I’ve been in carpentry for 20 yrs.The guy that taught me is a hand nailer,and still is.And when i got old enough to run my own crew,I kept on hand nailing.My question is ,Am I alone?
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
The best tool for straight, splinter-free cuts is made even better without a cord.
Featured Video
How to Install Exterior Window TrimHighlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
Depends. Production wise? ... I'd say yeah. I often hand nail to set things, but then bounce along with the gun afterwords.
On habitat sites I've been on we would hand nail when the newbie volunteers were there, when the "regular" volunteers where there we would get out the guns.
Other than that I cant think of any other time I would want to hand nail any repetitive job.
Somewhere along the line you are costing yourself, your clients $$$$$. And when it comes to the finish work quality, nothing like AIR.
Yur hurtin yerself.
Switch now and save some pain.
It's not that I don't drive nails, but not everything.
You really hand nail roof sheeting?
from the plate to the shoe mould.
I'm still just a young guy but framing nailers all the way..That's not to say that I don't carry a hammer, because I do, but as far as production goes you're losing tons of money if you still hand drive all the time. Granted, there's still tons of things that I handdrive,( a good toenoil to move a board a bit or whatever) but I don't even think about framing without my guns. I even have a nailer to shoot metal fasteners in place..
All I ever wanted in life was an unfair advantage...
You can't compete with guns, even if you think you're getting a better product out. Guns are great for throwing a lot of nails - shearwalls, roof nailing, etc. In these cases you can check your work, sweeping for shiners afterward. I started using guns for siding when cement siding showed up, but the drawback is I can't tell if I've hit anything or not, so I end up sweeping inside and sometimes can't get back outside to renail the shiners. This bothers me. The whole way we're headed bothers me.
I'm not a carpenter, just an old house owner (both of us are old). My earlier houses all had drywall, but this has plaster. When doing some of my rehab projects, I was concerned about hammering one side and having the plaster give way on the other side, so I rented an air tool. Worked well so far. I rarely use my hammer for anything serious, and my prized Disston hand saws stay mostly preserved on the wall.
Am I alone?
Yes, you are. There's no reason to hand nail. Why would you hand nail and not use a gun when a gun is a thousand times faster?Times have changed and so have the tools. Hand nailing is just like using a hand saw instead of a circular saw. Just think how much faster you will get all your jobs done and make more profit.
No one here or anywhere can argue this fact. Hand nailing is finished, if you are smart you will invest in guns.
I won't jump on your band wagon.
I personally only use the guns for sheathing. If you frame with a hammer you end up with a larger nail but more importantly it is alot safer. I teach apprentices at a local college and we hash this one over regularilly. Ask all the people you know in this business who has had a nail gun accident framing (usually holding a stud to plate). I would estimate it to be over 75%. A nail gun accident can be very serious or it can be a warning to the operator if they get off easier. The worst accident I have heard of with a hammer,while framing was a guy missing the nail and getting himself in the scalp. A little bloody but no long term implications.
Glad the nailers are working out well for you
Have a good day
CLiffy
Whaaat..... 75% injuries???
What are all you lumberjacks doing up there? :)
Seriously, get with the tour. Don't let idiots play with your tools and get the d..m job done.
There is no argument. Guns get the job done better in properly trained hands.
Too many blackened fingers out there to count. Should we remove hammers from use as well?
Cheers
a larger nail but more importantly it is alot safer.
Sorry to rain on your paraDE, BUT HAVE USED BOTH AND THE REASON (SORRY) you hand nail is just an excuse. I have sent a nail upon occasion into my flesh. Nothing serious. Just keep on moving. If you teach hand nailing to students you are missing an oportunity to teach upto date and safe methods of using air tools.
It's alright, you can come into the 21rst. century. Remember all the hand nailing will cause arthiritis in the joints, eventually. A nail into a finger is an injury that is fine in 2 or 3 days. trust me, I am 54 and suffer from arthiritis in hands, elbows and shoulders, all a direct result of hand nailing in my early years. This is what you are not taking into account when you teach hand nailing, in a production setting.
Again, I teach the apprentices to realize that nailing studs to plates carries an usually high accident rate. They have to deal with that in their own way.
I have used both as well and I frame by hand by choice not excuse. I'm happy for you that the nails to your flesh have not been serious.
Have a good day
Cliffy
, I teach the apprentices to realize that nailing studs to plates carries an usually high accident rate.
I personaly would like to see some sources for that statement.
Hand nailing is a thing of the past, and while the basics should be taught, to insist that students hand nail is a disservice to them and their future employers. In the real world, you might find 1 out of 100 contractors still hand nailing. Is it correct to teach a dying art?
Insist students hand nail. I never said that. Again I try to get them to realize the very real safety concerns of framing nailers. As well as safety concerns of pretty much every thing a carpenter may encounter.
As far as sources for my opinions on nail guns dangers: Check out JLC July 2008, page 19. 42,000 injuries in 2005. That only includes those injuries that required an emergency room visit.
Also for interest go back and check out FHB 194 May 2008 page 20. That one is especially nice.
For you guys that frame exclusivelly, maybe you have mastered that tool and are not concerned or worried because of your experience.
Personnally, I'm in a different market niche and the framing part of each job is only a small component. I load up the guns for sheathing, shingling and trim. I don't think I'm slowed very much because I hand nail studs, rafters etc.
Have a good day
CLiffy
For you guys that frame exclusivelly, maybe you have mastered that tool and are not concerned or worried because of your experience.
It has nothing to do with just being a Framer. It's all trades and learning how to use power tools and nails guns. You will use them every day and get used to them, plain and simple!
How are you supposed to get to know how to use a tool unless you use it. Learning how to use a nail gun is the same as learning how to use a circular saw, miter saw, table saw and any other dangerous tool. Ladders are dangerous also. Have any statistics on how many people fall off ladders? You have to learn how to use ladders.
Personnally, I'm in a different market niche and the framing part of each job is only a small component. I load up the guns for sheathing, shingling and trim.
Your still using guns. It's no different than using a framing gun.
Joe Carola
If you frame with a hammer you end up with a larger nail but more importantly it is alot safer.
True you have a larger nail, but the codes have tables for gun nails. One thing I like about framing with .131" nails is that they are easy to pull (yes I pull nails :-)) and they don't split as often.
But in CA I think in a lot of places they use a full .162" nail which is bigger than the .148" sinkers most hand nail with.http://www.pioneerbuildersonline.com
View Image
From Lot 30 Muirkirk
http://picasaweb.google.com/TimothyUhler
Those nails also cut quicker with the saw-z-all.
Have a good day
CLiffy
Those nails also cut quicker with the saw-z-all.
True, but with the right recip saw & blade, it doesn't matter.
I would like to say one thing though to your comment about the high accident rate. I wonder how that compares with other parts of construction. If all the different accidents were charted, would gun nail injurys (serious ones) stand head and shoulders above the other accidents that are accounted for?
And is it specifically nailing walls together that is the particularly dangerous for nail gun users? I don't seen nailing sheathing or rafters or joists to be much of an issue.
If it is wall framing, then is the risk inherent in guns and can't really be avoided therefore hand nailing is preferable? Or is it the nature of many jobsites and the lack of training?
