I’m coming at this from the employee screening out employers, but I’m interested in the other direction too. What questions do you ask or things do you look for to find other people that are motivated, interested in learning, and care about their work?
I can think of a couple things that I might ask- for one, “what are you doing to continue to educate yourself/your company about carpentry?”
zak
“When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone.” –John Ruskin
“so it goes”
Replies
"what are you doing to continue to educate yourself/your company about carpentry?"
answer: whatever you'll pay for.
as an employer, how much free work do you expect me to do?
(yes, this post is somewhat antagonistic, the point is, how much personal time should be spent to increase the employer's bottom line versus doing what you enjoy, which can include improving yourself for the job.)
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG
It's not necessarily about increasing the Employer's bottom line.
Showing an interest in "learning" provides an insight into the employees
character and "long term" value to the company.
The marketplace changes quickly, with financial advantages for those
capable of learning and providing "new" services and products.
Eg. Intially an cast-in place concrete contractor, we are now also
ICF, Eifs and Radiant, and small line concrete pumpers.
One thing leads to another, and then to the Bank.
I am only interested in employees who say they will try new things.
It has always been the company's dime.
"I am only interested in employees who say they will try new things.It has always been the company's dime."that provides a good background, and hopefully when interviewing it comes across. Have seen too many bosses expect something for nothing.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG
What I was getting at with that question-
For employees- do you have an interest in carpentry, and do you enjoy learning in general? I'm assuming that no one gets paid to visit breaktime, but not many of us would do it if we weren't interested in carpentry. That's my take on it anyway.
For employers, I am interested in seeing money and/or time invested in education and training, because to me that signifies an employer that will support an a worker, with the knowledge that the investment is usually repaid by better work.
But what else would you ask?zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
I'm with you Zak.
The non-learners are "marking time" , working for a paycheck,
with no real goal to better understand their trade.
Some guys just won't think about work at home though.
I have a foreman who thought he could read sophisticated prints on the job, and maintain a schedule. He wasted many man hours on site, fumbling around.
Finally, frustrated with the performance, I forced him learn and study the drawings the night before, bill me for the hours, whatever. The job started to roll after that, and he made a bonus at the end.
I have invested many hours in giving him versatility in his profession.
He's still a 44 hr a week guy though.
For me...I don't ask the questions like that. Its too obvious what you "want" them to say. I just go into a light hearted conversation about different things to get the feel for the person b/c its more than what they say they want to learn. They might not even know depending on how old they are. I want to see what they're open to...what they have been open to in the past, present, and future. What their interests are. How they treat people. What their other interests are besides building. What books they read.
I can learn more about a person being real with them than putting them in a position to fabricate contrieved answers.
Especially if I'll be working with someone day in and day out in someone's home.
Its also important to me whether or not they can look me in the eyes when they talk to me. That says something to me (no...not that dope...geezzz).
a...
"i say to foobytor have a sit down ask him whats going on inside and please try to keep up . the rest will register with him..... and you never know the human spirit is an amazing resilient entity"alias
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
And that is why we are still doing things "because we allways did them that way" No ones really worried about anything new, because its OJT, full pay. I read and study the trades, not just my own. Me and my partner was fired last year for working to much. And we weren't even warmed up yet. Insurance job and needed to drag it out to get all the money. Its took me years to develop the work habits I do have , the good ones anyway. I'll loaf at home.
"Me and my partner was fired last year for working to much."You could have been an embarrassment to the boss because he was lazy.
We were an embarrasment to everyone. 1 day we put in 25 sheets of backer then kitchen cabinets on top of backer. 2 mexs and boss ran backer in 3 days. and thats a double no-shotter.
I always ask to talk with people at a jobsite. In 5 minutes you'll learn more than an hours worth of bs from the office.
Some might have great technical skills and no ability to judge asthetics. Some are just the opposite and build good looking crap.
On site you'll also know right away what the budget is and how well everyone is tooled up.
If you have a chance to talk with other carps it will give you a chance to size up the quality of guys working there and their backgrounds.
I'm pretty forward about compensation and usually ask the carpenters how much they make if the boss isn't around. They don't have to answer if they don't want to, but most do.
Do a quick inspection--site down walls, look over doors and windows, check out anything that's already finished. Ask what's coming up and how it compares to the job you're at.
If there isn't anything there don't waste time.
Anymore I won't work for someone else until I've seen one of their jobs.
Good luck
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
That's a good strategy- I think I trust my ability to judge carpentry more than my ability to judge people.
