I just picked out the cabinets for my kitchen at Lowes. In the course of conversation the salesman mentioned that he might leave Lowes and become a cabinet installer for them. He had been an installer in the past but had just moved and was starting out all over again. Thought a straight job might be nice for a while but isn’t so sure now.
Anyway, I’ll be installing my own soon. I’ve hung cabinets before but never on any scale as to get really efficient at it.
What struck me was his claim as to how much installers were getting. Using his numbers, an installer and a helper would be bringing in about $1000 a day.
Based on what I’ve heard froom people who have installed for HD, this sounds like a real stretch. I know that the install’s for one of the lumberyards that sells installed cabinets around here has a price plan where a decent installer and helper might drag down $500 a day.
Anybody have experience with installing Cabinets for Lowes? How has it worked out?
Replies
What kind of numbers are you using?
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I've only ever installed a kitchen as part of a bigger job so I've never really broken it down into Boxes or feet. I just figured out how long it would take me.
We didn't talk numbers of boxes or running feet or anything like that. The kitchen he described would take me maybe 5 days with help. He claims he could do it in three. The install labor was almost $7K.
I know at least one guy I know who is installing some middle of the road kitchens. Usually 10-15 Boxes up and 10-15 Down with the hardware, crown and fillers and such and they are getting around $1500 per. Usually takes them three days with everything.
A friend of mine keeps telling me there is money in just installing the cabinets but I get mixed signals elsewhere.
I have no experience with Lowes.
HD (and Lowes I'd bet) is a mixed bag. I did about 40 cabinet installs for HD last year (mostly kitchens). One store was (and is) good to work for, the other stunk.
The work I do for HD is supposed to be worth $750/day (for a two person crew). It always takes longer than their guidebook suggests, so we average more like $500/day. Not too bad for jobs where they line up the customers, and overhead is lower.
Might be a good gig...might not. Depends of how good the designers are and the attitude of the local store management.
"more like $500/day. Not too bad for jobs where they line up the customers, and overhead is lower."
My opinion only... contractors get paid more money for lining up the customers and dealing with the overhead issues than they do for leveling boxes and driving screws.
HD, Lowes, and anyone else farming out this work is of course making a tidy profit on whatever you do for them. If there's no way to work directly for the customer, then maybe it's worth it, but for anyone long term in the trades, get your own customers and your own business going, and cut out the middleman... the box store. They are demonstrating to all of us that quite a bit of money can be charged for cabinet installs, and they are hoping that we'll work for them instead of charging that much ourselves.
All true.They did fill out our schedule enough that we no longer had to worry if we would get most of the jobs we bid. We were busy enough to get our price on the other work we took.Working for the big box they pay me about $45/cab and they charge $75. Now I charge more on my other work.
I was approached by Lowes. All installs are quoted to the designer who then marks it up. You do not get to pick your customers as they sell to anyone with a credit card... and if the designer screws up and you have to make 10 additional trips back to a screaming insane customers house, you get to do it all for the original quote.
Needless to say I passed on the offer.
Oh and if the customer complains about you or your work the money they refund comes off your quote... they like giving money back and customers know it.
How do they treat things like filler panels and the like? Are they included in the per box price?
Cab price includes fillers, knobs/pulls, toekick, and oh yeah, the cab. End panel & skins extra, crown/ lt. rail extra, etc.
so the "per cab" price includes everything else?
I start with a "per box" price ... and take it from there.
to me ... everything counts as "another box" ... each filler ... toe ... run of crown ... skins... accessory ... etc. Then ... I add for appliances ... even if they're being installed by someone else ... I'll have to move them sooner or later. SubZero's add a guy for a full day. I always add a full day for knobs, door and drawer adjustment.
Starting out at $45 or $50 gets me pretty close ... then a few add ons and we're there.
In my area ... $300 day/ $1500 week pays the bills quite nicely. If ... it's steady.
although ... my $300/per is going to go up to $320/per or $1,600/week after I spent some time last coupla weeks adding up all my gas receipts from last year!