I'd guess training. I started using a framing gun when I was 15 and the first thing the lead guy showed me was what not to do :-). He told me about guys on the crew who didn't listen and shot themselves framing walls.
I went quite a while before I shot myself. It was my fault and no harm came of it. But now the first thing I do is show someone the proper way to use the gun and we haven't had any accidents that a band-aid wouldn't take care of (knock on Carola's head) :-) haha
I do know that it is sufficiently high for the sequential triggers to have been mandated.
http://www.pioneerbuildersonline.com
View Image
From Lot 30 Muirkirk
http://picasaweb.google.com/TimothyUhler
I don't know about the charting of all the accidents. As I said to Framer 52, check out JLC July 2008 or FHB 194 may 2008, for some interesting reading on nail gun accidents. I
I don't just focus in on this issue as far as accidents are concerned. I try and teach them to always be focused on their work and respect the tools they are using. As far as nailing studs being the biggest worry I think the bump fire gun is the second worry. Some shots to yourself can pretty much demo your thumbs usefullness.
I like to hand nail framing because I think it is safer and I like the 3 1/2 inch ardox nail for strength and holding power. I absolutely load the gun for wall and roof sheathing. Im a degign build guy so I'm there from drawing right through to the end so the few hours in one house frame is worth the trade off for me.
Have a great day
Cliffy
PS Sometimes I wash the dishes in the sink instead of the dishwasher!
Ask all the people you know in this business who has had a nail gun accident framing (usually holding a stud to plate). I would estimate it to be over 75%. A nail gun accident can be very serious or it can be a warning to the operator if they get off easier.
Cliffy,
Saying that is like comparing it to how many guys have had handsaw accidents compared to circular saw accidents. There are tons of people cutting themselves with circ saws. You might as well go back and use a handsaw. Using nail guns is part of the business and part of the change in times with tools. All power tools and nail guns are dangerous. You just have to know how to use them.
Teaching people to hand nail and not use guns because hand nailing is safer makes no sense. If that were that case you should teach your students to use all hand tools and no power tools at all. Will you use a hand saw and little 3.00 box to cut trim or will you use a miter saw with a nice 12" blade?
I was going to ask you if you were in your 60's but I just looked and you're 40. Your not an old timer yet, why in the world are you behind the times and not teaching with the proper tools?
Joe Carola
Edited 2/18/2009 12:21 pm ET by Framer
Good analogy, Joe.
The worst saw accident I ever witnessed was when my dad was finishing cutting the notches on a set of stair strings. The HANDsaw jumped from the cut, and ripped apart the back of his left hand. He had to get stitches.
Between my grandfather, my dad, and myself (the carpenters I know best), there's over 100 years of experience. None of us ever injured ourselves with a circular saw. Or a nail gun.
IMO, its pretty rediculous for a teacher to not teach current techniques. He's doing his students, and the trade itself, a disservice.
On a different subject- are you going to be able to make the lunch this Saturday? Since Glenn's not going to be there, we can talk about him. <G>
I think you are extrapalating a little what I said. First and foremost I told you I was glad nail guns are working out for you. I also said I use my guns regularilly. As far as teaching the apprentices to only hand nail, I never said that. I merely try to get them to realize that framing with a nailer is a repeat offender as far as accidents are concerned. That particular operation carries an unusual high amount of injuries, primarily because like so many other things in this industry, too many people are always concerned about what is fastest. Personally I don't believe fast out weighs safety. Yes circular saws, and pretty much every other tool we use can be dangerous if not used properly, with 100% attention on the task. Using nail guns is part of the business, but in the particular niche that I'm in ,I choose to frame with a hammer for several reasons.
Have a good day
Cliffy
I merely try to get them to realize that framing with a nailer is a repeat offender as far as accidents are concerned.
So is a circular saw, miter saw, table saw...etc. They are all repeat offenders. There are no statistics that prove which one has more.
That particular operation carries an unusual high amount of injuries, primarily because like so many other things in this industry, too many people are always concerned about what is fastest.
Where is the proof compared to the other tools I mentioned above?
Personally I don't believe fast out weighs safety.
I don't either, but using nail guns, circular saw, miter saw, table saw ..........etc is what everyone needs to use in order to stay in business. If your so worry about safety, don't use any power tools at all, period! They are all dangerous no matter what way you look at it. You just have to learn how to use them. Same way you have to learn how to drive, or walk up a ladder 24' in the air.
Yes circular saws, and pretty much every other tool we use can be dangerous if not used properly, with 100% attention on the task.
Add that to your students along with the nail guns.
Using nail guns is part of the business, but in the particular niche that I'm in ,I choose to frame with a hammer for several reasons.
That's fine and it works for you, keep doing it.
Joe Carola
Joe, if you have a minute check out JLC july 2008, page 19. Jon Vara has a great article on a couple of nail gun studies. Also FHB issue 194 May 2008 has the latest on that guy who nailed himself in the head.
Have a good day
CLiffy
How can you call yourself a carpenter if you can't use a hammer? I'm old , but not that old.
How can you call yourself a carpenter if you can't use a hammer? I'm old , but not that old.
Who said I can't and don't still swing a hammer? Any idiot can swing a hammer. It's not Rocket Science. If you can't swing a hammer or learn how to use nail guns or any other tool, you better pack it in, period!
Do you know how to use a nail gun?
Joe Carola
I think he was addressing that to me . I was trying to be funny. Sorry, funny is hard online!
Did you tell him that you can't swing a hammer?
Joe Carola
To that effect, just trying to make fun of us lefties!
Just think, they still haven't come out with a lefty wormdrive............
Joe Carola
lefty wormdrive
You have it backwords, they haven't come out with a righty!
You have it backwords, they haven't come out with a righty!
I meant they don't have a left handed wormdrive.
Joe Carola
They all cut on the side that a lefty sidewinder does! That is why they are all lefthanded!
Alright, the wormdrive has the blade on the left side, not the right side. The wormdrive is supposed to be designed for a right hander (so they say)so that they can see the blade when they cut.
What I'm saying is that they DON'T make a wormdrive with the blade on the right side so that when you lefties hold the wormdrive you can see the blade.
I mentioned this many times before about the wormdrives only making the blades on one side which is the left side. They should make them on the right side also for the lefties to use. I could be wrong, maybe they make one now. I haven't sen one yet.
Joe Carola
Neither have I. I heard a rumor about Dewault, but haven't seen anything yet.
Joe,
I don't think it is manufactured any more but either Rockwell or Porter Cable had one on the market back in the seventies. I had a lefty carp working for me and he owned and used one.
6 1/2" if I recall.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I agree with you on the wormdrive not being made for lefties.I'm left handed too.I've always used a worm gear(thats what we call them in Md.)and still looking for a leftie one. I have a mag 77 and love it.
I agree with you on the wormdrive not being made for lefties.I'm left handed too.I've always used a worm gear(thats what we call them in Md.)and still looking for a leftie one. I have a mag 77 and love it.
and I thought I was a dinosaur!
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Well, I guess there are a couple of em left.
Ram40--
I don't know if I would do any production framing hand nailing--- but I still hand nail a lot----and a lot of things are hand nailed all the time.
