I swear I’m going to vomit if a work on/see another home where:
1) Granite countertops–split-jamb, hollow-core, pre-hung doors.
2) Huge whirlpool tub–40-gallon hot water heater; 1/2″ valve on the tub.
3) Patterned exotic species hardwood floors–staircase with hardwood “caps” at the ends of “construction-use” steps with newels attached with a couple of drywall screws and
“hidden” with button plugs.
4) Custom cabinets made from open grained wood–“finished” with spray lacquer; beautiful looking drawers until you see that they are actually “shrinkwrapped” stapled boxes.
5) Elaborate, custom moldings–mitered at inside corners.
6) Marble powder rooms and entry halls–applied directly on plywood.
7) Elaborate patterns in synthetic stucco–backpitched and collecting water/mildew/dirt.
8) Huge foyer with a “bell tower” ceiling–adjacent dining room 8′ ceiling and decidedly cramped when furnished.
9) Irrigation system for lawn an acre or more–5/8″ water meter, 3/4″ backflow.
10) Whole house automation/lighting/entertainment systems–so crammed with proprietary components that I can only think “Microsoft”.
11) Forced air zoning systems–“waste” heat/cool dump in the basement.
12) Multi-gable roofs–gables “dead-ending” on vertical walls, so many valleys I loose count, attics so large and high I’m reminded of the Biltmore dining room, re-roofing bill enough to buy a little bungalow fixer-upper.
Have the home buying public (and builders and architects) become so enamoured with glitz and show that they have completely forgotten quality craftmanship, materials and mechanicals?
Is it “keeping up with Dr. Jones” run completely amok?
Are these types of practices as common as I fear?
Edited 1/28/2003 2:56:23 PM ET by MTINSEMO
Replies
"Have the home buying public become so enamoured with glitz and show that they have completely forgotten quality craftmanship, materials and mechanicals?"
What, you just now noticed?
McDonalds - when you don't have time for nutrition.
Have been noticing (and complaining privately) about it for quite some time.
The optimist in me said, "they'll learn their lesson quick." Judging by the absurd repairs having to be made to these new multi-gable monstrosities, I thought that I couldn't be wrong. Some of the first weren't too bad, but once everyone thought they had to have the "look" even the supposed custom homes turned to polished cowpiles.
Hah! They're getting bigger--and, if possible, even shoddier. The biggest speculative builder in town continues to churn out and sell homes in the 250k range that routinely require another 100k or more by the 2nd owner after the 1st leaves in disgust after a few short years. I refer workers with little pride and even less talent (or is it less pride than talent) to him ...it's a good marriage. At least two have claimed disability and I only wish that workman's comp insurance gets so high for him that he goes bankrupt (again) and returns to Florida (again).
Edited 1/28/2003 3:54:33 PM ET by MTINSEMO
Go back and look for my post from a few days back titled Interesting Read.
You should see the crap there building around here for 4 to 600k and people are lined up. LOTS of gables mostly fake!
Eric
boy I hear you. We're in the golden age of arrogance, ego and stupidity. Most of the new homes are monuments to the American ego and it stinks. Less is more, and understated is elegant and wise.
My wife drools when she sees ganite tops. I cringe. She spent 750 bucks for a dumb you know what set of plans with more roof angles, pitches, wrap around porces, screen rooms, and a kitchen that still needed an 8 foot enlargement.
After they came in the mail, I studied them and then told her: "I quit" you hire a builder, work with the builder, determine the materials and finance the dang thing." That got her attention un a hurry.
We are now building a simple cape with a gambrel roof that is still to me a luxury but it does have it's advantages.
I told her, you know what? I gave you my preferences, you considdered them but went ahead and ordered a house plan 180 degrees to what we can afford and what fits our road and lifestyle. That could have ben a woodsplitter, building permit, or well pump.
I then told her, get out of the way, I'll do what I can to get you what you want, but I've seen enough.
tom
"Are these types of practices as common as I fear?"
Yup...
Around here (eastern KS), I am sick and tired of houses that start life with a "Nose Job." ie. nice materials on the street side only.
The trend is $300,000+ houses with three sides covered in SmartPanel siding.
