Remodel, installing a new joist between two existing joists (to hold up edge of new subfloor). Beam+ledger at one end of joist bay, other end is space right now. Couple of questions:
- Single or double 2×8/2×10 for header? I figure single is okay since it’s less than 16″ span, and there’s a wire there that makes things crowded ow.
- How to secure header? May be able to squeeze in one joist hanger, definitely not enough space for two (header must swing into position). And toe-nails only possible from one side of header. Other options: 2×2 ledger w/3x16d nails? 2×2 ledger with 1/4″ wood screws? 2×4 ledger? Ledger+Simpson L50 framing anchor?
This discussion by engineers pooh-poohs the efficacy of 2×2 ledgers. But 2×4 ledger requires close to 50% notch (2×10 ripped down to 1.5″x8.25″ to fit under existing floor). This joist will be supporting tiled floor plus vanity with stone countertop….
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Maybe I'm not understanding exactly what you are trying to say, but wouldn't it be easier to cut the old subfloor back to an existing joist instead of going through all that to install a new one?
The remaining subfloor has bottom plate for partition wall, and the next room over. Floor height and slope are different between the two rooms (or will be once this is done).It would have been nice if the carpenter who left this mess had not cut back the subfloor beyond the last joist. It is only one of several messes he left.
Here's a pic....
Given I can only nail from one side, I could try this: 2x2 ledgers both sides, double the header material, toenail 3 16d nails per header board. That's 6x16d nails toe-nailed + 3x16d nails into each ledger. Assuming shear of 16d into 2x is 141# and toe-nailed gets 5/6 of that, that should give uplift of 705 + 423 = 1128# on each side. Of course the header is effectively a 4x6 with notching.... Better glue those ledgers too....
I often use structural screws in a situation like this because i can get into some places with a screw where there is no room to swing a hammer of fit a nailgun. glue can be good even if it doesn't do much for shear it can still help prevent squeeks. Simpson hangers help here at all? Easier than ledges and notchesTeh thing that determiones whether you need to double up the header is not the 16" length of the header, but the length of the joist that will be bearing on it. The total transferred load is equivalent to the length of that joist.
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Thanks, I think I'm going to go the ledger route because the only way to get the header into joist hangers would involve bending the flanges, perhaps quite a bit, and I couldn't get all the nails in. I think I'll use Simpson SDS screws on the 2x2 ledgers (predrilling everything of course), since lack of holding power of nails is the big criticism of this approach.As if it isn't hard enough....dirty great knot hole right where one set of toenails needs to go....Thanks for the tip on the header, I'd better double up....
If I'm interpreting the drawing correctly, how about this:
Cut and dry fit the header, and mark on it the position of the new joist. Pull it out and nail only the inaccessible side of a Simpson hanger to it in the new joist position.
Install the header. Cut the new joist to fit. Just slightly bend down the loose side of the Simpson hanger, and slide the new joist in. Push the joist firmly against the nailed side of the hanger, push the loose side of the hanger against the joist, and finish nailing everything off. A palm nailer is real handy for this.
-- J.S.
Yeah that is pretty much the plan. Header is dry-fitted, ledgers glued and screwed. Hopefully get everything nailed in tomorrow. The joist bay is tight, there's a sister (to be installed) and a DWV pipe (to be left alone) to be negotiated around.Problem with the hanger for the joist: all you can get anymore are those double-shear hangers, and the slanted nails can only go in with the joist in the hanger. I think I'd be better off with one of the old hangers, I could at least get all the nails into the header and half the nails into the joist. But I cannot get one of those old hangers to save my life.... I may try adding some holes to one of the double-shear hangers....
how about we just load it up with PL and blast it in with the framing nailer?
That'd work for me.
all this engineering to fit in one measly joist to catch part of the edge of some ply ...
and truthfully .. there's no need for a "solid joist" either ...
coupla cross braces 16oc would be plenty fine ... if the ply subfloor can span 16oc in one direction ... I'm pretty sure it'll span it in the other.
How'd the world not fall down before the simpson catalog got out of their marketing dept? ...
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
You're asking me to describe the rest of the mess that the carpenter left.....but I won't waste either of our time, I think a joist to reinforce things is easier than tearing out all of his stuff (glued!) and starting from scratch....
Yer missing the point
Like Popeye is what he is
Taylor does what he doesand Willie sings the refrain,"And that's all that they'll
ev
er
be."I notice Taylor thinks things through to the uttermost, and comes up with workable solutions to unique problems just like Robinson Crusoe. I probably couldn't make a living doing the same things the same ways, but they seem to get the job done - and overkill is definitely better than killing timeam i rambling tonight?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"and overkill is definitely better than killing time"
Ya got that right!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Yins sure are smart up 'ere.
Ya got that right!
jeff ....
even a bit smarter folk if ya move over right a few inches on the map ...
Like near "the Curve" ... where my Mom is from! Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
as in horseshoe?
no ...
in a boxcar.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Can you preload the unaccessible side with a twist strap on each end and then toe nail the accessible side. This would work to bolster, if I'm following you, notching the header over some 2x2 ledgers. Screwed definitely and have you tried that polyurethane construction adhesive? That stuff is incredible.
Looking at Simpson LTS/MTS/HTS, not sure how it would work.... Are you thinking of bending it around the header and nailing in from accessible side? Nailed to joist on inaccessible side?Every time I glue something, I find I have to take it apart :-).
Just forget the header and all the associated lumber. Cut out a piece of plywood a little less than the width of the bay and attach it with screws to the underside if the existing sub floor. that will give you something to attach the new section of subfloor to... With screws. I have a area like that in one of my apartments that has been supporting the back of a refrigerator for years. No problem.
another good idea.
and if U don't want or trust screws ...
just run the ply or lumber as Joe said ... on the "flat" ...
and run some 2x4 "ledgers" up tight ... and along side the joists.
once again ... glue the snot out of everything ... and no squeaks.
Jeff
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Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Edited 6/2/2005 10:17 pm ET by JEFF J. BUCK