A guy on this forum who lays beautifull slate roofs----- bet he hand nails every one, LOL
I bet he likely hand nails the decking when he re-nails that.
i am a roofer---hand nailing isn't entirely dead here.--- I thought I knew of the last crew hand nailing 100% here--- but a couple years ago the switched over----- last year I found out about another that hand nails
as far as gun nailing saving the customer money-- I don't think that is accurate. Let's say I get $9000 for a certain roof------ I certainley don't charge LESS if it is gun nailed-- so where is the savings?
many things, if i am working alone I just go ahead and hand nail--- because I LIKE it---- but keep in mind I am driving a zillion 1-1/4" roofing nails- and not 16d framing nails.
I don't know what sort of work you do---- but production wise it might be difficult to compete as a sub selling production framing hand nailed
however-- if you are dealing directly with the homeowner-the end user -- in remodeling or roofing------- you can absolutely use hand nailing as a selling point and make it part of your process that you sell- part of your schtick.
stephen
I noticed that he never said what kind of nailing, but everyone here responded from their own background. I still do some roof hand naioling and that is what our backgrounds are. The framers here talked of framing nails. I would rarely think of framing without a gun, but it is a conscious decision whether to break out the nailer for a roof or not.And for trim work, the gun is an absolute.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"And for trim work the gun is an absolute"Interior trim work - yes. On the exterior stuff, unless you are shooting stainless steel finish nails, you have to hand nail with galvanized.
Also, lately I am doing a lot of cedar shake siding. Every last one of 'em is hand nailed.
But overall it's hard to beat a nail gun.
Alexei
right on
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
we do it all. framing and trim.16dfor studs ,three in 2by6 ,8d for sheathing.and all types for trim and cornice and siding.
Hey Ram40
Where do you hail from?
What part of the universe?
I know in some areas where guys use more hand nails than others. Just curious
I hail from Maryland and work in the suburbs of DC.GO REDSKINS !!!
Wow. I am surprised in those parts there is still some hand nailing.
I worked for NVR for years but in North Carolina, DE, and So Jersey.
Home is ummmm Philadelphia!!!!
Fly Eagles Fly!! (I just bought an older car from one of my clients who emigrated from DC area. The car has both Eagles and Redskins stickers on it)
Somewhere in this discussion you asked why guns were better. I started out before guns, and I can nail even though I'm left-handed. Hand nailed everything from summer jobs in '63 until '82 when I got my first double firing POS brown Senco, but... nails guns don't move stuff around like a hammer. so more wood stays on the line... and there's heckofa lot less splits, which means a lot more to the trimmer (and the finished job) than the framer.And, I think anybody teaching kids about carpentering better get them hip to nail guns, 'cause that's what they'll be using when they get a building job.As a trim guy, hand nailing is stone age and the results look like it, and, I hire roofing out<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
Somewhere in this discussion you asked why guns were better. I started out before guns, and I can nail even though I'm left-handed
Now I am left handed also and after 30+ yrs with a hammer, I still can't nail,>G<
This thread finally got a little bit interesting for an old thread re-hash.
Stephen, I think you would do very well selling a hand nailed job...IF.... you don't try too hard focusing on that aspect of your service.
I met a guy here in Austin that only hand drives and sells his roofs at $300 per square because of it. One of the problems with his selling technique is that he tended to focus more on the negative aspects of the gunners rather than the positive reasons for hand nailing. I say it's a "problem" because the gunners, if they are decent at sales, can easily overcome the gun vs hand if the focus was negative by simply using the explanation already given in this thread: "a quality minded installer will do a great job using either tool".
So, if you were selling me a roof and tried too hard to make a big deal out of handnailing, it might affect my opinion of you....if the guy who has already set me straight about the real issue: the mechanic behind the gun...not the gun itself.
That said, I would not let a hand pounder trim a house for me. Air is the way to go for trim.
Framing? I resisted guns early in my career then did a 180 and embraced them at every level for framing. They allowed me, a tired "old" guy at age 50, to hang in all day and be much fresher in body and mind at the end of 8, 9 or ten hours.
One thing I might add about the gun vs hand nail argument. When I hand nailed, I tried to go fast. When I gun nailed, I never felt the need to go fast and I never tried to go fast. I was always more focused on getting the nail exactly where I wanted/needed it and of course, made sure I never got stuck. I would have that same mentality on the roof with a nail gun. There would be no canted nails and they all would be exactly in the zone they were supposed to be. That happens because of the familiarity I would have with my equipment.
blue-----AND snort the original poster asked if hand nailing was dead my discussion has been with the specific aspect of it that I personally know about------ you notice I have stayed away from trim carpentry installs etc.--as that is not relevant to me-------- I would let the people actually engaged in THAT discuss the merits. I do notice, however that one of the attributes of a gun driven nail-----might be a positive in one instance-- but a negative in another you notice on a trim nail situation-- the gun IS great----partly because it doesn't tend to knock the pieces being assembled around, out of alignment etc.- the piece stays right where it is--and the nail is shot right through it--GREAT in trim work NOT so great elsewhere---- for example
if I tear off a roof--- the tear-off tools exert considerable torque on all the 1x8 roof decking---really loosens the whole deck up. once all the loose/proud nails are pulled-- I can come back and gun nail the deck---- but on a 1x8 deck---- the 8d gun nails run right through the deck board into the rafter--WITHOUGHT sucking the deck board down to the rafter so the decking can be re-nailed with a gun---but still too loose. Re-nailing it by hand---pulls it together tight***** take note*****-- this is MUCH less of an issue if the roof being torn off was a plywood or OSB deck-- the 4x8 panels-- don't get torqued as much in the first place. Also-- if replacing misc. pieces of 1x8--essentially a new wood install--- the gun nailing works just fine now--- the guy in Austen at $300/sq.-- regional differences make that irrelevant most likely---- I am considerably above that--sometimes twice that even still mostly gun nailing One thing you are very much correct about-- how it's presented is key. If you look at several of my previous posts in this thread- I went to great pains to point out------ that it is part of an overall strategy--it doesn't stand alone, but it works in conjunction with everything else I highlight-our direct employees, our workers comp, our care in protecting landscaping-lawns-siding, the materials we recommend, the amount of icegaurd specified AND WHERE specified, how we handle debris removal, and why---and so,on and so on and so on. the guy in Austin?--- it he spends a lot of time talking about why gun nailing is worse-- he is going to come off looking, defensive ,angry,bitter , irrational we don't concentrate on that- the negatives instead we talk about WHY we do something a specific way---WHY this way is better, WHY we recommend this product, WHY we remove all debris from the job site each day, WHY the workers are covered by workers comp., WHY the liability insurance is so vital, WHY things will be flashed a certain way and so on,and so on,and so on
the hand nailing is part of MANY differences we are stressing IF we get to the point where we are back to 100% hand nailed we will very much point out that we started out hand nailing, switched to gun nailing and in fact gun nailed for precisely how long---- and that despite an investment over the years in guns, compressors etc---we have gone back to hand nailing BECAUSE9 (why) points A,B,C,D,E and so on.