I agree with who else said a nice stream of sub work at $300/day helps the ebb and flow of full remodel jobs. I also find it much easier to pick and choose the full remodel jobs ... and charge them out at a good rate ... when I know there's a boat load of sub work waiting to be done somewhere.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I do some installs for a local kitchen and bath shop, and the owner "recommends me" to the home owner and they pay me direct , I get $5.50 a unit inch and that includes crown ,fillers ,toe kick and end panels. Most kitchens run about 200 or 300 unit inches at 200 unit inches thats $1100.00 for a day and a half by myself.
Is that unit inch of wall, or measuring base then uppers seperately?If there is no crown or end panels, still the same unit price?A 10' run of cabinets, is that 120 unit inches or 240 unit inches?
So... Funny coincidence... I was in Lowes today and got the idea in my head to inquire as to what their terms and requirements were for becoming a "lowes certified cabinet installer".
I walked up the the cabinet salesman and explained to him that I was interested in some information about becoming an installer. He was actually very upbeat and helpful. He led me into the back, through a labrynthine office and hallway maze to a door. Through the door was a room roughly the size of my bathroom inhabited by 6 people all crammed elbow to elbow with a computer in front of each of them. (how would ya like to have that to look forward to every day on your morning drive?)
He got the attention of one of the gnomes and told him "this fellow would like to find out about becoming an installer." The gnome reached into a drawer, pulled out a piece of paper, walked over and handed it to me without a word, went back to his computer, and proceded to dutifully ignore me. I looked the form over, it seemed to be an application, wanting me to list my name, company name, licenses held, what insurances I had and how much, trade organizations I belonged to, etc... I naturally had a plethora of questions; What licenses does Lowes want me to have? How much insurance does lowes want me to carry? etc. etc. So I stood there in the doorway waiting to catch his eye... and waiting... and waiting... Gee this guy's good ! He should get a job as a waiter at Dennys.
Finally his phone rang and he needed to ask one of the other gnomes to answer the caller's questions. Gnome #2 told him, "Ok, but how about you take care of this guy while I'm at it?" indicating me. 'I already took care of him" he shot back.
"Um, actually I've got some questions". I said in my most disarming and courteous manner.
"About what?" he snapped back... Wow, does this guy's charisma have no limits?
"Well, for instance, this appears to be an application, what am I supposed to do with it? return it to you? Fax it to someone? Also, exactly what does Lowes require of me regarding insurance and licenses 'n stuff?
"What do you do?" he asked.
"Carpentry" I cheerfully responded.
'Carpentry? We don't install anything like that!" Oh goody! just when I thought it couldn't get any funner...
"Oh. Lowes doesn't offer cabinet installation?" I asked, innocently.
"Well, yeah, we do that!" he snorted, derisively.
"That's carpentry." I answered. My strategy of 'just be nice, there's nothing to be gained by turning this into an adversarial relationship' had begun to slip.
Fortunately, gnome #2 (who appeared to have been thoroughly enjoying the show) finally stepped in and suggested that he give me "Mary's" contact information.
"Yeah, you need to talk to Mary, she's the one in charge of the installers." said my new buddy as he opened up a rolodex and showed it to me. I waited for about 5 seconds...for him to offer me a pen or something. I guess I was supposed to just memorize her number, so I finally asked him if I might borrow a pen. Fortunately Gnome # 2 jumped to my rescue before my gnome could fly into the rage that I had so obviously just provoked. I jotted down Mary's number, thanked everyone for their time and assistance and beat a hasty retreat...
I was never able to get ol' mary on the phone. At this time I'm sitting here, next to my phone, anxiously awaiting her return phone call, like a girl on prom night....
" If I were a carpenter"
I wouldn't be surprised if the gnomes make more than the installers, plus they probably get at least some level of bennies, and actually get a paycheck, not some piecework rate minus the company's mistakes and givebacks.
When I went through the drill the local folks were great. We live in a small community and I shop there often so I know or have seen most of them. My deal was with the regional guy.
