Hi
I am about to install a ceramic tile floor for the first time , and would like some advice before I start.
I am planning on using a 45cm*45cm tile and would like to put it on a 45° angle to the room. Partly because the room is not quite square, and also because it should look nice. I will be putting it over an existing “manufactured stone” floor, which is in good stable condition.
After reviewing probably all the web sites (which all seem to be dedicated to amateurs) it seems that almost no amateur is putting their floor tiles on an angle.
Is it really that much more difficult, or simply an issue of requiring good, patient planning to get it to look right?
How much extra tile does putting the pattern at an angle require?
Second, most of the sites only mention putting the thinset directly on the floor, and sticking the tile down on top, one site (which in many ways appeared to give better than average advice) recommended spreading the thinset on the tile back. I am very interested in hearing opinions on this.
The main area which I am tiling has an attached very small patio, which I want to tile also. Because of the small dimensions (only 1.1 meter wide) I am considering using a smaller tile (30cm*30) on this area. These two floors are basically continuous since they have a door connecting them. Is the sudden change in tile size going to look good? What if I do those tile straight? Is it going to look disconcerting?
Thanks in advance
Replies
Check out johnbridge.com it's a pro site but they are more than happy to offer advice to a DIY'er,one of the best sites around for tile advice
Laying out your tile at 45 degrees is actually quite simple. I am not a tiler, but I did a very good job on a bathroom and a kitchen, both at 45. There is not much waste, actually. The cuts, around the edges, are exactly half a tile, so although it looks like you are using a lot of tiles, you really aren't.
I learned how by looking at the Home Depot "Tiling 1-2-3" book. Don't bother buying it; just look for a few minutes, and you will see how to do it.
I would try to explain now, but I just spent 13 hours installing windows and sheetrocking, and my mind has shut off.
Write again if you have a question.
Musashi
-Groucho Marx
"The main area which I am tiling has an attached very small patio, which I want to tile also. Because of the small dimensions (only 1.1 meter wide) I am considering using a smaller tile (30cm*30) on this area. These two floors are basically continuous since they have a door connecting them. Is the sudden change in tile size going to look good? What if I do those tile straight? Is it going to look disconcerting?"
It sounds like you are positive about what tile is going in the main area, and that you are sure it is going in diagonally.
Buy those tiles (and while you are at it, buy a few of the tiles you are considering for the smaller room). Cut a handful of them in half diagonally (enough to span the doorway.
Lay them on the floor halfway into the doorway and lay a few tiles away from the door. Leave spaces between them as if there is grout. Now lay the tiles you are considering for the small room in the small room. Lay 'em straight, stand back and take a look.
More often than not, I like that kind of thing. But there are those who will tell you I have no taste. Seeing is believing.
The worst that can happen is that you return the small tiles and you waste the cut tiles (if it turns out that you need larger "halfs").
Rich Beckman
Coming to the Fest? Don't forget pencils!!!!!!!!!!!!!
When you mention patio- If this is an exterior area (wet and freezing), you may not want to lay tile there.
Yes, apply the thin set to the floor, they set the tile on top. You can keep them more level this way.
Thanks All
I went to the Johnbridge site and found all sorts of useful information. They also have a quite useful calculator to figure out how much to buy. After looking at that, I think I will go with a herringbone pattern. Partly because after measuring my floor very accurately and sitting with a calculator for a few minutes, it is obvious that I am going to need more than half tiles (the floor is 4.6 tiles wide when placed on an angle) on one side so the remnants will be useless for the other side Musashi you were very lucky! The pattern in the herringbone will also reduce the effect caused by a somewhat lopsided room.As for the patio, freezing is not a major worry in the sunny, hot middle east :-) I am in Jerusalem, Israel and we do get about 1-2 snowfalls in a normal winter, but it but it normally disappears within a few hours.I agree that it will be worth it to get a few of the smaller tiles and find out how the change between the main area to the patio looks. The only problem is that I have to order these tiles so it may not be possible, but I will ask in the store.