we don't ever need to talk anybody else down--- just talk about how we do things and WHY
the attributes that might make hand nailing valuable to me in roofing---- may very well NOT apply to somneone building mahogany fireplace mantles--and I am fine with that because I am not in the business of building or selling fireplace mantles, LOL you know- someone else in this thread mentioned they have never been asked about how their nails will be driven--so their is no value to that for them I suppose--------- but you know what I get asked very frequently?- more than half the time--and almost ALWAYS by men ? " what type of fastner do you use?"--- now--- what they are REALLY asking is, in different words, " do you use staples?"Think about THAT--- when asked " what type of fastner do you use?"----- it's a PERFECT opportunity to pull out a bucket of hot dipped galv. roofing nails and discuss why a hand nailed roof is better,why the hot dipped Galv. nail is better than the E.G. gun nails and so on and so on.-- the propsective customer has INVITED me to do so. you know, Frenchy asked a while ago in another thread about why customers should choose one contractor over another ,especially when they can't readily tell one product from another--------- so- imagine you have 2 contractors. In the case of roofing they are almost certainley selling the same shingles from the same 3 or 4 manufacturers--what's the difference other than price?- If you ask the 2 roofing contractors they are almost certainley going to say the SAME things" WE do quality work at a fair price"----- but they are completely un-able to specifically articulate WHY their quality is any BETTER or ,indeed, any different than the other guy. I may be selling the same GAF/ELK Timberline shingle or the same Certainteed Landmark shingle as the next guy in the driveway---but my price is higher( 1-1/2 or 2 times higher?)WHY is that?- well I am prepared to talk to the homeowner about reasons A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I ,J ,K and so on. I want a list as long as my arm about specifically WHY. I don't want to be left mumbling something about " we do quality work at a fair price "- I want to specifically DEFINE quality and highlight how we EXCEED even that and for how LONG we have been doing so! gotta run-- it's going to be 50 degrees here today-- I wanna take the dogs for a walk, go for a long bike ride AND I have a meeting with a guy from the CITY about buying a building--all to cram into the day before it rains this afternoon.Best wishes,
stephen
we do custom homes and remodeling. when i started i remember the nail dispensers the roofers used to hang around there necks for cedar roofs.
Still got my nail box. I haven't hand nailed a roof in over20 years. I do hand nail side wall cedar shingles but don't get much of that.
I've always hand nailed and still do all form work. Don't know of a duplex nailer. And for small jobs I feel I can out do a screw gun nailing off drywall with my drywall hatchet.
But I assure you there is nothing better than air guns otherwise especially trim.
You might out do a screw gun for drywall, but you are also more likely to get nail pops down the road. Screws stay in the wood better when the wood starts to shrink than nails.
But I use 8d ringshank. 8)
we do it all. framing and trim.16dfor studs ,three in 2by6 ,8d for sheathing.and all types for trim and cornice and siding.
we do custom homes and remodeling. when i started i remember the nail dispensers the roofers used to hang around there necks for cedar roofs.
They make guns for everything that you do. The faster you get them, the faster you will get your jobs done and make more money.
Why would you still hand-nail all this time when you know that guns are faster?
Joe Carola
Not to mention less wear and tear on the body!
I hand nailed for years, trust me hand nailing is hard on the joints!!
Realised I addressed ti wrong, sorry Joe.
Edited 2/17/2009 1:39 pm ET by frammer52
I started framing in 1983 hand nailing every day for a year. Moved to Cape Cod in 84 and started using guns. Makes no sense to not use nail guns. Same as when everyone used handsaws and then the circular came out. The older carpenters are the only ones who I've run into that won't use nail guns.
Joe Carola
In Syracuse we have one crew that won't use them. Buch of family members. They are good framers and fasrt for hand nailers. I to this day don't understand why they won't invest in guns. We have worked right next to them, they have come over and we all talked about it, I guess they won't change until the old man dies. he is 76 now and frames every day.
he is 76 now and frames every day.
That age explains it all, they won't change. I respect them, but when it comes to the argument about hand nailing vs gun nailing they are 100% wrong. I'm sure there are framing crews out there who hand nail that have such a good system that they could beat a framing crew with gun nails on the same house because the framing crew with guns don't have a good system. Still, it doesn't make any sense to hand nail whether your framing, trimming, siding, roofing..........etc.
Joe Carola
I agree!
joe,
it can make PERFECT sense if you are dealing with the homeowner--and a " hand nailed job" is what you sold them. I don't see how it could be an advantage wholesaling your services to a GC-- but if retailing your projects direct to a homeowner-- it could absolutely make sense Let me point out----- I could argue EITHER side of this position with equal conviction and rationailty let me ask---- is it possible in 2009 to buy hand made,hand sewn shoes?????-- for me- the value wouldn't be there---- but it IS there for some people-----it's all a matter of what you are selling.stephen
joe,it can make PERFECT sense if you are dealing with the homeowner--and a " hand nailed job" is what you sold them.
Why would I sell the HO a hand nailed job? That would never come up unless they brought it up and insisted on it. Then they would pay extra for it.
Do you ask a HO if they want a hand nailed or gun nailed job? I've never heard of that before. Maybe this is a Regional thing here.
Joe Carola
I have heard of roofers using this as a selling point. Me, I want the roofer to have a gun. Lots more nails in the shingles!!!
Can you believe the teacher teaching people to hand nail instead of gun nail? Talk about being 20 yrs behind!
"Me, I want the roofer to have a gun. Lots more nails in the shingles!!!"And 90% of them in the wrong place!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Maybe, but they aren't coming off!>G<
Frammer52--
ah--- but they DO come off! most shingles used now are laminates
most are gun-nailed when nailing a laminate- the nail must go through both laminations( the shim portion and the dragons tooth) to mechanically fasten the 2 parts of the shingles together AND to get the highest wind rating Certainteed for example- will allow you to nail into an "Expanded nail zone" which MISSES the shim portion of the laminate and goves you a reduced wind resistance rating what will happen over time is that the shim portion of the shingle will slide down hill and off the roof
I find this time and time again on repairs and older dimensional shingle roofs it doesn't happen early in the roofs life span----when it's still ostensibly covered by an installers labor warranty------- instead it happens 10-15 years down the road when the shingles adhesives have aged and become weak so-- how does this come into play in the gun nailing/hand nailing situation?
well- with gun nailing- the emphasis is on speed.-- listen to a gun nailing crew-bang,bang,bang, bang--- it's a constant barrage of rapid firing- very productive--- but if you look closely---what is sacrificed for speed--- is quality in nailing placement---- almost invariably each shingle-- or a substantial number of shingles are high nailed--- which mean that the shim is hanging by the adhesive only--and isn't mechanically fastened to the roof ALSO- when the laminate shingle is high nailed-missing the underlieing shingle- the top edge of the underlying shingle acts as a fulcrum and increases the likelyhood that the gun nail will damage the overlieing shingle-- in fact it's almost gauranteed in cooler temps-say under 50 degreess0---- we could SAY it's "just as good"( gun nailing)--- but there are many many instances where it is demonstrably NOT as good.
hand nailing greatly increases the likelihood that the nails are placed where they need to be placed.
