Greetings all!
I’ve recently ventured out on my own doing interior finishing for new homes. The problem I am having is that I dont know what the on-going rates are. Can anyone give me some ideas of how I should price out a job? Here are a few examples: baseboards (should prices vary with different heights?), crown, doors (should the casings and door knobs be included in a price or separate), headers above door ways, mantels, feature pieces, window sills and trim, adjusting exterior doors (ones that the framers put in), installing bi-fold doors, etc.
Any help in this area would be much appreciated. I should mention tho that I live in BC, Canada, so the pricing might differ from those in the US.
Thanks for your time!
glen
Replies
heres the best way. call home depot and ask them how much they charge. they follow industry standards. or call the competition and tell him you bought the material how much to install it.
done it for years and im sure its been done to me.
you have to keep in mind, if the guy your asking it top end and your just starting out, the better work has higher pay.
cheers
Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
you're kidding right?
I'm just curious, how long have you been in business?
I don't want to come off as rude, but the advice you're giving is really bad
how can you say its bad when you just said the same thing. you just told him to go talk to other pros.
pricing by what HD or your competitors charge is just idiocy.
news flash, everyone that does what you do is your competition no matter if your a rookie or a seasond pro. better be in the same ball park or your gonna lose.
Tmax claims a good business man knows his competition's pricing, maybe...
thank you. guess how i found out. i asked them
I'd suggest you read some books and talk to some other true professionals as to how they come up with their numbers, not what they are.
didnt i say that earlier?
i dont know about where you live but up here HD does not have there own install staff. they hire "proffesional" people.
as a contractor who has been in bussiness for 15 years. i have had great success with the jobs i have had them do. although they dont do trim carpentry around here. i was suggesting to use them for basic numbers. they have been very competitive in what they have done for me in the past.
Glen said he contacted HD and ther install price was higher. than who? maybe your too low, dont sell yourself short. many years ago when i was starting out i went by time and materials. then i found out that as a "skilled" trim carpenter i was way lower than my competitors and i was busting my butt to make a buck. once your skills are at the high end of trim, people will pay the higher price for your trained skill. until then, your head to head with a thousand other people.
as a GC, i get several bids. the guy with the lowest rarely gets the job, they cut corners or have low quality work. i wont have that in my customers homes. the guy with the highest bid might get it but customers want great work at reasonable prices. so they will pay if your good.
around here, basic trim installed by a "professional" starts at about 2 bucks a lineal foot. complex trim is about 3. when you get into weinscotting and stairs ect... you have to know how long its going to take you in order to quote it.
best of luck. your getiing into the best end of the biz.
cheers
Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
Ok ill hold it. Now when i nod my head, you hit it.
you just told him to go talk to other pros.
Yes I did, but I told him to ask pros how they come up with their prices, not what their prices are.
news flash, everyone that does what you do is your competition no matter if your a rookie or a seasond pro. better be in the same ball park or your gonna lose.
I disagree, to a point you may be correct, but there are people who operate out of the back of a truck with no insurance etc, who may very well do the same type of work the company I work for does. But they do not provide the same level of service nor professionism. If I tried to match their prices, which are considerably lower, we'd probably sign a lot more jobs, but end up out of business.
dont know about where you live but up here HD does not have there own install staff. they hire "proffesional" people.
around here HD hires the cheapest labor they can find, which usually amounts to a hack with a truck and a few tools who can barely get the job done in a satisfactory manner. I've been to several houses where the H/O says they had HD do this or that and it rare that it ended well.
all I'm trying to say is pricing your work by your competitors is plain and simple a bad idea.
Glen-
Please disregard tmaxxx's method of pricing your work. Basing your pricing on what Home Depot is charging (or what anyone else is charging), is a sure-fire way to get an orange apron on your own quickly.
You've got to determine your costs of doing business, based on your desired salary, your overhead costs, etc. You then need to determine how long various tasks take you, and price based on hours x rate. And don't listen to the builders who say "I only pay $XX/SF for trimwork- take it or leave it". If the numbers don't work for you, leave it.
Bob
This is the kind of thing that gets asked pretty frequently, but I'm gonna wax verbose anyway.
What someone else charges is COMPLETELY irrelevant. I know, I know, you say but I gotta be competitive. No, you don't. You gotta do what you do, and charge what you need to be happy doing it. Now you either find yourself dropped conveniently in the niche that suits the work you do and the price you charge, or you move on to bigger and better things.
I've seen trimmers charge by the s.f. of the house. Hey, it's 2000 finished area, I charge 2 bucks a foot, I'll trim it for $4K. Not a methodology I'm going to try anytime soon.