I have looked at dozens of decks and horizontal trim on these houses, and I have yet to find one that had flashing where it met the siding.
Any bets on how long that OSB siding will hold up after the grooves will up with yard litter, and hold water between the ledger and the siding?
More for your list:
Beautiful solid-wood custom cabinets and butcher block counters... with nonadjustable particle board shelves and every corner featuring a blind cabinet?
12/12 roofs with as many as 4 complicated dormers, and NO finished space inside, not even storage trusses. The view from the street is the underside of the roof.
K
Edited 1/28/2003 2:17:55 PM ET by Ken-One-Putt
How about marble or granite countertops - with drop-in sinks.
Huge Kitchen islands with custom cabinets and marble countertop - no electrical outlets.
Entertainment/ family room with the plasma screen TV, surround sound and lots of lights - with six dimmer switches on one wall.
Two new bathrooms, back to back, gut renovation - single set of shut-off valves, in basement.
Edited 1/28/2003 2:43:18 PM ET by Frankie
I happen to like drop in sinks, and most likely would use one even if I could afford granite. But it would be a really, really nice cast-iron sink.
But stuff like no outlets on aircraft-carrier-sized islands, fixed shelves in custom cabinets, and badly planned lighting controls make a house hard to live in.
Of course, a whole lot of people who have trophy kitchens don't cook in them anyway. When my kitchen is finally finished, it might have crappy KD boxes, (or not), and it almost certainly will have mostly laminate counters.
But it is ByGod going to take advantage of every opportunity to eliminate bending, stretching, and crawling to get at stuff in the base cabinets.
I''ve spent the last couple of years repairing the damage to siding done to my house by folks who added windows and doors into T-1-11 walls without flashing. So it pains me to see so many of these new houses with grooved OSB replicating the mistake.
K
I don't want to beat a dead horse but one of the advantages of a monolithic countertop - for those of us who do cook - is being able to wipe everything into the sink without the hurdle of the drop-in's lip. It's a one swipe deal. No shmutz left behind to clean off. Once you experience this small thing you might think different..... Maybe not.
Yeah, even I think it's an appealing concept. Except that I realy like the look of that thick lip of an old cast-iron sink.
I deal with the smutz issue in my current kitchen by having a section of butcher block that includes a 4x10-inch hole with a trash can under it. I made the hole with a couple of 4-inch holes, connected by jigsawing. Then I ran a roundover bit around the hole to smooth the edge.
I doo all my chopping, etc. on the part of the counter, and just sweep the leftovers into the trash. I couldn't live without it, and I suspect that if I ever had a nice undermount sink, I'd feel the same way.
Perhaps my prejudice is that I see so many where there's a groove under the counter where "stuff" can collect. The nice ones I've seen are all in solid-surface, is there a way to get the solid-surface look in stone?
K-
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"The average player must be allowed to theorize to some extent. It is a necessary concession to him as a thinking animal… On the other hand, if he does not recognize hitting the ball as his main business, and theory as a recreation, he becomes so bad a player that he nearly gives up." Sir Walter Simpson, The Art of Golf
I tried to find the smooth seamless look for undermount sinks and granite...and came up empty. I like the seamless look...that's why I went with solid surface.
Seems like some kind of epoxy could be used to make the seamless look...but I didn't find it. Might be out there though...
Couldn't agree more about the houses...I am rather convinced it is the keeping up with the jones' thing. Just like having the 4WD Lexus parked in the garage where it never drops below 40.
You might try Vermont Soapstone. They fabricate some really nice things--completely to spec.
About 1/2 the cost of SIMPLE solid surface, absolutely impervious to heat/chemicals and with a natural beauty that can't be matched in man-made materials.
Soapstone is amazingly easy to work and sinks literally last centuries. It is naturally bacterioseptic (won't support the growth of bacteria).
Only relatively short pieces available from the US--somewhat longer pieces from Brazil.
(Don't blame me for the TERRIBLE phone jack location please!)