stephen
Stephen, i haven't been on a roof nailig shingles since around 1995. I used to gun nail very rapidly, up to 25 squares on a good day. I can tell you, I missed high, but when I did I renailed the shingle, all of it. What you are telling me, is that roofer's don't do that today? If that is the case, I would be fireing a lot of roofers
frammer52, one thing to consider-----and which has definitely changed since 1995--is that you can have a guy in his mid 20's now who has been installing shingles for 3-5-7 years or more--and has NEVER so much as laid a 3tab shingle he has no clue as to lay out, no ability to project lines around dormers, chimneys etc.-- he counts on the semi forgiving nature of random dimensional shingles to "fudge" everything to make it work. what he does is strictly "slap & tack"--so speed is everything to him almost universally-- the gun leads to high nailing---and not the occasional high nail you mentioned compensating for----- but consistent systemic high nailing worse than THAT ( as if it isn't bad enough)- is that a great many gun nails- spread over the roof-- will be canted--- that is driven crooked so that one edge of the nail head remains just above the surface of the shingle-----and over the next few years this cuts through the shingle above it, eventually causing a leak. now- when we laid 3-tab shingles with a gun--after you went to the ground-- you could look up at the roof and see where those nails were( because the shingle above would not lie flat)--and pound the offending nail flat.- with dimensional shingles you can not see this----and so THERE is a defective installation---a time bomb ticking away. Of course the LEAK- probably won't surface for years after the installers labor warranty runs out--- but it IS going to happen. As an aside--- if an applicant mentioned to me that they can lay 25 sq. on a good day( no offense to you)- but i would immediately remove them from consideration because it demonstrates a mind set I am actively trying to avoid. in our work-- between protecting the customers siding- landscaping- lawn etc., actually tearing off the old roof, repairing any bad wood, prepping things out---ice gaurd,titanium UDL etc., Bending custom flashing, re-shingling, and of course clean up--- any individual roofer doesn't have to install much more than 2 sq. in a day--almost never more than 3 sq.--so speed simply isn't a factor most of our customers over the years have been projects in the 10-15 sq. range on 10/12 or 12/12 roofs--- so we might do the front of a house today- the back of the house tommorrow, and porches and garages the day after that---and the clean-up and landscaping protection has to be essentially flawless---again, no reflection on you--- but a guy who sees his contribution and value as deriving from laying 25 sq. in a day maybe is more suited to new construction work------ he would have limmited value to what we do.
Best wishes---gonna hit 44 degrees today and I am going bicycling,
stephen
The day I laid 25 sq. and I have done it on several occasions, are days I wasreroofing apartments. I really don't believe it can be done on a house!>G<
I once laid 27 sq three tabs hand naiing in a long day. Regularly laid 12-16 by 2-3PM each day. I never saw the day I ccould lay faster with a gun, just easier on my old body to use a gun noiw, but myt rate never went up. Back in the day before they improved guns and compressors, I would always lay more by hand. The gun was faster in spurts, but now all day long
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
My hand nailing average was only 8/day, but I could lay up a lot of siding!<G>
Shoot my average was 2 in 3. Two squares in three hours. How crummy was I.
But now when called for I can get close to 40 sqs, 2 layers off and 1 back on, in an 8 hour day...
using a 12 man crew.
you scared me for a minute!
Ya except for the 12 man crew I'm darn near a roof beaver.
Doesn't it make you wonder when you go by one of these jobs why the roof load limit isn't exceeded. I counted 9 men standing very close together one day next to 3 sq's of shingles, had to be over a ton in a 20sqft area.
Hazlett,
I've been following this discussion with interest and I agree with you. My first day on a roof was in 1966--before nail guns. As a young roofer, hand-nailing fast was more than a way to make money--it was a sport. My first job, in a Levitt development, was the site of several "races". The issue then was whether it was faster to go straight up the roof or in steps. In one memorable race, two roofers on identical roofs competed to establish who was the fastest roofer and which was the fastest installation pattern. The step guy beat the straight up guy by six shingles, which indicated to me that there was not a whole lot of difference in the two methods.
As a young man, I got pretty fast at hand-nailing; my record was 22 squares in one day. It was on a townhouse project and it included papering in the roof as well as cutting into and flashing a couple of walls. I went up in vertical rows, by the way, because of the shapes of the sections, which were taller than they were wide. I was in my mid-twenties and had been shingling for several years.
Part of the process of maturing from a teenage roofer into an adult builder was learning that nailing down as many squares as possible was not the essence of being a good roofer. I learned that careful layout might take a few more minutes but the result--arrow-straight courses--was so much more satisfactisfying than getting that extra half-square on in a day. I also learned that the really important part of a roof is not the shingles; it's the flashing. There are also the issues you mentioned, such as protecting the house during a tear-off, clean-up and basic consideration of the customer's feelings. A nail gun has nothing to do with these things.
This attitude has carried over to all aspects of building for me. I don't work in a frenzy. My main emphasis is to build things that are sound and durable. I work methodically and make good, steady progess. I own and use nail guns but they aren't central to what I do. Because I do repairs and remodeling, I still do a lot of hand nailing.
I don't roof for a living but I roof what I build--by hand. This fall, I reroofed the house that I built for my parents in 1980. I spent a lot of time doing the following: stocking the roof; cutting back rakes; eliminating three roof vents and patching the openings; cutting a slot for ridge vents; cutting back the rakes; building a cricket; flashing the chimney; flashing a wall; cutting rakes, caps and other shingles. I also installed a rake board and redid the top of the chimney. When it came to shingling, I was able to nail down about 2 squares an hour. It was the easiest part of the job and I enjoyed it.
You wouldn't believe how many sqyuares of shingles I have replaced in teh last couple years, every one of them overniled withtoo many gun nails in the wrong places. They do indeed blow off when young idjits thinkm they can beat quality with quantity.Same thing as nailing a hundred and ten 8d through a piece of sheathing if only six of them hit rafters
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I think it would be a whole lot easier to sell a homeowner on the speed and efficiancy of a nail gun job, than hand nailed!i do know one roofing co. that trys to sell this with some success but he tells me it is not a whole lot more money rather than reputation he gets.I would be a banker or an accountant if i had to go back to hand nailing!
You have obviously never had to "clean-up" after a roofing crew that went slap-happy with a nail gun.or had to finish 9 out of 10 nails with your hammer because the gun couldn't keep up.or had to add another nail on the 1 out of 10 because THAT nail blew thru.you can't use a gun on cold shingles. (you actually shouldn't be shingling any way)Nail guns are great...for guys who know how to use them.for the rest of the hacks out there nail guns just allow them to drive at 75 mph (mistakes per hour)(actually more like per minute).and on a roof mistakes get expensive, framing not so much..
.
"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
.
.
.
If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
.
.
.
according to statistical analysis, "for some time now, bears apparently have been going to the bathroom in the woods."
Less set up in the morning is a pro, but thats where it stops. Oh and I guess no hoses to trip on.
