I just got a quote that seems high. $1400 for 30 lineal feet of crown molding and 13 feet of light rail. 10 corners in the crown, only 2 corners in the light rail. This seems to pay for a lot of hours… am I missing something?
I can get additional quotes, but how hard is it to do this myself?
I have the chop saw, could buy a pin nailer, am reasonably able.
When doing cabinet crowns, do you install the backer cleat first, then the crown to it? Do you assemble the joints first, then attach to the cabinets, or attach to the cabinets one section of crown at a time? Best way to assemble the corners – pinned and glued?
Thanks.
Edited 1/27/2006 10:04 am ET by Mister Moose
Replies
MM,
Cabinet crown might /can be harder than you might think,and quite different than room crown molding. Think more along the lines of furniture making . How finished is the room ? Are the counters on ? Finished floor ? It more time to work in a finished room . More liabilty . How available is the crown? How long to get more . Was an extra piece ordered . Mistakes happen!
Buy the pinner get some spring clamps, go for it . You might learn something about that risk/reward thing .
You can do it either way, each way has its own merits . Are the cabinets installed? Why didn 't the cabinet installer put up the crown .
Welcome to the fourm , fill out your profile , it does help , lots of information here .
Good luck with the crown , take some pictures and post.
DAVE
The cabinets are in, countertops in, floors finished, spec house in a slower market in New England.
While waiting for it to sell, I'm adding a little extra to the house in several areas. So no hurry.
I'm aware of "You get what you pay for" and "It takes longer than you might think" but I'm also aware of "I'm busy so I'll bid it high and if I get it it's gravy."
I was expecting it to take a half to 3/4 day, and be priced accordingly.
I can't seem to get into the profile section, will update that when able.
MM,
$1400 might sound a little high , maybe , I don't know , 1/2 or 3/4 day sounds low . I'd probably figure two days , labor only , $750 . There are no 1/2 days , unless you got another 1/2 day to go to . Personally I hate going to another job setting -up only to break it all down again in an hour or three . But that is just me .
The profile thing , just under the main header at top of page little grey letters , right under HOUSE CHAT .
Go get that pinner and let us know how it turns out !
yes and no. Depends. Depends on who you talk to and what you want. You left out way too much info. Who supplies the trim? where are you located? On the 26th floor of a high rise with a freight elevated that can be use only from 9:00-4:00? Who buys the material/picks it up and finishes it to match. I just saw cherry crown for $5.75 per lin ft at a local hardwood company. Not a large profile either, but would work in a kitchen. Do you want a shelf at the top of the cabinet to be at the same height of the crown. If it's not in stock, they carge $100 for a set up charge if the have the knives( some places charge $350 per setup). If not, it's $10.00 per inch per knife for a custom profile, plus setup(they keep the knives when done). What happens if you supply the moulding and there is not enough(even though you think there is) or he custs a piece wrong(it happens). Will he come back... for free?
These are real questions that come into play. I know, I've had all of them happen to me.
10 corners in the crown
I would say your estimate of 1/2 - 3/4 of day is way off. If you don't want putty in the joints, it would be a 2-3 day job.
Is the light rail already "L" shaped, or will have to be installed with angle brackets?
--------------------------
It's only satisfying if you eat it.
I saw 30' and thought easy dayThen I saw - Oh yeah, there's light rail too, could take another day, don't know...Then I hit the part about dozens of corners and pictured myself stuck in there for a lonnnnnng time
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yep, for some reason when two pieces of crown molding intersect, a tear opens in the space-time continuum. Hours disappear, feet tire from standing on the ladder, and swear words are invented.--------------------------
It's only satisfying if you eat it.
that's exactly what I'm finding out........and my molding is quite plain.....just cove, and it is a real bear ......for me,anyway !I swear thestuff changes shape.....
I pay my trtimguy 50 dollqars a wall per ron. If it's a stacked crown 0more than one piece) I pay for each run. Seems to work out pretty good, IE;, he makes good money on the straight wall-to-wall cuts and backs up a little on the chopped-up parts. If you can't find somebody more confident in their ability to run this you're asking in the wrong place. Jim
If I understand you correctly, that would price this job at $850.
No one has commented on how to best
1) join the corners of crown
2) attach the crown piece by piece, or as an assembly?