I don't think there is any silver bullet question or thing to look for- when I look back on it, some of the best places to work for took me months (at least) to get to really like. That, again, depends on what you're looking for. Hopefully I'm getting a better idea about that.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
i think it wise to carefully choose your employer, especially in the trades. depending on which choice you make, it could greatly affect any number of things, there is much to consider.
just as an employer wants certain things from an employee.....
you want to work for the "best" contractor doing the type of work you are interested in, and yet taking jobs with other than the best can provide different opportunities.
if your goal is to learn, my opinion is that most of it will come from on the job experience, not to say that you won't learn tons from watching gary katz' video, but for most it is the doing that really gets it to sink in. many jobs don't offer much variety, you will have to leave the framing crew to learn the plumbing.
and while you will get a good grasp of framing working for a remodel contractor performing many trades, it won't come close to grasp you will get from working for a specialty contractor, that further breaks down the tasks within that particular trade. as an apprentice i remember a journeyman saying an apprenticeship is closer to 10 years than to 4, and that was just for each individual task in the framing crew. (i think that is a bit much, but it was overstated on purpose to indicate you can never know it all)
in the tracts of so cal (ask larry haun, he'll tell you) the framing crew is divided into framers, sheeters, platers, joisters, cut & stack/trusses, fascia, plumb & line, layout (snapping out, sometimes doen by platers, sometimes not) stairs, pickup/punch out, did i miss any? the classic example is larry haun's article in FHB where he talks about door hanging, now there is no doubt in my mind that larry is a good carpenter, but when he talks about guys that hang 5 doors to his one that gives you an example of the learning curve.
which gets back to choosing an employer where you will learn, i suggest you will have to change jobs (and/or employers) for the "best" education
Carpentry is strange. After a move a few years ago I talked with many of the high profile builders, some unknowns that look like they have their act together and just about anyone that seemed on the surface to be decent and found very little with any substance.
Then a two person crew just happened to be working nearby and what a treat to talk with people that take pride in what they do, do it well, and are in demand. They never advertise and don't have to. Their subs are also hard to find since they don't advertise either.
The same was true back home. Some of the very best builders are in a niche and never come out. They are very low profile because the jobs just keep coming.
I had a cast aluminum sign made up with the company name and that's it. I look more visible, but don't have tire kickers calling the number off the sign. It's a formula that's worked for my mentors and seems to be alive and well here as well.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Yeah, it's tricky that way. I think I'd be the same way if I was successful- at some point, you only have to advertise if you want to grow, and many carpenters don't want to grow.
That's really the best way to find a job that will be enjoyable- find a job where your coworkers are enjoying their job.
Can't tell much of that from what people say about themselves when they've had time to think about how to present themselves.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
"I'm coming at this from the employee screening out employers . . . "
As an aside, i think that's an important point that employers tend to overlook. It's not a one-way street. A good employee is well worth it, and someone who has other options is worth trying to get.
FWIW, our organization (non-profit design) relies on intern support, so each year we lose some through graduation and have to go through rounds of interviews. Portfolios and examples of work are big for us, but another thing i've found value in is looking for interests outside work. Someone who has a passion for something other than their day job. It can be an indication that they're varied, independent, and run their personal lives with a responsibility similar to their employment.
And like other comments here, i've found the casual interview to be much more introspective than the hard-core 'what word best defines your attitude'-type interview.
"i've found the casual interview to be much more introspective than the hard-core 'what word best defines your attitude'-type interview."
I agree. I have only had one or two of these interviews in my career, but some of the questions HR people dream up seem to me to be ridiculous.
I don't have employees, but I have always said that if I did, I would ask the prospect to show or tell me how to hang an exterior door.
I used to work for a homebuilder and one of the things I did was to hang the entry doors on each house. The reason being, we got tired of having to redo them after they were set only with 16's through the brickmould.
I'm not knocking framers, they are good at what they do, but most don't break out the trim head screws and secure the door behind the weatherstrip to hide all the fasteners.
i had a job just last year for a local contractor (framing) who gave me the task of hanging an exterior door, i went to work with my skillsaw making shims from a scrap 2 x 4 and started setting the door, after about 1-1/2 hours boss comes by (i'm almost done) and says what are you doing? what are all those shims for? dang now I am going to have to do that with all the doors!
i was aghast, i said to him "well what did you want me to do , just nail it up through the brick mold?" he said "yeah, thats all we ever do here", "theres not enough money in these frames to do anything else"
this is within walking distance of the atlantic ocean in north carolina. i quit about 3 days later.