Joe,i don't think i have ever had a customer remotely interested in the SPEED of our installation. To our customers---- the potential speed of a nail gun is a non-issue--they really don't care.what they DO care about is how thorough we are going to be and how conscientious our projects are going to be. I talk a prospective customer step by step through exactly what we do calling ---attention to specific things that highlight my conscientious attitiude--- how we tear-off, how we handle debris removal, how we protect lawns,landscaping,siding etc., how we handle flashing details, WHY we 6 nail every shingle and exactly WHERE each of those 6 nails goes, how much ice gaurd we use-and where--and so on and so onthe SPEED of a nail gun????? I would NEVER mention it-- it's totally counter productive to what I am selling. I do understand that if somebody was a framing contractor---- how quickly they could stand up projects might be key to their bottom line-- but I pursue a different attitude as a practical matter-we arrive on a job site at say 7;30-we spend 15 -30 minutes tarping things off,setting up ladders, building debris chutes,leaning protective plywood against the house,etc.---we might spend 1-2 hours tearing off, 2 hours replacing bad wood, icegaurd, titianium, drip edge,snapping lines--in general laying things out----and then maybe 2 hours or 2-1/2 hours actually laying shingles. Hopefully by the time we are done laying shingles for the day the laborer(s) has everything cleaned up-and most equipment packed up---and we are gone for the day----guns don't REALLY save us that much time either way because the actual shingle installation is a small part of what we actually do---- most of the work is really in protection and prep.In the interest of full disclosure---- I don't currently market our work as "hand nailed"- I still gun nail most of the projects---- but I can reasonably see in the next year or so I might marketing everything as " hand nailed" currently--- gun nailing gives me flexibility as far as the SIZE of my projects balanced with labor-- for example I currently go back and forth a lot between a one day project that might be a slate repair or a small rubber roof which can be done solo--or cost effectively with one helper-------- to a larger project say a 50 square tear-off that still can be done with 2-3 people If I go to all" hand nailed"-- I need a certain size crew-(minimum 4) and we need a certain volume of roofs of a certain size- my flexibility is impacted--- those smaller jobs become less viable. I have been studying this for 2 years---and I can look into the future and reasonably project that we will get there shortly-- but not quite yet---as a practical matter we will probably be " all work hnd nailed" for a year before we actively market our operation as such. think I am crazy???- quite possibly. It's certainley not for everyone-----and i make no value judgements with this-- but I am not in the business of selling speed. For ME- selling spped is a race to the bottom because someone else is ALWAYS gonna be able to slam on a "roof" faster than meand selling low price----would be a race to the bottom because someone else is always gonna be willing to slam on a roof cheaper but selling attention to detail, conscientious application, localness, expertise, how WELL something is done---- well most people are gonna have a problem competing with me there. Yes, it certainley could be done--- but it would be tough to do it consistently.I noticed you ignored my remark about hand sewn shoes in a previous post----there IS a market for that- but it isn't for everyone let's look at simpler,more affordable consumer goods. you know there is a whole "slow food" movement out there-- certain people enthusiastically search out artisanal bread, artisanal cheese, local produce------ want a pecial wine--- i bet it doesn't come from Ernest and Julio Gallo--but rather from some obbsessive compulsive little winery Best beer------ Anheiser Busch product--- or a small micro brewery.
Pizza???-- Pizza Hut---- or some local fanatic with a wood fired brick oven and a stone hearth talking about pizza????-- I once saw a show on TV about a pizza place-- I think in Portland or Seattle----- the guy is a fanatic about pizza--- mixes all dough BY HAND, he allows the customer something like cheese and 2 toppings, and when the days mix of dough is gone-- he closes---- says he opens at 5:00 pm--- and often closes by 8:00 because he is out of dough---and he refuses to mix up more.
Crazy?-------- well he certainley does things opposite of traditional resteraunt practice--- but he probably succeeds because enough people value HIS product over a Domino's delivery. you asked WHY would you sell a customer a hand nailed job?
I think the reasoning is pretty obvious. the value of SPEED-- is counter productive to what i am about--and the attribute of speed is also only concievably of value for a day or so of the actual installation but-- the value of hand nailing?---- if it is part of all the other things I talked about, the entire process and attitude-well then the value is there for a generation. Some people see that- some people don't--and I am totally fine with that because I know what i am selling and who i am selling it to.Seriously,-very best wishes to you,
stephen
The speed issue is right on the head so to speak.
I sell my work to clients that are more concerned about the work and the result and are less concerned about speed.
When is the last time any one of us was happy about an oil change or a car repair based on how fast it was done.
I also realize we are all in different markets selling different jobs. I think it would be obvious that I am not a production framer, not so obvious to some that I am in the 21st century.
Have a good day
Cliffy
Speed on a job, gets you done quicker and on to the next. It is called competitiveness! We all aren't like Stephen, some have to sell lots of jobs each year.
frammer 52, not to belabor the point-- but maybe you HAVE to "sell lots of jobs each year"--- BECAUSE you are selling SPEED-- or cost ? BTW---- I don't think there is anything wrong with what you are doing exactly--- it's a specific technique------ I just think it's not entirely logical to simply declare that "hand nailing is dead"-- because it doesn't fit in with the specific part of the marketplace YOU are in.-- AGAIN--- I don't know if hand nailing would be viable for me if I was a framing contractor--because presumably speed would be a large portion of what I would be selling.Speed is a limmited component of what I am selling--- but it might well and honestly be part of the very nature of what you are selling---so it's an apples to mangos comparisonAlso- as Piffen noted-- in trim work I think I might have a very difficult time making a case for hand nailing qualitiatively--- but in roofing and especially in the older established neighborhood market-------- an excellent case for quality can be made for hand nailing. I DON'T think I could make the same qualitative argument successfully if I was selling roofing services in the new construction market either so--- for me it comes down to--we all have to know exactly what we are really selling.Best wishes,
stephen
BECAUSE you are selling SPEED-- or cost
Depends. Cost can be a selling point if you are more productive. The problem is too many builders that don't know their true costs. That is something, I was guilty of years ago.
it can make PERFECT sense if you are dealing with the homeowner--and a " hand nailed job" is what you sold them.
I said, "Why would I sell the HO a hand nailed job? That would never come up unless they brought it up and insisted on it. Then they would pay extra for it."
"Do you ask a HO if they want a hand nailed or gun nailed job? I've never heard of that before. Maybe this is a Regional thing here."
i don't think i have ever had a customer remotely interested in the SPEED of our installation. To our customers---- the potential speed of a nail gun is a non-issue--they really don't care.
Why did you say if I sold them a "hand nailed job"?
What tools or guns I use is a non-issue when selling a job. Hand nailing or gun nailing has never once been brought up, ever. I'm not selling speed either. Speed and tools are never mentioned when selling a job.
Joe Carola
Actually Joe,- i think that you ARE selling speed- wether you realize it or not. virtually all your arguments FOR the gun- have revolved around around its' speed, your need to be competitive, to sell more jobs and complete them faster---- what else is that besides selling speed? i will tell you something-- I have ZERO interest in being competitive-- to me, it's a dirty word-- because to be competitive means i am letting someone else determine the rules of the game-and i have to play on their terms.- i much prefer-- to let some one else compete with ME-- that way I have outlined the terms and the attributes desireable. Based on what you wrote--- you definitely are competing on speed------and since virtually every other competior is using the guns-- YOU have to use them as well in order to keep pace. Matt mentioned something interesting-- the size of the roofing crew who roofs his houses--about a crew of 8 i beleve he said.-- that's slightly larger than what I have seen-- but I am really not knowledgable about the economics of new construction in the old house work that we do, however- if anything 6-8 people is a plus-- and the over all speed of the project is not compromised.- basically we would have 4-6 people which means the speed of the tear-off portion would be increased, the speed of the clean-up increased, and the speed of the prep work increased-- the actual installation time is maybe only 30-505 of the total time---- so it is not a big make or break factor--- total project time would be about the same from the customers standpoint. Many hands make light work.
in new construction---- i would have zero tear-off, much less prep work, and virtually no cleanup work--- so almost everything WOULD be installation-- that would skew my numbers-- luckily, I am not involved in new construction--so that's not a problem lunch time- gotta run--and it's time to walk the puppy again,
stephen
Actually Joe,- i think that you ARE selling speed- wether you realize it or not.
virtually all your arguments FOR the gun- have revolved around around its' speed, your need to be competitive, to sell more jobs and complete them faster---- what else is that besides selling speed?
