Looking for methods of insulating concrete foundation both on interior and exterior. Also the pros and cons of doing it either way. Foundation is in Colorado at 10,000 feet, cold and snow, with required frost depth of 40 inches grade to bottom of footing. Will have in slab radiant heat.
Thanks
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Replies
Greetings b,
This post, in response to your question, will bump the thread through the 'recent discussion' listing again.
Perhaps it will catch someone's attention that can help you with advice.
Cheers
The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
If it were me I'd insulate the exterior. If you insulate the exterior then the concrete will be on the warm side of the structure. That will minimize condensation and provide thermal mass. If you insulate the inside, then the concrete behind the insulation will be very cold. Any moisture that finds its way there will condense, and you'll have moisture between your finished wall and the concrete surface.
If you have not built the wall yet, I'd highly recommend insulated concrete forms (ICFs), with a Grace (or similar material from another company) membrane on the outside. Use 2" of foam insulation under the slab and provide a thermal break between the slab and the footing.
When I find a design for insulating a concrete slab that doesn't allow a path for termites to gain unseen entry into the exterior walls, I will start insulating my concrete slabs.
I have spent a good deal of time on this and listened to many ideas pitched to me by others. There hasn't been one yet that didn't offer the path. If I started to believe in poison as a permanent solution then I would start using insulation on the exterior to below grade and cover it with stone or stucco to below grade. I'm not there yet.
Do they have termites in Colorado at 10,000 feet? It may not be a problem.
never heard of one...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I do not believe we have termite problem here.
Although we do have a snow problem. 2 feet of snow this weekend, not good for pouring walls
Thanks for everyones input
where are you?
I'm over in the Canoshas...
two feet of snow was here by Friday morning...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
IMERC, I am in Brekenridge. We also got two feet of snow. Where is Cashnot or whatever it was?
To every one,
Did not do ICF, have helped do one before and believe they are nice if vibrated properly. But time and money dictated traditional forms. Poured Saturday, all went well. Now just need a couple weeks of no frost for piers, slabs and backfill and then framing between skiing.
I am not hearing of any termite problem here or other that would attack blue board insulation. Am I missing something? I see lots of multimillion trophy homes being built that are using 1 to 2 inch blue board on exterior of foundation.
Any thoughts on waterproofing? I am thinking of a spray on Dissco waterproofer, not dampproofer. I was told not to do any walls that have back fill on both sides. I have this condition in half of the lower level. Any thoughts?
Lost Wilderness.. would ya know that area...
the far end of the back yard to Tarryall.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Had to look up where Lost Wilderness is. Have to keep that one on the list of to dos when house is done.
Your living at 11,400?
Not too many neighbors I suppose. Nice.
Yeah I agree with you guys that 40" bottom of footer is shallow, but thats what Summit County code is. I do have a 40 foot section of footers only 40" deep. Will be interesting to see if any problems. People live in much less and survive. Heck I only got another 25 years to go.
So what do you suggest realistically for water line depth or insulating? Water is municipal service with distance of 80 feet from main lateral to house. Line will enter house 12 feet below grade at house edge. Lne will be going under driveway that is built up 3 feet higher than surrounding grade. I think water is stubbed in at 7-8 feet deep at lot line. Will be trenching in soon.
Had to look up where Lost Wilderness is. Have to keep that one on the list of to dos when house is done.
bring sports gear... hunting and fishing is door step..
Your living at 11,400?
Not too many neighbors I suppose. Nice.
fewer than that..
Yeah I agree with you guys that 40" bottom of footer is shallow, but thats what Summit County code is.
OK...
So what do you suggest realistically for water line depth
realisticaly?? all you can go... at past the 10' mark freeze ups happen but mighty rarely..
or insulating?
4 - 6" foam sleeve..
under driveway that is built up 3 feet higher than surrounding grade.
don't care mush for drifts on the drive way do we...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I've worked there. No insectsyou need to worry about at that elevation. I still can't believe only 40" though
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
100" is nominal frost line for utilities... and then they must have seriousley insulated sleeves....
48" for footers and the like...
I'm above 11K... 120" frost line...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
or snakes.. Shredder and Carole could go for the nieghborhood...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Yep.
Carole spent plenty time above Ouray/Telluride and around Black canyon of the Gunnison, then lived on the Gore range for a while
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
This Carole...
pi type...
your Carole I know has the mountains in her blood...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
OhPiAye
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
would you like a roll of paper towels with that and some wash water..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Yeah those Colorado builders have it easy. No moisture issues and no termites. Oh wait, I forgot the UV issues and the radon. The winter construction conditions aren't to be believed either. OK I'll stay in TX.
what is not to be believed about our construcion conditions???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
You get to work and it's 45 degrees out but a cold front is on the way. You break for lunch and it's getting really gray. You get back from lunch and its 20 degrees and snowing. You go home early. The next morning there's a foot of snow on the ground and its 5 below. You go skiing and wonder when it'll warm up enough to be able to work again. Two days later it's 40 degrees and muddy. You go to work and slog around after the ice melts off the material. You get in 5 hours of work. That night you hear on the news that another cold front is on the way.
