I just started framing decks that will be done with Ipe decking held with EB-Ty fasteners (all owner-supplied). Have never used either product but built plenty of decks. I’m looking for tips and tricks specific to these new (to me) products.
I’m also interested in your take on pricing labour for this system as opposed to more conventional ones like the cedar I am more used to. I was asked to price separately for the framing and the decking application, but since then the client changed his mind and went with Ipe/EB-Ty, so I said all bets were off on the decking price until I saw how the process worked. He agreed and I started framing as per plan.
There are 3 separate decks on different walls of the home, total 1050 SF. Framing is 2×8 PT @ 16″ o/c. Decks are 24″ or less from grade. General climate is dry interior, less than 12″ precip annually. Warm summers to 40°C (103°F) with 16 hrs sunlight daily, cool winters with lows to -20°C (-5°F) and occasional snowfall. Site fronts a large lake with exposure to west and north. Largest deck (600 sf) is mostly covered, the other two are not.
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I have done so many kinds of decks that it is hard to compare. For instance, our other more common deck material is CVG fir, but we nail that and screw the Ipe`. With pre-drilling, the Ipe takes 50-60% longer. Also, for a second story deck or way around back, the weight of the Ipe is an issue. You will take more trips to stock the materials.
The sawdust is yellow, waxy and sulphorus, more of an irritant than toxic, but we wear dust masks.
The waxiness in the sawdust means it will build up on bits and blades and the mineral in it will dull them a bit faster.
You need to use the offered latex end treatment on cuts to seal the end grain, and I would assume in the side channels too, but you have a dry climate so you should be OK there.
I have not used EBTY and have heard mixed reviews. They seem to do better in 4" widths than 6" widths because of the number of fasteners.
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I would be VERY careful about using Eb-Ty and Ipe. There is quite a bit of wood movement with Ipe and you could end up with a deck that is either loose and rattling as the boards shrink, or buckling as the boards swell. Personally I would not even touch it.
Funny you should say that. I was thinking that EB-ty or similar would be the perfect solution with Ipe.
If you have to take time to pre-drill if face or under screwing with IPE, then I would think a biscuit cutter and Eb-ty would be the way to go. No visible fasteners and probably faster than pre-drilling. . .
I did not know IPE moved that much. I have no experience with it, but I thought it was stable because it was so dense.
I've done four Ipe decks. My formula now and forever is, 3/8" gaps between 5/4 x 6 boards when installing dry material in dry weather, and everything is face screwed and plugged. If the owner can't pay for the time to do the screw installation, no deal. It is not about making it fast and easy with Ipe. If you need that you should get a bunch of cedar 2x6 and face nail it with 12d HDG spikes.
'nuff said! I shall defer to your IPE experience.
The width differeence explains that. I use 1x4 instead of 5/4x6. I install at 1/8" gap and it never changes to less than a sixteenth, normally closer to the eighth.I wonder too if you get it delivered dryer than I am setting mine since you see so much swelling.
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I have gotten it from a couple of sources, and it's the same MC range. 12-14% is very typical for lumber stored under roof in unconditioned space around here. My guess is that ipe is moved here in large container loads and that each load lasts quite a while in the warehouse, and therefore it's fairly dry. As opposed to the softwoods, where we are buying them out a few days after each unit comes in...
Anyway, install it tight in the summer and you'll have to redo it in the winter...
LOL, again - regional diff. Our humid wet season is August when I always get calls to free up stuck doors
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I've only used EBTYs one time, and I could tell then that there might be problems down the line with wood moving (both the ipe and the PT joists) and the clips slipping out of their slots, plus the screws they provide are too slender and whimpy to hold much of anything.Check out this thread and see what can happen. Hope you don't have to Register.
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/porch/msg070756155274.html?2http://www.woodsshop.com
My experience is that it is more stable that the Doug fir we used to use.
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I helped a contractor friend with an Ipe' deck last summer. We used the EbTys, but also used PL Premium to hold everything together.
The customers must have been happy, because I know he was back this summer to re-do an older deck. Strip off the PT decking, and install the Ipe'.
If you can, either get the Ipe' with the slots in the edges, or set up a jig to cut the slots while the material is still on horses.
Thanks all for the replies. I'm certainly no closer to having an understanding of how to charge for this beast, so I'll deal with that as things fall into place. I think the HO understands where I'm coming from as the original deck configuration is totally different from what we're looking at now. I spent both days this weekend with him, fixing up the very wrong foundations the architect spec'd for the deck. Some too low, some too high, some out of line, some missing altogether....Lignum est bonum.
Here is something that might be of some help to you. You will be using eb-tys in the field in slots made with a biscuit jointer. But around the edges of the deck, you will not be able to use the eb-tys and you will have to use trim head stainless, counter sink, counter bored and plugged with titebond III. Use the long dozuki saw to saw off the plugs. It works great. Considering there is a lot involved around the edges with the plugs, you might want to charge for 120-150 sf per day with 2 carpenters. I like the idea of using polyurethane glue in addition to the screws. Just remember to predrill the holes where you will be using the eb-tys, or else the Ipe will split. So, it takes time. And with the eb-tys you don't have to worry about drill bits breaking in the hard Ipe. And buy some good quality drill bits.
We've done a couple ipe decks with ebty's and the time was easily more than twice a screwed down deck of more common wood or Trex. If your ipe isn't real straight it can eat up a lot of time since the ebty's don't have a lot of holding power.
