Installing wide-plank pine flooring

My brother-in-law has asked me to help him install pine flooring in his family room. The pine is 12″ wide and 1″ thick. It’s going onto a well-supported 5/8″ Tongue & Groove plywood subfloor.
The pine is new, but seems to be very dry. The planks will be planed to a consistent thickness.
It will be installed with the rough side up, against my recommendation.
Questions:
1. We’re planning to screw the planks down? Recommended screw placement?
2. Should we put anything down between the pine and the subfloor, like roof paper?
3. I think this stuff is going to shrink and expand like crazy with the seasons. Should we butt the planks together?
4. I’ve been told to leave a 1/2″ space around the perimeter. Is this correct?
Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
Replies
Oh boyyyyyy! First of all its not a matter of wanting the rough side up or not. Its a matter of the way the boards will cup if they already arent. Look at the end grains on each board and make sure the circles of the end grain are all facing up (curved side up) otherwise you will have cupped boards in the room. Is the wood freshly sawn? If so leave it in the house for a good year and check it with a moisture meter.Whats the look you want? 12" wide planks to me dictates an old look. Therefore I'd recommend old cut nails exposed (face nailed) about
1 1/2" in from the edges. You also say its going over a 5/8" subfloor. Do you mean a subfloor as..thats it? You need at LEAST 3/4" plywood floor under your finished product.If all you have is 5/8" then you should add another 1/2" PTS ply over that. 30# felt paper is fine or red rosin paper. Major debates here on that. I usually go over kill. 30# felt! Some say nothing at all but no one ever said it can hurt to put paper down. You need to supply a bit more info. Are you going to T&G the planks? Cant say how much the planks will expand or contract without knowing the heating source in the house or the climate where you are. It definatly will Exp & Cont but need to know the variables of your climate and heating conditions. Do you want spaces between the planks? Also you DO need to leave a 1/2" space at the perimeter of all walls to allow for expansion.
BE well
Namaste
Andy
It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Edited 10/16/2002 10:38:46 AM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)
Thanks for the advice Andy. As you can see, I'm a novice in this area.
The house is located in Crystal Beach, Ontario...about 15 miles from Buffalo. The climate changes are extreme....cold as hell in the winter and sweltering in the summer. This room, which was originally an attached garage, will be heated by only a wood stove in the winter. There is no air-conditioning for the summer.
They want an "old" look, but the brother-in-law wants to screw the floor down, and plug the screw holes with pine plugs.
I understand that the wood is not freshly sawn. It comes from a local mill that has been virtually closed for many years. I'll try to get a moisture reading on it.
With regard to the end-grain inspection....would I be safe in designating the downside on each board based on the end-grain configuration, planing that side to achieve a consistent thickness, and then installing with the rough side up?
I'll pass along the recommendation for an additional 1/2 ply on the sub-floor. Sorry, but what's "PTS"?
There is no plan to T&G the planks. Would it help?
They don't want any spaces between the planks.
I like the 30# felt idea and will recommend we go this way.
Bill - Unless it is old growth vertical grain pine (not likely) it is too soft for typical residential flooring, particularly in a high-traffic room like a family room and way too soft if they have a dog. If there are face grain areas they (along with some vertical grain areas in soft pine) will show high heel marks, furniture marks and other signs of being too soft in a year or two. I doubt that they will be satisfied with this as a floor, particularly if "they don't want spaces between the planks."
JeffT. Jeffery Clarke
Quidvis Recte Factum Quamvis Humile Praeclarum
(Whatever is built well, no matter how humble, is noble)
I'm going to disagree with Andy up, down, and all around on this one. 30# felt is ridiculous overkill. It lays with too many wrinkles. You are not trying to waterproof a roof. If you accidentally overlapped an edge the resulting thickness would make it hard to lat the board flat without it rocking. As to the underlayment - if you are running the flooring planks perpendicular to the joists or sleepers under the subfloor, I see no reason for more buildup.
You should try a search here on this subject. Much has been said already about these old style floors. Jeff is right that it is soft but it is also a common wood in new England for residential floors.
I won't spend too much time commenting because I can forsee this one as fraught with discouragement for you and for the owners. For the life of me, I can't understand wanting the rough side up. Tell them that to say they don't want any spaces while using the one flooring material most likely to produce shrinkage cracks is asking for failure. Tantamont to going outside in a hurricane and expecting to stay dry. Screw it down and it may check in the middle of each piece, unless you use slotted holes.
Not picking on you - just my opinion..
Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 10/16/2002 12:22:58 PM ET by piffin
First off Piff...I laid 30# felt in this house five years ago with zero wrinkles and I left a 1/4" between pieces so there wasnt any overlap. Yes it was overkill but it depends on how much you need to lay. Zero creaks or squeeks. I disagree with you that 5/8 ply is sufficient !!!!!View Image
Be well
Namaste'
andyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
No need to get your feelings hurt and turn your back to me just 'cause we disagree on methods. Maybe in defense of your overkill, you can explain theory of what you gain by doubling the thickness of the slip sheet, instead of just saying something to the effect of, "I did it so it must be good" Maybe it is better but tell us why.