You have just described 99% of the houses in Northern NJ, except for the trim, I have only seen one new house with any trim at all. There is one really well-made little house near me finished about two years ago. Oh, and a contractor built it for himself....that's not a mistake, it's rustic
Jeff,
Where neighbors. I live in Caldwell. Nice to here someone else from NJ around. We've probably seen eachother at the Dunkin' Donuts on Bloomfield Ave in Calwell befor.
Did you grow up in Verona?
Joe Carola
Framer,
I grew up in Manhattan of all places. We moved to a rental in Montclair where my wife went to school. She figured it was a good place to work me into the suburbs gently. While many of my friends still can't believe I moved to NJ, my commute is almost half as long as my first solo apartment in Brooklyn.
When I realized they weren't giving away houses on Upper Mountain Avenue to people that promised to fix 'em up, we ended up buying in Verona. I'm in the Afterglow area which means Montclair is literally the next block, except my taxes are half of what a similar house in Montclair would be. Unfortunately in Essex County half of Crazy is still a lot.
I love the area, although I wish Bloomfield Avenue had that "Main Street" feel that it has in Caldwell and points west....that's not a mistake, it's rustic
All these Jersey guys.... wow. Woodbridge here.
Regarding the post, I built so-called "custom" homes in Las Vegas for about 5 years. They ranged from 4,000-10,000 SF, and were loaded with the type of crap features you all discussed. One I'd like to add from those days is $25/Sf marble on the master bathroom walls set on greenboard with mastic. I had a friend who bought one of those houses, and about 2 years later, he leaned against the wall in the shower and fell through it! I guess it's true what they say about greenboard only being moisture "resistant"......
Not to fear though, guys. The construction defect attorneys have dug their claws into Vegas after sapping California dry and wrecking their insurance rates, so it won't be long til Vegas either gets hammered or wises up. Just pray the CD attorneys don't come our way- they get rich while destroying the whole industry. But then again, maybe that's what's needed around here to straighten out some of the pathetic construction standards.
BTW- if anyone's really interested in getting away from the "McMansion" syndrome, check out the "Not So Big House" series of books by Sarah Susanka. Great detailing, and a ton of ideas on getting better use out of less space.
Bob
smooth seamless look
I've undermounted sinks - they're epoxied to the underside of the granite. Also had the stone mason cut a drainage board into the granite so spills flow back to the sink just like they do with full cover stainless ones. The mason used a CNC machine and diamond cutters to shape the granite.
You can certainly glue granite together. That's how lots of granite companies do the 4 cm. thick bullnose edges on 2 cm. counter tops. It might just be so laborious to machine and glue a granite sink that no one wants to pay for it.
Another approach, which also no one wants to pay for, is to start with a big block of granite and chop out everything that doesn't look like a sink and drainboards. You could get integral granite backsplashes this way too.
everything said above, plus,..... the house was built on a vacant lot in a neighborhood of 3br ranch homes.
My favorite is neo traditional houses on super small lots (6 foot side yards) selling for $350-$400k, that have wood siding that has cracks and knots in it when installed.
As an extra measure the wood flooring on the entrance porch is nailed in place with a mix of 80% non galv and 20% galv fastners.
really rusty looking after about 6 months.
One selling for $389,000 had a free standing stove ( $450 at Sears?) .
Ken where in eastern ks?
The houses I was talking about were mostly in Lawrence, but I live in Topeka.
K-
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"The average player must be allowed to theorize to some extent. It is a necessary concession to him as a thinking animal… On the other hand, if he does not recognize hitting the ball as his main business, and theory as a recreation, he becomes so bad a player that he nearly gives up." Sir Walter Simpson, The Art of Golf
Ken,
Im a student at KU in lawrence work a remodeling company here in the mornings, We have done several renovations and fixes to new homes (last 5 years or so) around the area in the past which werent built up to what you would expect for the money people are paying
"12/12 roofs with as many as 4 complicated dormers, and NO finished space inside, not even storage trusses. The view from the street is the underside of the roof."
And to remember that they used to roof a "flat" section to keep the place from looking top-heavy...
You dont happen to live in houston do you?