The finished deck looks fantastic with the clips and in the rocky mountain region I have yet to hear of someone with problems. Not that I hear many deck stories of any kind.
If it were me I'd tripple the cost of installation over a traditional deck to cover the learning curve and you'll probably end up near the 2x mark on your next deck, if there ever is one.
Some will say that's too much and that charging for the learning curve isn't fair to the client, but this combination may be outdated as we speak as another company is putting out a better product and it makes no sense to eat those costs if the likelihood of a payback is so questionable.
Good decking
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Thanks especially Don and Temujin, those numbers confirm what I was beginning to suspect. It most likely will end up 2-3 times what I would have charged for a screwed down cedar deck (the original plan).
So if 2 carps can do 120-150 sf/day, I'm going to be at or under 100 sf/day with my son/apprentice. And there are 3 separate decks, all with finished perimeter boards on all 4 sides... could be more like 80 sf/day overall. Looks like those fill-in jobs I had planned for end of July will now be bumped to September after my holidays!Lignum est bonum.
At least one outfit in colorado that specializes in decks charges right at double for ipe, but I don't know what their method is and if ebty's are additional.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I've had an Ipe deck with Eb Ty's thats been down since '98 and it still is perfect from the fasteners standpoint. No pulled out screws,no swollen or shrunken 4" deck boards, just a beautiful fastener free top surface that is a joy to walk on.
You're gonna make folks think that it rains a lot in Maine.;)You have a small dog?
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Well, i have to say that I'm not too impressed with the EB-Ty Fastening system. Understand that I have never installed Ipe but I do know what it is and how hard it is to work with.
They EB -Ty system seams like an immense amount of over kill for a deck. But, if that is what a customer wants, that's what he gets. As far as pricing goes, that's easy. If you go onto the EB-Ty Website, you will see that if you count the number of steps per fastener, it is four times the amount of work over a conventional deck installation not to mention the additional costs. Drill bits-you will be replacing them every second or third whole. Biscuit joiner rental or purchase. Don't use your own on this job. TRUST ME! Replacement blade for said biscuit joiner. I have no idea how many of those you will go through. You may as well be cutting concrete.
A friend of mine used Ipe for his deck. He screwed through the top of the board. He said he had to change the drill bit for every hole. that's alot of drill bits.
So to summerize,
1. Predrill, glue, screw, and plug first coarse of boards.
2. biscuit joiner
3. Predill on 45 degree angle
4. Screw
5. Glue
6. and repeat ...............How many times?
You might want to through in a couple of drills to your list of expense and maybe a little bit extra just for the aggrevation.
Good Luck
Dave
That sounds like severe overkill, Dave. You said you have never done this with Ipe`, but you are certain that the slot cutter will be dull from cutting what is "like concrete"The stuff does dull blades sooner, and he might want to figure the cost of one for this job, but I have done whole decks and still used my saw blades for the next job. Cleaning the wax build is half of it. Sending off for sharpening is the other half.As for breaking drill bits in every other hole, either he doesn't know how to drill or he was using those cheap Chinese bits that you can break with your bare fingers. I go 50 to 100 holes with a bit when I predrill for surface screwing.
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Already got a spare biscuit cutter blade ready to go, figured that one ahead of time. Was planning on having all my blades resharpened while away in August, maybe this job pays for some of that.Lignum est bonum.
Back up a bit here. You're committed to Ipe and a virtual lifetime deck. What are the options? Face screw? Crater all that beautiful wood with screw holes, pre-drill for two screws per joist, snap off a lot of screw heads. Using Eb-tys means a biscuit cut and one drilled hole per joist, you may even get away with drill point screws since you're only engaging the very edge of the material. Assuming you're not framing with Ipe, this shouldn't be a major challenge to your equipment and you won't loose screw heads. My only experience with Eb-tys is with meranti and although slower, it's not excruciatingly painful. Shrinkage and expansion should be less of an issue with Ipe than any other decking material, wood or synthetic, and with no visible fasteners, it will look great. Remind your customer that the extra cost for fastening is a small investment amortized over the life span of the deck and encourage him towards a cost plus arrangement, or give him a "not to exceed" number you're comfortable with. Figure on double labor for fastening the deck with the Eb-tys, add more for countersinking and bunging the board ends, remember to oversize your pre-drills for wood movement. Your learning curve will last only a day.Nice that there are customers out there that appreciate quality and contractors who want to supply it.
It always amazes me, the way some talk about Ipe. Yes its hard but if your cutting with carbide saw blades and at least decent drill bits then its fine. Its certainly much slower because of the density and the weight of the material but talk of destroying tools and needed a bit for every hole is crazy. The only way you'll be destroying tools or breaking that many bits is if you force the tool to drill or saw faster than the Ipe will allow. Working with Ipe is just like being stuck in rush hour traffic. You can tailgate, and drive like an idiot but with all the traffic your not going to get anywhere. With Ipe, as will traffic, just understand what you are working with and take what is given to you and go slowly.To all those interested in eb ty's, I've used them once and that deck still looks great. There have been no problems at all and the clips are working just like they should. On the other hand, I still have at least 300 clips that were suppose to be used for the rear deck but I opted for face screwing. The clips work well and look great but they take a ton of time. For my own house I may use something like eb ty's but even then, it takes some much extra labor that it just doesn't seem worth it.
As I said, I've never used the stuff, but a friend of mine has. What I said was based on what he told me.
Dave