YS, The smaller tiles (30cm) can normally be set directly on the troweled thinset, with the trowel having the equivalent of a 1/4" square notch.For the larger tiles, to get complete coverage it's often best to both trowel thinset on the substrate with the notched trowel, and also back-butter the tile with thinset prior to setting the tile. Ideally you want complete coverage of thinset on the back of the tiles.Set a tile, then slide the trowel underneath it and pry the freshly set tile off the floor. If you have complete coverage of thinset on the back of the tile, recomb the thinset, rebutter the back of the tile, and reset it and continue with your installation.If the 1/4" notched trowel, coupled with backbuttering the tiles, does not give you good thinset coverage on the back of the tile, then increase the trowel size to a 1/2" square notched trowel.If you have access to modified thinsets, use them instead of unmodified. If you can only get unmodified thinset you can modifiy it adding a liquid acrylic latex modifier to the dry thinset powder when you mix it up.Modified thinsets give better bond strength, which can be crucial in outdoor applications.Best, Mongo
As to fitting nicely in the room:
Actually, it wasn't luck. If it works out perfectly, great. But if it doesn't, then you simply add a border around the outside of your pattern. The border can be the same, or different tiles.
Enjoy,
Musashi
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx
You could make up a dozen fake tiles out of cardboard. Lay them out to judge the size / pattern change.
buic
How are you going to do a herringbone pattern with square tiles? Herringbone is done with rectangular tiles, and it can be a real b!tch to keep the rows straight. If this is your first tile job, I suggest you avaoid herringbone. Unless you're using the wrong name for the pattern.
John Bridge is an excellent site and very amateur friendly.
If you go with diagonal tiles, snap two layout lines from corner to corner (adjusted for the off-square room) and start installing from there.
You could do the large diagonal tiles in one room, use a threshold in the door of either different color tiles, or just tiles laid square, then switch to the smaller tile in the other room."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Opps, I hopscotch, not herringbone. Putting a border around first like Musashi suggested sounds like a good idea, and would reduce the wastage, but I also have a supporting beam to go around, some other "step" appendages in the wall, which a border will emphasize excessively.
I tried out a few patterns on their "tile installation editor" and this looks like it could work out a both efficiently, and avoid off angle look which the room has with a plain grid pattern. (there is a noticable difference in tile width from one side of the room to the other) Since I will be going to much larger tiles, there will be approximately 1/2 tiles on both sides and with a 45cm tile even a the 5 or 6 cm difference in room width wont be noticeable (which it is with the current 10 cm tiles)
Thanks again!
I guess hopscotch is where each row is offset 1/2 tile from the preceeding row. That can be a very effective and very simple layout to hide unsquare rooms.
If the supporting beam is smaller than 45 cm, just keep going straight with the border and let the tile swallow the beam. If it's something you can't hide, then just work around it. People will be much more tolerant of a slight pattern interruption for a beam (or column) than they would for out of square walls or a tile layout error. It will be like "Oh, that's interesting how he went around the column.""Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
According to the Johnbrice "tile calculator" hopscotch is the pattern where a large and small tile are intermixes with the large tile offset by the size of the small tile. The column is 2/3 the width of the tile and 1/2 the depth I think I will start laying from right next to the column. It is also located happily on the straightest, longest wall, but unhappily is sort of very visible since it is immediately opposite the entrance to the room, and next to an arched entrance to the hall way. I will definitely cut out a few "tiles" from cardboard to see how to lay out that area.
The tiles I am about to order are "laser cut" after firing and supposedly quite accurate. I will still check and lay them out on the floor before I start gluing to make sure that pattern looks right and that the colors work out properly. The tile both has direction and color variations in the pattern so I will lay out enough to get a "feel" for what it will look like before I stick it in place.