That means you and every single person on this forum is just selling speed for using guns and every single power tool we own with your thinking. Everyone here has a business that requires tools. Are we not going to use the right tool that gets the job done faster? Should every single contractor use hand tools?
Should I call you and anyone else who doesn't use a gun someone who sells slowness?
I sell my company to frame a project. I don't sell what tools my company uses. My tools and hand nailing or gun-nailing has never been an issue. If it does become one in the future it will be addressed and I will price the job for hand-nailing because it will take longer.
If I want to use all hand tools and not one power tool or nail gun and not use one extension cord, that's my choice. It would be foolish to do so in the year 2009.
I guess we can say everyone who uses circular saw, miter saws, table saws, cordless drills, sawsalls..........etc is selling speed.
Joe Carola
"Still, it doesn't make any sense to hand nail whether your framing, trimming, siding, roofing..........etc."disagree here.When framing, the gun does not hurt the quality one bit, but I can make an arguement for better quality in roofing and siding with hand nailing.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
disagree here.
When framing, the gun does not hurt the quality one bit, but I can make an arguement for better quality in roofing and siding with hand nailing
If that's what you think, that's fine. We'll have to agree to disagree. I will have to say that I'm not talking about gun nailing vinyl siding.
Joe Carola
Frammer,
again--- all your arguments in favor of the gun--come down to the attribute of speed. you never really make a case for the gun doing a better job-- only a faster job on the other hand--as Piffen notes- and as I think I have mentioned---- in roofing it is perfectly feasible to make an excellent case that hand nailing is better It's entirely possible within the next 2-3 years we will be back to hand nailing roofing and it will DEFINETLY be something we adress in some detail with prospective customers. the speed issue will certainley come up---because I will BRING it up at the very beginning the whole point to selling the roof as hand nailed IS that we would be doing it BECAUSE although slower-- it's better in our opinionAND we will provide reasons 1,2,3,4,5 and so on the gun nailing folks are left with"it's faster" think about this---- "do I want to charge the same price as everyone else?-- do I want to charge LESS than everyone else?"---- the answer to that--in my opinion is a solid NO- I want to charge MORE than everyone else----and I want to demonstrate WHY I am worth more!" It would be very difficult to charge MORE-- if we use the same materials,the same labor,the same techniques,the same tools as everyone else---we WANT to be different and prepared to make the case that we are worth more precisely because of those differences. We already make the same case on a number of other subjects
1) we no longer use any subcontractors-everything is done "in house"
2) I trot out my FHB articles at every opportunity( who wouldn't prefer to do business with a "published expert",LOL rather than johnnie tarbucket jackleg roofer
3) we work one project at a time-and only one at a time
4) all employees are covered by workers comp. and liability insurance-and we prove it up front
5) our customers have typically small lots-- we don't block them out of their own driveways,garages or damage their lawns-we remove ALL debris from the jobsite every day via dump truck/dump trailer-- we don't park a dumpster on the lawn or in the driveway at night---what ever debris we generate--we remove that same day
6) most of our customers have pretty wide overhangs on their roofs---a 3 ft. strip of icegaurd at the gutters edge probably won't reach a point 2 ft. inside the exterior wall----so we will be running SIX feet of icegaurd at the bottom of all roofs( this is DOUBLE what virtually all "competitors "do
7) I personally work on EVERY project we do--from the roof top
8)-and so on,and so on and so on hand nailing will fit in very nicely with all of this and I will confidently leave gun nailing to the " faster and lower priced" guysIn order to do this--- I need a specific number of roofs--- below that number--- it's not as feasible---ABOVE that number and we will do very VERY well.
stephen
again--- all your arguments in favor of the gun--come down to the attribute of speed. you never really make a case for the gun doing a better job-- only a faster job
Here we go, gun nailing is just as good as hand nailing in my eyes. The quality on a hand nailing and a gun nailing is the same.
If you think hand nailing is better, that's fine. I always said gun nailing is faster. I guess I never mentioned that gun nailing is just as good as hand nailing, so therefor I'm not selling speed because I believe that gun nailing and hand nailing gives the same result as far as quality.
So, we are selling the same thing which is quality.
Joe Carola
Again Framer---- there are quite a few instances===particularly in old house work when gun nailing demonstrably IS NOT just as good temp. ranges come into play---and substrate( decking) issues come into play
exposed bead board overhangs,
short pieces of 1x decking around chimneys,valleys, soffits etc-all can be affected by gun nailing
and on and on and on so just saying-- it's just as good--- doesn't make it so. out of curiousity---- do you think I would intentionally move towards such a technique---- that on the surface seems so comparitively impractical if I hadn't thought it through long and hard and seen conclusively that their were quality issues AND profitability issues in moving in that direction?
stephen
When you start 6 nailing it changes a lot. Thats 30% more nails. The idiot with the tool makes a lot more difference than the method. Roofed for 15 years, thats all I did. Hand nail can be better, but the difference is the holder of tool.
actually--- it's 50% more nails, LOL but I have seen your point early on. Ironically--- the reason I started insisting on 6 nailing by gun several years ago was that although I could absolutely depend upon myself to put the nails exactly where i wanted them-- I have no such assurance with employees or subcontractors.
with moderate and continuous hassle I CAN get them to 6 nail and increase the holding ability--- but it has proved impossible to get them to 4 nail by gun properly. IF we get back to the point where we sell "All Roofs Hand Nailed"--- it is concievable that we will return to 4 nailing--since they will be properly laid---and we might up charge for 6 nails for that higher wind rating-- that remains to be seen. I have already hired a young guy who will be starting full time in a few weeks specifically to be trained to hand nail--and concievably in about 2 years we may be entirely there.- who knows 3 years ago I thought I might be just about done with roofing by now---and instead the demand has me in it deeper than ever. Want to know something funny ?- A month or so ago I sent a letter to a local sort of historical society association . I recieved a return letter yesterday asking for a bit more info--------but basically there absolutely IS a market for this sort of thing--a growing niche type of thing among people interested in old houses. I absolutely understand that it sounds kind of crazy--but there ARE people who want it--and will pay for it. seriously- i understand this is in no way comparable--- but i am often suprised there is enough of a demand still in some places in the USA for someone to specialize in copper roofing, or slate roofing---so it's a stretch- but why would this be any different?