3) screw the backer cleat to the crown and then screw to the cabinet or screw the backer cleat to the cabinet and then shoot the crown on?
(I see the update profile button, it just doesn't work on my PC. something wrong I don't have the time to muddle with. I can't sign in to ebay, hotmail, or many sites right now, major PITA. Tried Cookie settings, etc already)
MM,
Use the backer to make a sub-frame assembly on a flat sturdy work table , apiece of 3/4 ply ontop of some studs works . Mirror the cabinet tops , cut and fit your crown with miters only , no copes . Put the subframe together with pocket screws or biscuits /glue and clamps . Attach the crown to the sub-frame using glue and headless pins and clamps,or spring clamps. Use the spring clamps to hold both inside and out side miters together . Set aside let dry start on next assembly . Screw the whole assembly to the top of the cabinet . To do it the other way will not get as good of results , but it can be done,just will look .... not as good as possible .
There have been some comments in that direction.But part of what you fail to understand is that every job is different and you are trying to compare internet generic info to a specific bid. What we do know is that there is a reason why this guy has priced it on the high side. Maybe he is taking your pants down and maybe there is more here than what you describe. I don't know.Sometimes I use Collins pin clamps on the corners, sometimes not. Sometimes I assemble a few piecs and then install the assembly, sometimes not. Sometimes I use a backer cleat, sometimes it is a waste of time. There are a lot of variables in crown and they are more pronounced in prefinished.So without being there, I can't give you a definitive answer to your specific questions. The finished job can look good or not
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Maybe he is taking your pants down and maybe there is more here than what you describe. I don't know.
That must be one of those "regional" things!! lol
Hey Moose,
maybe the guy just thinks you are a pain in the arse and is charging accordingly.
I'm in New England, maybe close who knows. I'll come and do it AND teach you for that price if your in my hood.
Go for it and see what happens, or get another bid.
My guess is that it would be less expensive to pay the guy than you try it and goof it up.
But you never know, maybe you will find something you are good at.
Not exactly something to cut your teeth on though.[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
I think that's a phrase I picked up out west.Which sounds better? He's trying to take your pants down
or
He's trying to screw you
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The former; it's got class and subtlety![email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Hope so. I let that line slip out once, telling a female client that my plumber wanted her involved in a certain decision that was oing to cost plenty. "He doesn't want you to think he's trying to take your pants down or anything like that"She instantly understood and carried on with the conversation in context, never missing a beat. meanwhile, I was beating my self up inside - "what in the world did you say it like that for P"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That's just too good!
Calls for one of those rotflmao thingies.
Good client though, to roll throught at!
E[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Someday she can tell her grandchildren about the Character who built her house
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Moose,
I always cope inside corners, measure outsides (angles) and miter appropriately... I glue and clamp outsides.
I work right to left, coping the right (unless it's an outside miter) and either butting or mitering the left... I generally install piece by piece. The only time I preassemble crown is when there is a return or a piece so small that I think a pin might split it.
Most of the time, we don't use backer... 99.9% of the time we chaulk the ceiling joint.
If I were you I'd get a few more estimates. There might be more here than you think...
The questions you're asking make it obvious that you don't install a lot of crown... and this is a spec house. Crown moulding is very obvious... meaning that there's never any furniture hiding it.
A good crown job will give prospective buyers the "warm and fuzzy" feeling that you want them to get... whereas a bad job will look shoddy and make the rest of your hard work "suspect"... no matter how good it is.
I hope this helps.
uuhh, thanks, but I'd have to fire me since I'm doing it.....but I won't rehire me ...:>)
I've fired myself on a few occasions, only to come back--just like my wife!
its amazing how little gets done by me when I'm around
It's in a spec house, molding is on hand with an extra length, prefinished stock item but would take 5 days to order more.
The light rail is 'L' shaped and is easily screwed on from behind. No way it's more than an hour to cut 4 pieces with only 2 joints.
Dozens of corners??? there's 10 (ten) in the crown.
I used the word dozens for hyperbole` to make the point. There's a good two days work for a good man if everything goes well. A problem can add a day. I can remember a kitchen that took two of my best men two days to run the pre-finished crown around. You are definitely underestimating the time involved.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
MM
In answer to your ?s: $1400 seems a bit high. I think he is trying to squeeze you in and wants to make it worth his while, or your house is in a remote location. I would charge $780 for the 12 hours I figure it would take to do the job plus a short day trip charge of $85. We're in StL Mo by the way.