I've seen some that actually bid it, but hate trying to figure out how to bid, so just dumb everything down into rooms. A room is this much for base, a window is X. Regardless of the size of the room, the turns, copes, etc.
I bid by lineal feet, and my price sheet (which I don't hand out) is only there as guidance to me to remind me of about how much of what I do in how long. I still have to look at the plans and take into account any differences that are unique to that job, that trim, or even that builder. And yes, bigger profiles I charge more for. Not much, but a little. I pay more attention to the profile probably than to the size. Chair rail is a good example. I've done simple stuff that just copes in 30 seconds, and convoluted things that take 15 minutes a joint to get it to kiss just so.
What the next guy charges really doesn't enter into the equation. Your next door neighbor could be doing the same thing for more, for less, whatever.
Getting started, that's the trick. I don't know your experience level. If you think you're comfy with everything that will be thrown at you, I still think it's good advice to find someone building starter homes on a budget and having a sit down. Be honest. Hey, I'm new to this, but I'm competent. I'd like to help you out by trimming one of those small guys. I'll give you a bid, and if you think it's off center one way or another, tell me, and we'll make sure we're both on the same page. Chances are what they want, while clean, will be on the simplistic side of the span of choices you'll eventually see, and a job you can have wrapped up inside of a week is going to be a good way to take notes on a small scale and find out how much base you lay in a day or how many doors you can hang.
You can't judge anything solely by how many rooms it has or how many sq ft finished it is. I trimmed an 8400 sf job last year which was not overly complex; I'm trimming a 2100 sf job now for almost the same price. Its all details. And in trimming, details are everything.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
Damn good post RW....I concur.
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Thanks RW! Your thoughts are appreciated. I actually just started interior finishing and cabinet making with a couple of builders who just started building houses. My experience lies more in cabinet making but my interest is more in finishing. They base their prices on what they hear others are bidding piece-work at. I just wanted to confirm some of these prices. It's also beneficial to appear confident and experienced when I meet with new builders and contractors. Its good to hear from some veterans. Thanks again.
glen
a good bussiness man knows how much his competetor is charging. if all you do is charge what you want then yor going to get out bid alot. you need a base starting point. and companies like the box stores run at industry standard levvel or they would never get installs. the standard for trim around here is 2 - 2.25 ft. how do i know? i called not guessed. if you wing it your going to be wondering why you dont have the money to buy a new blade when you need it. or rushing to make a decent buck and not doing a perfect job. common sence will tell you that you have to bid each job on the product and difficulty of the install. so again i say, you need a starting point and you need to find out what that is. so houw are you going to do that if you dont call in your area?Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
Yes, I do agree with you and actually have called Home Depot, but they usually have a much higher install rate. I have tried to call other companies, as well, that specialize in finishing but they weren't wanting to vocalize their on-going rate on the phone, and wanted to come and take a look at the job.
Because I am new at this I am assuming that I won't make a 'killing' on each job until I become more efficient and experienced. So whatever price these builders are offering me currently, I am willing to accept, because they are giving me a chance to learn my job better on their houses. The last 2 days I was able to hang 17 doors and put casing and headers on, without jeopardizing quality. I feel that I am catching on to a good system and becoming efficient. So, I am becoming more confident in what I do, but I lack the sales experience and pricing to help me find more jobs.
I guess what I was hoping, was that someone would be willing to give me 'ball-park' figures on those items that I had listed.
Thank-you for your replies!
glen
The other much more experienced guys here are correct, you can not price your work based on what someone else is charging, you don't have the same expenses nor the same overhead.
pricing by what HD or your competitors charge is just idiocy.
Do you want your competition to be home depot?
Tmax claims a good business man knows his competition's pricing, maybe...
But a better business man know's how to set himself apart from his competitor, how to sell his services, not just as a product, but truly as a service, what can you provide your customer that your competition can not which makes you more of a value and takes price if not out of the equation as a determination, at least moves it further back.
So whatever price these builders are offering me currently, I am willing to accept
That's another sure fire way to go bankrupt or back to working as an employee...
If what they are willing to offer you does not cover your expenses and compensate you over that by enough to justify the risk of being on your own, why bother?
I'd suggest you read some books and talk to some other true professionals as to how they come up with their numbers, not what they are.
Edited 3/13/2005 4:35 pm ET by CAG
Glen,
I think you've gotten some really good info from some of the other posts and I want to say thanks as well. The best trim carpenter I know is Gary Striegler. He does some amazing work, and has deliberately set himself apart by doing things others cannot. His mantra is that if it's different from what everyone else is doing, looks better, it's worth more. He only knows what other carps are charging because in his area most of the trim carps are trying to work for him.
good luck on your endevour. and remember, when it gets hard you're learning something.
Jim