Find a demand--and supply it or-create a demand and supply it, LOL
Best wishes,
stephen
Hand nailing is hard on the joints---- but so is gun nailing.Intersting to me- what elbow troubles I have I attribute to gun nailing-- specifically one new gun I tried out on one specific roof( I still drive past the roof almost every day) I was used to those old,heavy Bostich roofing nailers---- bought a Paslode----which seemed lighter-better balanced---- something. I was using it on a roof----and since the gun felt so much lighter- I was using it farther away from my body--at the full extent of my reach-sideways,overhead etc.---- and right there is when the elbow troubles started.
this was maybe 8-10 years ago-- and I worked in an elbow brace for the next 6 years or so( in fact I had to go out and buy a brace to finish that job.what got the elbow better was---time, consciously working in better ergonomics-----, going back to a heavier gun to keep the gun closer to my body-----and also going back to more hand nailing( switching back and forth periodically through out the day) when I have employees I try to keep the crew size small. I own 3 roofing guns--so we will use maybe 3 installers and a laborer or two as our usual max.---- one of our last full roofs last year---- 4 of us needed to nail--- only 3 guns.--- chris and I took one side of a 4/12, brian and john took the other. I was hand nailing and chris had a gun-- the two of us beat the other two guns----and neither of us was pushing particularly hard. At my age-- I wouldn't want to do it every day--and I certainley wouldn't want to do it with a steel handle--- but it can be done.BTW-- in the interest of full disclosure-- I am not considered a fast hand nailer---- but john was definitely considered a very slow gun nailer,LOL
stephen
Hijack here. But I didn't feel like getting my own thread for this....lol
Do you overhang the shingle past the gutter apron on the eave? If you do, why ? Can you think of any manufacturer for whom this is a warranty issue if not done ? Naive but refreshing !
woody,
I am not sure what you are referring to by "gutter apron"---and also not entirely sure if we would be referring to the same aspect as" Eave" Let's instead refer to Drip Edge--and we assume that the drip edge is both at the bottome edge of the roof( at the gutter) AND that it runs up the rake. shingle manufactures warranty is irrelevant here---- it has nothing to do with anything.
YES- we extend the shingle 3/4 inch past the drip edge. I actually don't want the water flow to ever actually touch the drip edge if possible---- but we do this for 2 primary reasons1)-- we work on old houses-- I fully expect there to be a banannna in the rake board----and a pretty good bow along the lower edge. If i install the drip flush with the bottom board--and install my shingles to follow that drip edge- I am just installing a big curve into my shingle courses-- however I can make a mark allowing a 3/4 " overhang at each end of the roof---snap a line----and now project straight courses all the way up--- think of it as the purpose of a "reveal" in a lot of trim carpentry--- to hide irregualrities2) I want the water to fall into the gutter. If I keep the bottom edge of the first course of shingles flush with the drip edge----- in many weather patterns water will cling to the drip edge,wrap around,and drip down behind the gutter and on the fascia--- I have found this many,many times. this will be exagerated on older house that have a bend in the wall------ difficult to get the gutter perfectly flat on the fascia( particularly when installed at $2.25 a lineal ft. by production spouting hangers) so- that slight overhang serves real purposes that have zip to do with the shingle warranty.
stephen
hope that helped.
Thanks Stephen, good info.Naive but refreshing !
I taught homebuilding for a while to H.S. kids. We had our own development and built sizeable efficient homes. I never considered using nail guns for anything other then interior trim. Kids can be risky and some of them would/could intentionally fire guns in ways not intended. But the real reason is that I felt that everyone needs to develop nailing skills somewhere along the line. Nailing can't really be taught, at least not much. You need to spend time hammering to get it down. When that nail starts to bend and you know that it need to be hit on one side to straighten it is a learned thing. I'm curious how many of you builders have guys/girls who can't hand nail. Not that it seems to matter as I do realize that to make a living you need to work with guns.
A side story.... We bought a house a few years ago. I'm now finally doing the upstairs. Had to put in 4-5 walls doorways etc so I could wire. My Paslode, unused for 2 years was not working so I got out my box of 16's and my favorite 30 year old hammer. Really enjoyed it. Sheetrockers and Plumbers showed and my hammer dissappeared. I'm grieving!! When you've loved like that nothing else is the same. I know I could buy one off the rack that would be better,but that was part of me. Anyone have a Plumb, 30 years old 20 oz. straight claw.... they were the first generation of fibergalss handle. What a tool.
I bought a new Plumb this summer. Didn't realize it at the time, but made in China.How disappointing is that? The head is already loose.John
My Plumb is Plumb worn out so I put a newhandle in my older Vaughn, but I stopped to pick up a few hammers on the rack to feel balance and such. I threw the new Plumbs right back again - not what they used to be. Didn't feel right at all!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
frost,
I sympathise with you on the loss of that Plumb hammer I broke a similar vintage one a couple years ago--- and haven't been able to duplicate it.
mine was probably closer to 25 years old--and the best feature was that the striking face was convex--which let me hit things square from a great variety of angles every hammer I try now- the striking face is ground perfectly flat--which disapoints me I DO notice that my ESTWING roofing hatchets continue to be made with the convex face though-- but the hammer faces are ground flat. I did by a similar vaughn fiberglass handled hammer a year or so ago that I like OK---- but even it- the face is flat
stephen
Thats a real piss off when somebody steals your stuff. I had never heard of a plumb hammer before. YOu will have to just break in a new one, eventually it will be loved too.
Have a good day
CLiffy
My roofers hand nail. I can't necessarily say it is any slower (or faster) than air nailing. I'm certain they would air nail if they felt they could make any more money that way. I've never built a house that they couldn't do in a day. That's a major plus for me. Makes scheduling easier. Of course I don't build very big houses. They usually have around 8 guys on a crew.
My vinyl siders hand nail too - although they use guns for stuff like fill in framing, etc. Again, I'm sure they would use guns if it would help them. Cement board gets air nailed.
Concrete guys still hand nail. I always wondered why they don't have Passloades but I'm sure it's just a money thing - they don't make that much...
Sheetrock guys hand nail the taped edges just to hang the sheets and then go back over it with screw guns.
Other than that I don't see much of any hand nailing. Even some of the plumbers carny guns these days.
Hardwood floor guys use those air actuated nailers that you hit with a mallet.
As far as actual carpentry, it's air all the way. I'm not sure I'd hire framers or trim guys who hand nailed. Regarding framing, time is money (construction loan interest) and with trim - it just works better. One thread here where a guy has been framing for 2 months. After about a week I start getting antsy.
I know a remodeler guy who does all hand nailing. I've asked him about it and he says that he would need 6 different guns and hates dealing with hoses and all. He does a lot of kitchens and bathrooms, etc. Not really what you would call production work.
back before my back started to work like a rusty hinge, I could keep up with 2 young, dumb, full of come guys with nail-guns.
and my work could be left together so I could fix their shid (dispairo actually gave me the banned version of this word as a choice under spell check!! can we ban them???)
now days I use guns...
older budwieser...
.
.
"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion"
-Neil deGrasse Tyson
.
.
.
If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
.
.
.
according to statistical analysis, "for some time now, bears apparently have been going to the bathroom in the woods."
When I first started out, I nailed my hand regularly, too. But if you keep practicing, you'll get good enough to drive nails without injurying yourself.
sure, hand nailing is still alive, I shot myself in the hand with my framing nailer twice
If there are few folks driving nails by hand -- then why are hammer makers able to sell $200 titanium hammers ??
i have no clue. but i never would buy one.my estwing does fine.
Nice one!
Have a good day
Cliffy