Definitely attach the nail backers to the cabs first and then the crown, one section at a time. When installing the crown leave the last 1 1/2 feet from the corners or so loose and pin the corners first, then go back and secure everything. Always use wood glue or polyurethane on the corners. Some guys run a bead of hot glue down the back side of the outside mitres if there is sufficient space to get the gun into. Also, it is much easier to have a helper if you are not used to doing cabinet crown. Good luck
sully
"but how hard is it to do this myself?"
pay me $1,350.00 for the education and I'll tell ya how to do it ...
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
pay me $1,350.00 for the education and I'll tell ya how to do it ...
Silly me, I thought that was what this board was for....
I'm just here to find high paying easy money jobs ....
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
It would be a mistake to presume that you are equally capable as the tradesman just because you think you're too smart to pay $1400 for the job. My advice would be to get at least two more quotes. When dealing with the next two tradesmen, be polite and don't project that you could do it yourself. We don't appreciate this.
If you intend to "save" $1400 by doing it yourself, maybe you should pick up a book or two.
I noticed Home Depot had some idiot-proof(?) corner blocks for homeowners to just run the crown into square. Maybe you should do that.
C'mon it's a spec house and maybe MMoose is the owner. Around here that means he's an expert.
Go for it Moose, report back on how much the new crown costs, and also what the guys new estimate is.
I love this stuff.
crown molding on top of cabinets is not a difficult job, but takes a lot of patience, after wood filler and lots of nails are not options when working with prefinished moldings, light rail is easier, but still precise work
if your crown doesnt have a mounting rail, then start by installing one around the tops of the cabinets. i use scrap 5/8 sheet material about 2 inches wide, pinnailed flush with front of he cabinet boxes where there are door and recessed 3/4 inch on the sides, this will give the same reveal on the fronts and sides after the doors are installed
i always start with a corner cabinets, most are 24 by 24, the crown piece is usually about 16 1/2 inches, so i cut a piece about 17, with a 22 1/2 inside miter on one end, then hold the piece in place and mark the other end
a couple of scrap pieces about an foot long can be used to check the miter angle and the length, when all is correct, pinnail and glue the piece to the mounting cleat and go to the next
i never measure crown exactly, i always hold a piece in place and mark it
miters are always glued with ordinary carpenters glue, and the joint is held tightly with tape while the glue dries, i rarely pin miters
cutting the crown is the trickiest part, i always cut the miters with the material held upside down and backwards, with a block of some kind to hold the crown at the right angle on the saw
Edited 1/28/2006 9:38 am ET by steve
Edited 1/28/2006 9:38 am ET by steve
Consider it this way Mr. Moose.
If you were a quality minded talented carpenter would installing crown on kitchen cabinets in a house where people are living for 850 flat rate appeal to you?
Could take 2 days if things go well--decent wage 400/day.
If it takes 3... not so good wage... you lose money on the job. IE--after expenses pay yourself 10$/ hour.
A smart carpenter will not take the risk of losing money.
At 1350 he knows he will get paid and his daily portion of expenses and taxes are paid.
A carpenter without the sense to price small jobs up just in case--likely is less talented. Thinking is thinking--whether it is on the job--or during the planning process.
Guys that are just starting out or classed as handymen will be the only lower prices on this type of job. You can take a guess at their skill level and make your own judgement.
Want a better value? Add some real work into the deal--find something else that needs doing and make it a week long job.
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Get a couple more bids. My price would be about half what you were quoted and I try to make $90.00/hr.
I run crown in one or two kitchens in a typical week though. I have a jig that holds the most common crown sizes "upside-down" for me. The jig fence is the height of my largest crown "rise" and the curb at the front of the jig table is set the distance away from the jig fence equal to the largest crown "run" (horizontal projection).
I have inserts for the jig for smaller crown sizes. With a good jig, good miter saw, a great blade and years of experience installing crown on cabinets...it should only take a day or less.
I glue and micropin (1" 23 guage) the crown to the cabinets or backing & glue & micropin the miters. On cabinets, mitered inside corners work better and are faster than coped corners IMO.
Thanks for all the helpful replies.