He wanted to interview me personally and give me the forms. I asked if he wanted to fax them to me so I could have them filled out in advance, no we want to interview first.
I made an appointement with him to meet him at a store, 40 miles from my shop, and do the interview. He said to call him around 7AM to confirm his location. I cleared my schedule for the day and called at 7. No answer so I left a message. I called at 7:30, no answer so I left a message. At 7:50 he calls and says he has a problem at another store so he is headed there. He will call me in 30 minutes to let me know where to meet him.
At 9:00 I call and again leave a message. At 10:00 I call and leave a message. He calls me at 10:20 and says he has to go to another store and plans to head up to my store (5 minutes from my shop) and I can meet him there. I ask about what time. "Well, I am going to stop at the Delaware store and then head up there so maybe around 1PM. I will call you at 1 to confirm where I am".
Mind you through all of this he has never once said, sorry for the delay, man can you believe this, geez I am sorry to put you through this, nothing. So I am thinking, which by this time all my calls have been made and my paperwork caught up so I have little else to do, I wonder what happens if I have a problem with Lowes or a job? Will this guy be equally as responsive to me then?
The other think that slowly sunk in is I left the corperate world because of self important jerks that thought the worlds time frame revolved around them and the sun set directly in the crack of their ####. This guy is the same. Why volunteer to work for another one for money that was less than ideal by a mile.
Anyway the guy never calls. I call him at 2:30 and he answers. He opens with "yeah well I haven't got there yet so it will be a little while". I say " listen, I appreciate the oppurtunity but I can see our two companies don't do business in the same manner and I think I will have to pass". For the first time I get what sounds like a moment of emotion "what? Look I have been really busy with this new product roll out an I have to manage 15 stores so I will get up their as soon as possible. You understand that don't you?"
I said " I understand that at your request I cleared a day out of my schedule and passed up making money to interview with you an hour from my location when we could have waited a few days and done it here. I understand that I have been sitting beside the phone all day waiting for you to finally keep on of the half dozen appointments you have made with me and I have had enough of it".
He say he is sorry but he is a busy man. How about if he just faxes the paper work to me and I fill it out, fax it back and we can meet on his next scheduled visit to my area? (what a concept) I say thanks, but no thanks. I have frankly seen all I need about how Lowes opperates and again I appreciate it but will pass. He say (I really found this unbelievable) "look we really are looking for good installers and why don't I just fax this to you and you think it over. It would really help me out because we need someone in your area". I gave him my fax number and said I didn't think so but I would look at it. Never got a thing from the guy. DanT
that is 120 unit inches not deducting for appliances not including counter tops because in my area every one uses granite or solid surface
I do like specializing in cabinet & trim work, and--like you--I go for a mix of sub vs. "my own work." Tore out a HD kitchen last week, pulled off for floor & paint work. Worked on a bath remodel of "my own" Friday and this Monday. Tuesday I'll be back on the HD job (1 day putting in cabinets 1 day on the other stuff). HD again Thurs & Friday this week, then 3 weeks on "basswood jobs."I'll be spending two weeks putting in cabinet displays for a Menards showroom (in a different market than the HD--so they don't care--I asked).
Edited 4/2/2006 8:47 pm ET by basswood
At $500 a day, figuring a 60/40 split, that works out to $300 for one and $200 for the other per day.
Another way is $37.50 per hour for the lead and $25 per hour for the help for an 8 hour day.
Soooo.....
Who provides the truck? Tools? Phone? Fax? Gas? Vehicle insurance? Workers comp, etc.?
Oh, those pesky income taxes, too.
Yeah, you can get a $10 an hour helper, but you just might get what you pay for.
Sure seems like a sucky deal to me- especially if you are treated as a subcontractor and have to pay your own way.
Sure seems like a sucky deal to me- especially if you are treated as a subcontractor and have to pay your own way.
That's kinnda how I see it. But I keep hearing how much money is in cabinet installs. And yet, guys who I have faith that they know what they are talking about Like Jeff are saying that it's tough to break the $300 a day mark.