My parents purchased a home there about 8 months ago, It "looks" good at first glance, but if you start looking at the details its horrid
Trim miters are all off by a degree or 2 filled with caulk
Granite tops sub zero and viking with standard cabinets and a laminate wood floor
During the contruction I was down to visit them a few times, and saw numerous errors the builder was reluctant to fix, no secondary access to a garage with only an electric door opener, so what happens if the door opener breaks when its closed
Builders responce, well you could always break a window
After looking at the plans he realized it was his error
No lights outside the front door because they forgot to put them in before drywall and stucco, so they said it was an "add" at first
all the counter tops where drilled for 4 in center faucets when 8" were spec'd
doors opened the wrong way, and I dont mean wrong way per plan I mean wrong way as in you couldnt open the door fully the way it was.
sub floor up stairs looked like ocean waves at first as did a number of walls
some wall were as much as 2 in out of plumb over the 10' height
I was there when the "tile setter" was doing a shower, doing this in complete darkness no work light and using his huge wet saw right over the sub floor soaking it real good
Theres enough caulk in this home to keep dap in buisness for years
I could go on and on but you get the idea, fortunetly for them they are moving to boston soon and the house has actually appreciated some and they can get out before it falls down. You could right a book from all the stuff they did that you shouldnt do
Cag,
Was that a PULTE home by any chance?
Eric
I couldnt tell you the name of the builder, I could find out if your really interested
If your familar with the area, it was in Royal Oaks subdivision.
The lead guy on the job, who I talked to several times admitted they have to many homes going up and not enough qualified labor, so everyone was doing everything regaurdless if they had experience etc.
Southeast Missouri
My house turns 100 this year, and I turn 40. If I ever get it done, suspect it will easily live another 100 as it is cypress, oak and old-growth yellow pine. Have corrected structural problems caused by previous plumbers. Yes, one interior bedroom wall upstairs has a bowed stud, and there are certainly some floor humps and sags, but it's perfectly square, uncannily plumb and mechanicals installed to last a very long time and with exceptional service access when problems occur.
Have renovated a number of homes for others and still enjoy custom built-ins, cabinetry, even GOOD painting for others. Do other work as well so can be very choosy about the jobs I take.
Great grandpa was an old-time finish carpenter who taught me how to cope, mortise, "read" a board, etc., etc., and while certainly appreciate modern power tools, still find the old way better in many circumstance.
"The only thing I'll ever settle into will be my urn." Mike Thies
having been a summer framing grunt and heard "it anit a piano, just nail it" one to many times, I think I'll stick with my 100 year old house - once I get past what the previous owners have done - kudos to the original builders. If there ever is a next house, I'll look for a 100 years old one again. new homes are crap!! -- sorry I know the folks here don't build new stuff - they make quaility reproductions of the past, with new stuff.
Everyone picking up a hammer should be required to read (oops, problem there for some, I think) The Not So Big House by Sarah Susankah. Hell, the people who buy these monstrosities too! Oops, wait ... forgot the realtors, who share some guilt here.
I LOVE Susanka's books, but you know what the trouble is?
The people who need to read them only hear, "You'll be getting a smaller house."
And then they stop listening.
Fortunately, it's their loss.
K-
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"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read." -- Groucho Marx
Speaking as a recovering homebuyer, I thought about getting and reading that book, but when I realized that the house she was describing was around 2400 sqft, that doesn't seem so little either (bigger than my house, anyway). The other thing that puts people off is that some of the features she describes are very expensive to implement. They must be, there was a guy on BT a while ago who actually built the house and I think it cost him upwards of 400K. So not only are they getting less space, but they are getting it at a premium price. How about designing a true 'not so big' house that has architectural interest, efficient use of space, and uses standard sizes or prebuilt (dare I say modular) materials where possible to make building it more cost effective? And, drawing from another article in FH by Ms. Susankah, make it available to the masses. It is ironic to me that many of the same people who denigrate the plans available for sale through magazines and such hold up early 20th centry Craftsman homes as being wonderful. Many of these homes were 'kit' homes, and many others were built from plans available from guess what? A magazine. Middle class folks building homes today are basically faced with the choice of buying a crummy plan and then trying to make it work, or buying from a developer and having the same house as 80,000 other homes in the area. And for most average consumers home quality is like pornography. We aren't sure about what details define it, we just know it when we see it. So, when we look at that home with mitered molding instead of coped, we know it doesn't look quite as good, but we're just not sure why.
