Okay, I know this discussion has been written to death…. but haven’t seen it in a while.
What is the best wall frame for insulation? Consider insulation as the top priority, but factor in the frame costs.
Do many of you use Icynene?
The climate area I would build in is Western NC. With Icynene do you still use foam on the sheathing?
I want to build a very warm, easy to heat place.
Da’ vue
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nuvue
I'm really glad you asked this question..
SIP's or ICF's
Let me qualify that for you.. I assume you are asking material costs and will be doing the work yourself.
Here's what SIP's are,, they are structural insulated panels (used to be called freezer panels..) they've been around since WW2 and are extremely effective, inexpensive, strong, durable, and easy to build with..
More if you ask..
ICF's approach the problem from a differant approach.
ICF stands for insulated concrete forms.. they basically are foam forms you pour concrete into..
Extremely fast and easy to build with.. it's like putting together giant foam leggo's
Like SIP's ICF's are massively great at holding temps inside.. I kid that you can heat with a candle at the poles with either system.
Both systems are strong (typically 200% stronger than a tradionally built house) and very easy to build..
If you want further details I'll be glad to explain costs benefits weaknesses and anything else you'd like to know..
I used both systems building this place. you can look at pictures of it if you go to advanced search and enter 37758.1 there are a lot more pictures over at breaktime if you are interested..
From the tone of the question you asked, it sounds like you have a little knowledge but lack the fundamentals.. Am I correct?
Thanks Frenchy
I am a builder also but have been in the tropics and have not been around the insulated building trade much. I have got some experience with ICF's here and it seems like a good way to go.
I was wondering what is typ. now with a wall frame. Would you do a post and scream and then Sips? Will SIP's support a roof frame over 2 stories? I have not done any SIP but have seen the articles in FHB.
Here we do not put ICF's underground, can you do that in WNC if you coat it well before backfill?
I guess it is to each his own......after being here in the VI's my wife and kid (and me) will need a very easy house to heat, and we aren't acclimatized there yet. (just thinkin of moving cuz of school issues here)
I want to do a passive solar w/ radiant floor heat and woodstove backup. Don't even have the lot yet but we are looking....
Thanks for the input
Nuvue
nuvue,
The only weakness SIP's have is if they don't treat the foam/OSB with Borate (normal policy, but check) foam is reported to be a place where insects* will seek shelter..
* termits, carpenter ants.
Structually SIP's are 200% stronger than traditional stick building.. The construction is very simple.. you build your platform in the traditonal manner and then tip up the panels .. you can have all 4 walls up extremely quickly. I used SIP's for my ceilings, far better than either fiberglas or celluliose for heat control. iF you want really big open rooms, you'll have to pay special attenbtion to spans but it still can be done.. Here's where post and beam might be called for.. By the way if you go to sawmills the currant price of ash is really insanely cheap. a 9 foot long 9"x7" ash beam sells for around 20 to 22 dollars nation wide. 18 footer would be $44.00
Note when you are standing on the platform where you have good views and that's where you put the windows in (after you tip up the walls) very little worry about headers etc. except for really big picture windows close to the roof line. The panel company should provide you with guidelines..
Post and beam is a nice decorative touch but not required for structural reasons.. Oh by the way SIP's have all the approvals. As do ICF's
In your location I would think ICF's would be the way to build.. (make sure that the forms are treated with borate or otherwise sealed from insects)
It's like putting to gether a giant foam leggo block and is insanely fast and easy to do..
They are capable of dealing with 200 MPH wind speed.. and have a 2 hour fire rating.. check with local readi mix companies for which brands they sell. I used rewards forms and found them great. Not only did they do all the calculations for me but came out the day before the pour to ensure everything was done right.
For in floor radiant you will do well to use randantech. they will help you do the calculations required.. provide you with the manifolds and pumps etc.. Depending on the size of house you could use a water heater as a back up heat source rather than the expense of a boiler..
I'm tryin to give this message a bump....not as much input as I thought there would be.
I am wondering what wall frames people use, and how to insulate on typ. frames now. When I left there we were framing w/ 2x6, foam ext. and a good vapor barrier inside. Now there is all kinds of new foams and sheathings, vapor paints etc.....I guess if I build I'm leanin toward ICF's, or maybe a ICF first floor and frame over??
Nuvue
nuvue
In my humble opinion You would do well to build with ICF's. The slight differance in R value between a ICF and a SIP could be made up but I suspect that it wouldn't have a payback in any reasonable period of time..
I am in WNC and did mine with 2x6 walls and Cocoon damp blown celulose. Can give you the name of the Asheville area contractor.
I considered sips but was afraid it was too great of a technology leap for the guys I had frame my place. But that was almost 10 yrs ago. A neighbor of my sister built what is basically a three story ICF in Linville/Newland area, claimed to have the biggest beer cooler around.
His is very easy to heat and quiet as could be.
Use advanced search here for 'Mooney Wall" It has a lot going for it, and is user friendly.
just to jog your memory, it is standard 2x4 stud wall with an added 2x2 on thehorizontal, insulweb and dense pack cells. A little more detailed than that, but not too much to absorb in one sitting.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
SIP or ICF
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