How much money for who? The contractor or the big box?
The big box is gonna get their cut. First.
As an employee, $300 a day ain't half bad.
As a subcontractor carrying the insurance, truck expenses and tool burden, plus your wages out of that $300, no way. Who pays the insurance on the helper? The numbers get even smaller if you have to treat your helper as an employee.
Of course, you could screw your potential helper and treat him as a sub, just like the big box wants to do to you, but I suspect they have mechanisims in place to prevent that.
Sure sounds like a race to the bottom to me.
$300 a day after expenses represents about a $1200 a month net paycut as compared to what the Army pays me.
That's figuring a truck and it's operating costs, insurance both business and disability of an appropriate amount. Tool wear and tear, office expenses and the like.
Around here it would be no big deal to pay a guy $12 an hour as a sub, but I won't do it. It's alos no big deal to hire an illegal but I won't do that either.
Most of you are just confirming what already thought. There might be some merit to using it to fill up your schedule so you get the price you want on other jobs, but to just concentrate on that? Not a money maker.
I looked into a year or so ago. The local people wanted me so they had someone reliable, the regional guy was a jerk off and thought he owned a kingdom. It went downhill from there.
I figured maybe we could do one or two a month with me and a helper freeing me to do more business work in the down time. I also thought since we do plumbing and electrical too and Lowes doesn't we could pick that stuff up and offset the difference.
The money is simply not there. I figure and hour a cabinet or space or appliance. My usual rate is $50 per. For them it averaged out to be $28. And if there is a problem going back to get something or going back to install the new cabinet door pays the same. $32 per. If something is forgotten you are on the hook to go get what you need to fix it. They will give you the part but no money, no expenses. It might be different in a large area but here in cowville it didn't add up.
The insurance deal you already mentioned but they also wanted 3mil vs the 1 mil I carry. Any install fee you see listed in the store the installer generally gets 66-70%. DanT
So when they say tile installed for $6-7 per SF, the guy doing it is getting $4-5??
At best. The door guy in my area gets $65 for a storm door and Lowes charges $110. They pay $45 for a dishwasher install. Just for example. DanT
At the core, the Subcontract install thing looks inviting. I've done it before. But it really all boils down to how well run the other end of the program is.
I used to install for a stair shop that had a day rate of $400. You never made $400 for your day because every single job had some issue.
I burned through maybe six or eight shops until I found three steady ones that had their acts together. Thier day rate was about $300 but because they had everything wired tight I could usually make about $350 or $375 a day.
Just recently a friend agreed to install for a chain of local yards. He's losing his a$$ so far as they missed a ton of stuff so a three day job is up to five so far.
But it really all boils down to how well run the other end of the program is.
I burned through maybe six or eight shops until I found three steady ones that had their acts together.
You and I both know that the chances of Lowes or HD having their act together is slim and none.
Can you imagine having to go back to a job for free to install parts forgotten or misordered by the designer ?
carpenter in transition
Some stores have decent designers and we work with a good one. We get the designs in advance, go over them on site, change or add to the order as needed--before the order is even placed. We seldom have to return to a job for any reason, but if we do--and it is the store's fault--they pay an extra trip charge.
Wanna bet the Lowes at 33 and Freemansburg Ave doesn't have their SH#$ wired tight?
we've started working with a guy there who is in charge of dealing with contractors. he has actually been pretty good. his name is Mike Symanovich.
carpenter in transition
You still working for Butz?
ya. 21 years.
http://www.butz.com
only 19 more to go.
sigh........
carpenter in transition
I'm sure location plays a part in it ...
but I've been subing myself as a cab installer for a while now ...
I've gone thru quite a few different K and B places ... and it's been an uphill fight to get my minimum $300/day. I work solo so that's not split up ... I could see getting a helper up to speed and hitting $500/day on the right jobs.
I don't see how any HD or Lowes could charge more for an install than these established K and B dealers though.