Is that about right?
My best freind had a house built up there. Not alot of progress in the winter. I love CO but I don't want to work there.
I know it was rhetorical.
sounds about right...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
<<Do they have termites in Colorado at 10,000 feet?>>
Do they even have air in Colorado at 10,000 ft??Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
can't buy into that....
be holdin' yur breath..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
The biggest challenge to work above 10k.... 1) tuning gas powered equiptment, 2) findin truly skilled delivery drivers!oh there has to be more just none come to mind right now.
would that be because of the frost line at 100"....
delivery as in UPS, beer or material...
service for equipment is at 6,000'.... they just don't get it most days...
horse power is a commodity... never enough of it..
be at 11,400'
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
What about?
Perform Guard is an EPS board that is manufactured with borates for protection against termites
manufactured by AFM R-Control Corp
approved for below grade exterior use in the South
another question - when you are using the peel and stick membrane on pier and beam foundation- what happens at the brck ledge?
"What about?
Perform Guard is an EPS board that is manufactured with borates for protection against termites
manufactured by AFM R-Control Corp
approved for below grade exterior use in the South"
What would be the construction detail? The problem isn't the material itself but the pathway that it provides. Wherever the thermal break occurs, there is a hidden path for termites to enter the structure. If you put it under the slab there will be a joint at the interior wall line. If you put it outside the slab, there will be a joint at the material that covers the foam. If you leave an inspection strip, the effectiveness is reduced, but that may be the safest option.
I will check into this product. Borate treatments are known to leach out unless kept dry. I wonder how they overcome this below grade. This will take some indepth study.
"another question - when you are using the peel and stick membrane on pier and beam foundation- what happens at the brck ledge?"
I need a drawing to understand your question because there are several ways to construct this.
Hi Ray,I believe that the borate treatment should be OK while suspended in XPS, since XPS has such a low moisture absorbancy. If it cannot absorb water, the borate treatment should not be able to leach... though you are dealing with one of the more extreme climates when it comes to termite management. Cracks have to be dealt with separately... and you can always layer something on top of the XPS to keep water and bugs out / seal cracks. I used exterior XPS here in MA and couldn't be happier. The mass of the walls is on the inside, the heat loss is negligible, and the cold exterior walls also help keep the water out. To glue the panels on, we used Rub-R-Wall, which is a sticky membrane that is gobbed-on. Even with standing water outside (and clay soil!), the inside remained dry. Good enough for me...... and, our house was infested with termites due to a) a warm basement, b) ready access to water in the basement (leaking sill plate, bad rear access door, leaks in plumbing), and c) careless homeowners who looked the other way while the basement stank of male armpit. Between water management (i.e. keeping the foundation dry), ingress management (i.e. making it difficult for termites to establish a nest), and vigilance (i.e. going over the foundation from time to time), I feel pretty safe... ... BTW, you could always limit your application of XPS to leave a "solid" section between it and the house's wood. We have up to 4' of brick and PT lumber in the way.
Edited 10/5/2006 5:08 pm ET by Constantin
ray.. all of the Perform Guard EPS is borate treated
if you want info .. google on "R-Control"
you'll find a franchise near you ..
the borates kill any of the termites that injest it and they have to injest it to tunnel around it or thru it
Perform Guard EPs is the only foam we will use on our jobs because of the vermin problem with other foams... even above gradeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The problem is the cracks where the termites can just go beside it instead of through it. Termites love cracks. That's a fact that keeps termimesh in business. The treatment probably does a good job of protecting the foam. Termites are a tough nut to crack.
ray.. another good weapon is Bora-Care... a liquid that you can apply to wood that kills the vermin that injest it
i think it is about 125/ gal... usually applied a t 1:1 or 1:2Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks for ideas on insulating a foundation. Maybe a seperate post should have been started for termite discussion, because I do not care about termites. Have other cares, yes two feet of snow a week ago, clay for a driveway and a pump truck almost on its side after snow melted turnig driveway into soft clay. Pouring walls tomorrow. Sunny and 60 degrees, no humidity and no termites.
Love Colorado weather, especially if it holds for 1 -2 more months.
there are other vermin besides termites ... and they all love foam
so... foam with borates = good
foam with no borates = badMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Google Building Science Corp. They have a ton of info on basement insulation, I'm researching for my next home. Basically they like 2" inches of foam on the interior followed by fiberglas batts with NO VAPOR BARRIER.
Good luck
Is this job poured? If not, then ICF.
Ron
build with ICFs.
Only 40" Leadville is about thatelevation and they have had frozen water lines at nine feet down
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Saw an interesting scheme at a home show recently. It involves using proprietary forms to pour a concrete foundation with several inches of foam inside. Provided some of the same advantages of ICFs, but the foam is totally encapsulated in the concrete.
"but the foam is totally encapsulated in the concrete. "
Do you have any kind of name for that process / company?
Cloudhidden posted something about it recently.
Joe H
> Do you have any kind of name for that process / company?Sorry, no. I just checked the bag of stuff I have from the show (actually, "The Eco Experience" at the MN State Fair), and nothing from them that I can find.
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