I'm doing a modified hopscotch floor now, much easier to lay as slight differences in tile size are nearly invisible.
Thanks for posting the picture, those tiles look very similar to what I am most likely going to use. I don't think that all 3 sizes were available though. It looks like that is going to be very nice when its done.
Those tiles are from Ceramica Magica, they look remarkably like slate, but without the hassles of the real thing. Not expensive either, around 4 bucks a sq. ft., contractor price.
Check several of your tiles to make sure that they're square before you start laying them.
Last year, I laid ~400 sq ft of 12" tiles - on the diagonal. The HO picked them out at Home Depot and I spent quite a bit of time finding a store that had enough boxes of the same manufacturing run so the color would match. The tiles were a tan/beige color and she wanted 1/4" black grout lines.
About halfway thru laying the tile, I was really struggling to keep the grout lines even semi straight. Finally, I wised up and measured the diagonals of several of the tiles. Lo and behold, they were all ~1/16" to 1/8" out of square. I had to take up and re-lay about 80 sq ft. It came out pretty decent (I think I'm the only one who can see the mistakes), but it was a huge PITA to do.
The moral of the story is to check your tile for square before you mix the thinset and have a plan to deal with out of square tiles.
"About halfway thru laying the tile, I was really struggling to keep the grout lines even semi straight. Finally, I wised up and measured the diagonals of several of the tiles. Lo and behold, they were all ~1/16" to 1/8" out of square. I had to take up and re-lay about 80 sq ft. It came out pretty decent (I think I'm the only one who can see the mistakes), but it was a huge PITA to do.
Dave,
If you used tile spacers, stop. Next time snap grid lines on the floor. Have the grids be about the size of 2-3 tiles plus 2-3 grout lines. Example, if the tiles are 18" squares with 1/8" grout lines, have the grids be 18 + 1/8 + 18 + 1/8 =36-1/4" squares.
Follow the grid lines to keep your overall lines straight, and massage the variations in size of the individual tiles to keep the whole floor looking sharp as a whole.
Rectified tiles are easier to set.
With non rectified tiles, tile spacers can throw a floor off the intended layout lines in no time at all.
Mongo
Mongo -
Now you tell me!! - lol
This was one my few floor tile jobs that covered a significant area (dining room & entry). I had done her galley kitchen and it came out just fine but (in hindsight) that was because I didn't have any runs long enough to get myself in deep doo-doo.
I doubt if I'll be doing any more tile floors anyway. After I finished that one, my knees ached for a week.
I just completed a "tile rug" 4'x5' layout in our galley kitchen remodel. I used 3/4 hickory as a border and laid it around 1/2" of hardi backer glued and screwed to the sub (1") floor. The rest of the floor is prefinished oak 4" strips. Came out ok, my first time with small decorative tiles along the border was a pita. The mastic for the tile wanted to squeeze up between the small tile pieces and keeping them straight was fun too.
The hickory is a nice break from the oak and gives it contast to the lighter tile. Trying to do it myself and keeping ahead of the drying of the mastic made it a little more difficult as well.
I did lay it out dry but was no margin for error and trying to move tiles that were set previously was fun. Space did not allow me to build the tile pattern then add the border, I had to set the border hickory first then tile as the hickory exteded under the toe kick of the cabinets.
What I learned from that was I should of set the tile while I had the cabinets out of the kitchen and before I started the flooring and covered it with some ply until I had the cabs set and the appliances in. Live and learn.
Good luck
Jim
The initial part of that learning curve can be a bit tricky.Yup, I been dere, and I dun dat.<g>Mongo
First advice:
Go to the taunton website, and find the book that they have on tiling. Buy it - the Taunton books I have are uniformly good, and much better than the stuff designed for beginners. HD carries some of them now.
Second advice:
Smaller tiles are a lot easier to deal with, especially if the substrate isn't perfectly level. If you do big tiles, you may be having to back-butter each tile with a different amount to get the corners all at the same level.