I went to a HD open house years ago when they first hit my area ... forget the details ... but I remember I didn't like their requirements ... something was goofy about listing them on my insurance ... it was more then just supplying an insurance certificate ...
Anyways ... I have a buddy that's slow on work. Maybe I'll tell him to go in and figure it out for us.
$1000/day ... I'm in! but for some reason ... I think it'd be closer to $200 in this area.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
You are right their requirements are a PITA. 40 page contract, background & credit check and BS like that.
>>background and credit check and BS like that<<
why is it BS if they dont want to hire child molesters and scam artists that are entering their customer's homes to do God knows what?
remember, the big box is liable if someone they hire does some illegal activity in customer's home,they are taking due care to weed out the criminals!
Nothing terribly wrong with the background checks. I've been asked for liability and work comp. ins., etc. before. Never been asked by anyone else to prove I have good enough credit to install a cabinet. The screening was less rigorous to get a job teaching children than installing cabinets.The application packet and the contract (43 pages long IIRC) were ridiculous.The bigger the bureaucracy the more layered and redundant the process.
I went to a HD open house years ago when they first hit my area ... forget the details ... but I remember I didn't like their requirements ... something was goofy about listing them on my insurance ... it was more then just supplying an insurance certificate ...
Additionally named as insured maybe? I think that's what they call it. Builders first source wanted the same to install for them.
As I understand it, it means you get to insure them on your jobs as well.
I used to do a lot of Stair rail installs and I always wondered who came up with $300 a day for a baseline for installers. When I started installing that was the day rate. You can live on it but you'll never get rich.
why would anyone who is proficient at kitchen installs let someone else steal the sales commission and mark up? I make more money selling the product than I do installing it.
if your going into business for yourself why do it half way?
if your going into business for yourself why do it half way?
The goal is a little different. I have almost Zero interest in remodeling of any kind and maybe even less in running a kitchen and bath place.
I'm looking towards something else but should the time ever come ( I'm not so sure it will at this point. At least not until 2007. But that's another issue) I'll need a means of keeping the money coming in to support other endeavors.
That's why I would look at subbing.
I'm digesting as much as I can now and sorting it all out so that when the time comes I've got a solid plan.
Hey all,
I'm from the hudson valley and have worked for many kitchen places as both an empoyee and a sub. Most places around here won't pay mor than $30 - $35 / hr per guy. I think it's decent but I won't work piecework because there is always an issue, a question, meetings , trips back to punch out the job, etc.
If lowes and home depot is paying $45 / box then one must hussle. You can make money at that rate but no extras and no fertin' around. those are builder rates for sub contractors. Cabinet work has always been fun to me so I keep doing it but around here, direct work for home owners is hard. every kitchen place wants to sell the install too. The best way I've found is to sell the whole kitchen job to the customer (design and all), buy the cabinets yourself and build it into the job. Gotta have a good relationship with a designer to let them bring your customer into a showroom without trying to steal them.
Kitchens are always good fill in work. always indoors (winter and rain)
later,
Jason
Not Lowes, but another borg-store here in Canada. They required proof of ....
Liability insurance (which I have)
Business licence (which I have)
Proof of WCB coverage(which I have)
References (which I have)
but then they also wanted.....
Copies of tax returns,
Lists of clients
and a whole bunch of other personal financial information which was quite frankly well outside the realm of their freakin business
And even if you decide that that is OK, keep in mind that at least some of their employees get approached each and every day to do plumbing, hang doors, build decks etc on the side for cash. And they do it. Don't kid yerself
I suppose these employees only chose the folks who cannot afford to pay the big bucks. OR NOT. (ask yerself if the top-payers are skimmed off the top by the salesmen/cash-installers, just who is left) I daresay that this fella was likely already installing on the side, and if he's not, he's likely so naive that I wouldn't believe a word of what he said.
Or maybe he was lookin to hire you as a "helper" for next to nothing.
So where, in the grand scheme of things, does any business model suggets that you work for your cash-economy competition?
It ain't gonna be in the index of yer manual of business practice under "clever things to do"
Some folks may feel otherwise.
Eric