Standard on subfloors is that the 5/8 plus another structural layer works. In this case, the new finished floor is sufficient structure if run the right way. I wouldn't acccept 5/8" alone if you were carpeting, tiling, or running the wood floor parrallel with the stringers.
Personally, I use 3/4" always except when using Advantech but personally I'm not doing the job or living with it..
Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 10/16/2002 1:01:21 PM ET by piffin
Is a 3/4 t/g sub floor sufficent for hardwood and tile?
tim, I just said not for tile. It needs additional substrate. Many discussions here in archives - try the search button. Hardwood OK, IF laid perpendicular to stringers.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
Piff
I "stated" that 30# felt WAS overkill. I do a lot of overkill things. Not one of my floors has ever squeeked or creaked or leaked. Not sure if it has anything to do with the flet but as I said..it sure didnt hurt. I also have used red rosin paper where there was a serious buget factor such as a rental in low income apts. I believe red rosin paper is also fine but when I do my own homes I go overboard as I did state. I ALWAYS install 3/4" ply and use my long necked screwgun to "screw it down" always. Probably overkill as well, but thats how I am. No explanation other then that. After over 27 years of zero callbacks I stick with what works for me personally so thats the advice I give along with the statement that it is overkill in all likelyhood.
I never turned my back on you or had my feelings hurt Piff......just sayin what worked for me..just thought you'd like that cartoon was all..lol
View ImageDoes this make up for it?
I know I'm banned now.oiy
Be well bro
Namaste'
andy
It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Edited 10/16/2002 1:13:49 PM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)
Maybe I misinterpretated what you meant by that first image. As soon as I get my eyes back in my sockets, I'll try to figure out what you meant by this one.
;)
Are we OK now?.
Excellence is its own reward!
Pif.we're always ok. You are an intense person and I love you dearly as a builder and a person. You know me by now...I'm kinda intense every here and there....lol.....Be well bro and I won't say Namaste'..ok? Feel better? lol
AndrewIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Shalom!.
Excellence is its own reward!
Several years ago I helped a neighbor build a 16 x 24 two story studio. Looking to keep his cost down, and after reading in the MA code book that nominal 1 x T&G required no subfloor, we deceided to try it out. We used 1 X 6 T & G SYP flooring blind nailed every 16 inches directly over the joists. No sub floor. It's still solid, tight and saved the cost of plywood and labor. We decided that subflooring is just something to walk around on until you get around to putting down the real floor. Sure it got scuffed up a bit, but hey, we had to sand it before putting the finish on anyway. If you're going to tile, that's a whole nother story.
http://groups.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&PhotoID=nHQAAALAIm2Zcs6vd83ez4!GXi!8wyWBax78zVZYVXeHAuy5dEAH7uR7svokUpA9H
I like this little guy, how do you do this? Joe H
joe
you just did it!
Be well
Namaste'
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Bill,
Here is the kicker:
"The climate changes are extreme....cold as hell in the winter and sweltering in the summer. This room, which was originally an attached garage, will be heated by only a wood stove in the winter. There is no air-conditioning for the summer."
I cut and pasted the above quote (from your previous post) through the "Construction Language Translator" located over at http://www.babelfish.com, it translated it to the following:
"There is no climate control in this room. Humidity and temperature varies considerably throughout the year. Expect gaps up to 3/8ths of an inch between boards in the cold, dry winter. If you try to convince the boards to not gap by screwing them down tightly, the wood will win the movement war in the end by splitting, cracking, and checking to relieve the internal stresses caused by the changes in climate."
So...based upon babelfish's translation, you may want to think about T&G or a shiplap to allow for the inevitable seasonal movement. Regardless, the flooring needs to be run perpendicular to the joists and fastened to the joists. Rose head nails would look fabulous, but if you want to screw and plug have at it.
Do it right and it will be a fabulous looking floor.
Why not glue and nail it? Whether or not that would work successfully in your climate is another thing. In an unrelated note; why does this thumbs up thing always get posted even though the rating I've selected is neutral?
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Edited 10/17/2002 2:03:28 AM ET by HARDWOODGUY
>> ... why does this thumbs up thing always get posted ...
Probably because you have your preferences set to flag any topic you post to as high interest. To change it, click on My Forums, then My Preferences, then look about halfway down the page.