I didn't want to write a novel describing this simple job, but it is simple. There are no freight elevators, complex corners, uneven ceiling to match. Its just a few pieces of crown going from the cabinet top to thin air.
Yes, I respect skilled tradesmen. They work far faster than I can, and I only have two hands and 24 hours. I am too much of a perfectionist, so I am usually the slowest (but most dependable) solution. That said, I don't want to, and can't afford to overpay. One of the foundations to any business is controling your costs. And the market is slowing.
I know guys don't prefer to take small jobs. Sometimes that's all you have. However, I own the subdivision, and any carpenter who overbids me must not be interested in any repeat work. I think I'm fairly easy to work for: I demand good work, but get out of your way and pay you when you're done. I'll keep you supplied with material and solve problems as they come up. I'm always around or reachable.
Sometimes small jobs come up where it will take 5 hours to chase someone down, get a price, not show up, reschedule, etc, etc. It can be easier to just do it. I happen to have a little time these days, so I was contemplating doing this if no one will take the job. I've made furniture, installed trim, own the tools... so I was thinking of jumping of into the "How hard can it be?" abyss. From past experience, I know it can be fairly easy or a nightmare. Thankfully, the nightmares are in the minority.
Very interest thread to me, I've been searching for informations for installing cabinet & crown molding up to ceiling for a long time in order to decide if I can diy. Bought a least 3 books from Taunton about remodeling kitchen, yes they all show how to install cabinets, but none tells me how to install cabinet crown. :-(
Done some home renovation, bath rooms, room crown, hardwood floor, baseboad, window trim.., not sure I can handle kitchen cabinet crown because they are finished and they have to be cut accurately, anyway here is my takes;
1. I'll use finished soffits on top of 39" cabs to bring wall cabs close to 8' ceiling, I don't want to nail molding on face frames, this also give me some room to accomodate the unevenness of ceiling.
2. nail / screw cleats/backing on top of cabs to accept the thickness of soffit pieces before installing wall cabs, soffit will be glued and pin on backing and flush with face of cabs. backing does not have to be continue pieces, right?
3, then install crown trim on face of soffits up to ceiling using the tips I found here.
I'm not sure I got it all figured out or not? or try to find a realiable trim carpenter?
I've made furniture, installed trim, own the tools...
so why the big questions here? If you've done all that ... you should have some knowledge to base the time and tools involved ... just divide that out and see if the "hourly" factors into sometning you think to be fair.
seems pretty simple to me.
plus ... no matter who was attempting to do it ... I'da thot that stuff would have been up one way or another in the time it's taken to run this thread. Right or wrong and redone 10 times ...
so .. is it up there yet?
I'd also think a guy that owns the subdivision has more than one carpenter on speed dial.
somethings not adding up here ...
anyways ... as someone that's been approached a million times by someone thinking I'm interrested in "repeat work" .... my answer is always the same ...
my price is my price ... one time or a million times in a row. U see ... I'm a fairly popular guy ... I can get my price on a fairly regular basis ... so opting for lotsa low pay work just doesn't make much sense.
I'm not saying U are low pay ... I haven't seen your run of cabs and have no idea of the going rates where you are ... I'm just saying a decent carp with an ounce of sense doesn't fall for the old "repeat work" line.
just keep in mind ... maybe that $1400 guy ... or what ever the first bid was ... actually shows up on time ... does a great job ... and leave with only his tools and none of the home owners posessions ... and U don't have to go back to replace the cab he stood on while doing a crapy job U gotta pay to have redone?
justa thot.
or maybe he's a rip off?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Moose, your bids sounds high 30 feet of crown and some light rail should not take more than 2 days. Of course I have no idea what the 10 corners look like or the crown or ...well you get the idea. Sure this guy didn't think he was milling the crown himself then installing it? For $1400 bucks you would just about get the kitchen installed too.
Jeff
I saw this thread late and read the first ten or so posts and am amazed. I install cabinets and trim everyday. For 7 pieces total of crown and light rail I would get $245 for labor. I would plan on spending at most 5 hours. Depending upon the difficulty and amount of 45 degree cabinet transitions this could vary a bit. But simple crown could be a little as three hours. The point system rate is set by the chain store I install for ( and comprable to others in this area - Northern Ca.)
_ E gads in two days I can install a typical galley kitchen with full crown.
Chileab
the difference between stumbling blocks and stepping stones is the way you use them.