Just to reiterate (not backpeddle). "One" of the reasons I recommend 3/4" ply is because you never stated which way the boards will be running. Across the joists or not. Either way, I'd always opt for 3/4" ply but specially if your not crossing the joists..Duh. I'd also recommend T&Ging the planks. Set yourself up a router table with T&G bits or if you havent a router table then you can also get a nice inexpensive wheel for your table saw that has T&G cutters. I'm assuming you dont have a shaper. In my old house the planks are very spaced apart due to its age mostly and I like it that way. The planks are hardley planed smooth. Theyre way funky.....so I spose its the look thats in your head and heart not neccesarily perfection. Imperfection at times is perfection.
Be well
Namaste'
Andy
It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Thanks Andy....I appreciate your interest in my project.
The planks will be run perpendicular to the floor joists. Given the full 1" thickness of our planking, I'm hoping we can get by without any additional plywood buildup.
There certainly are divergent views on this topic, but an apparent consensus on the T&G. I do have a router table, but might also see what the local mill would charge for the job. (He'll do it better and faster). I guess we'll still get the shrinkage and expansion, but it will be masked by the T&G.
Pergo would have been so much easier!!
here's 2 cents worth of free advice - the rough side idea is bad, incredably bad, you already know that - character is one thing; splinters, dirt in the kerfs, dog hair hanging on roughness, difficulty in cleaning up spills: I'd stay away from the project just because he is not going to be happy after it's done, and it will be easier to blame you than to admit to a mistake - - it'd be fine in a barn, but not in a house - - at least get a belt sander (4 X24" hog or some such) and work each board until the roughness is negligible -
that said, here's a couple more - -
rough sawn boards are probably not particularly straight or consistant, and 12" boards do not bend very well to fit, check the mill you talk about and see if they will send them thru their power feed table saw to straighten an edge and then work off of that - the aforementioned points about splinters and dirt apply to the edge as well as the face, the edge needs to be smoothed, a most satifying job for a hand plane, or use your power tool if you must - dress the edge so the top of top of the board is slightly wider than the bottom; aides in tight fitting - radius the top edge slightly - do a good job and when he decides the surface needs smoothed, it can be sanded and not exhibit rough edges -
consider splines rather than tongue and groove - don't lose any width, and you could do it with a router and 1/4" bit -
face nail with roseheads as has already been mentioned is a nice effect for wide planks, altho I think it looks better at 24"spacing than 16" (lots of fasteners looks busy) - plugging a rough board seems dumb, but surface nails will be in the way if (when) he decides to smooth the floor - 3 fasteners, 2 1/2" in from either edge and one in the middle - you'll need to drill any near the ends of the boards and might be a good idea to drill them all, it won't take long to tell - - Frenchy has suggested screwing from underneath for a 'no fastener' look above, and it would be worthy of consideration - -
I think your subfloor is good enough, although your boards, even if 4/4 (doubtful) now, will be signifigantly less by the time they are cleaned up -
if you can, prepare the lumber, stack and sticker in the room and lay it about january or so- most pine is soft enough that it is unlikely to buckle as it expands, but will definately shrink as it dries, might as well be tight to start with -
one layer of light felt is fine - make sure the subfloor is devoid of lumps - snap a chalk line on the felt at each nailer, make a jig to lay out your fasteners for consistancy - don't put any butt joints in front of doorways, measure and plan so the floor doesn't end up awkward, with a thin tapered strip at the finish or something -
That info is worth 4 cents minimum...nice post, David.
Dave...
Thanks very much for a so much great input. It's really appreciated.
I'm printing all the posts and having my brother-in-law read them. He's a stubborn guy, (aren't we all?), but he'll see the light eventually.
One question...how about biscuits in place of the spline?
Bill,
I've done several wide-pine floors in Central NY climate. Here are my observations:
Rough side will wind up getting sanded after they've walked on them for a week then had to clean them.
Boards will move about 1/4 inch from season to season humidity changes. Add in the woodstove, and you can expect even more than that. 3/8" sounds about right to me. T&G or not, you will still have a gap. They just won't be as deep with the T&G.
The real worry for me in this situation is always when to lay them and how to space them. If you lay them tight in the "fat" (summer, humid) season, you have to woory about them gapping so much that the tounges pop out of the grooves. If you lay them in the dry winter season, you risk having them buckle in the summer.
Screws and plugs are a more polished look. Using a contrasting wood for the plugs can be interesting, but if you ask me cut nails are more in line with the look they are after.
Paper or not? Who cares. 5/8 ply is fine. I've done it over 1/2 inch rough-cut dustboards, 1/2" ply, T&G over no subfloor at all. That last one is a little bouncy, but what the heck. 5/8 will be plenty stiff.
Don't use poly or any surface varnish. With a floor this soft, the surface finishes chip and crack and fail big-time. Use a penetrating oil finish, Waterlox is great, danish oils are good too. They penetrate deep into the wood, and handle the dings and dents much better than surface finishes.
Have you ever seen a wide pine floor with no gaps in it in the winter?
Steve
Edited 10/17/2002 9:58:51 PM ET by STEVENZERBY