I agree with some of your points. And she says right up front that "not so big" and "cheap" don't necessarily fall hand in hand. But the original comment in the thread wasn't about cost; it was about overblown, shoddily constructed monstrosities. Further, 2400 sq. ft. seems to a whole lot "not so big" when placed nest to 6000 sq, ft. of empty, overdressed volume. The point is, if you're gonna build, and if you're gonna spend the $$$, put into something thoughtful that serves the purpose, and is not so much a staement of "mine is bigger than yours."
What you describe "taking a good plan and building just the basics" has been going on forever.
Very few of the homes modeled after plans in "The Craftsman" magazine featured all of the built-ins and especially fine materials specified.
One of my favorite home books (you see the cover on the photo I posted above) is a reprint of a Gordon Van Tyne kit home catalog.
The material specifications literally make me drool. While I've found very few of these actual homes around here, I've literally hundreds that are near perfect copies--many/most (I believe) were speculation homes.
While short on bathrooms and a kitchen that is often too small (once a 1st floor bath was added at least) these homes are surprisingly useful to this day.
My experience working on older homes and comparing them to new ones is what really gets me going. In an old home, the quality of the finish material was a very good indicator of the quality of general construction underneath and the quality of the mechanical systems.
I too have a definite budget but it truly distresses me to work on/see homes where $100,000+ has been spent for fancy upgrades but the craftsmanship/mechanicals/general materials belong in a small speculation home.
"I thought about getting and reading that book, but when I realized that the house she (Susanka) was describing was around 2400 sqft, that doesn't seem so little either."
You are correct, but it's too bad you didn't get the book, anyway. It does use several specific houses as an examples, including one she had built for herself. And some of the details are costly.
But it's not about A house, or even the few houses she uses as examples. It's really about a way of thinking. She believes, FWIW, that people aren't given the right tools to make decisions about their homes.
One of the key points in the book is that we all face a triangular dilemma in our house buying or building decisions. The sides are cost, square feet, and quality.
AND... she defines quality in two ways. It is the quality of materials and craftsmanship, but it is also the quality of the spaces--how they "feel."
Her main point is that most Americans have a limit on how much they can spend, and they think there is some minimum square footage that is acceptable. This usually means losing quality.
If the buyer can envision a house that's "not so big," they can afford to get some of the quality back, and enjoy the house more.
In "Creating the Not-so-Big House," she gives even more examples of the ways a homeowner can get a better house, if they are willing to reevaluate their space needs.
In the original book, she outlines ways of documenting the use of your current living space to see what is actually important. One example showed a family that kept a diary and found that the most-used room in their house was an attic that had been converted to a TV room. Their new house IIRC, was focused on the family room.
The spaces she most often mentions as expendable are formal dining rooms, and extra bathrooms.
She's also shows ways to save money on the "envelope" leaving more cash for quality touches inside. One of which is applicable in this thread. She notes that a rectangular box with a hip roof offers lots of space, an easy-to-shingle roof, and a simple-to-frame container.
As she points out, we live INSIDE our houses, the exterior ostentation is to impress others. If that's more important to a buyer than a comfortable, inviting interior, fine. But too many homebuyers don't even realize that's the choice they are making.
K
OK, Ken and MTINSEMO, you've convinced me. I will take another look at her book. Thanks for all of the insights!
I too haven't read her book.
But, I've always wondered how many people even realize how much the fancy roof structure they're buying costs. I've talked to people who bemoan how they had to drop this and that feature that they really wanted to keep the cost down. But probably had no clue that a simple straight roofline may have saved them thousands that could have been used for other things.
Few people really understand what the different parts of a house cost them. And I doubt most of them are ever told.
I suggested to a coworker that he put a simpler roof on a house they were having built here. His wife was sold on the look and wouldn't consider it. But, he'd never thought of it, and seemed to favor the idea. Never thought to suggest putting in some storage trusses. Seems like you'd get a big bang for the buck doing so.
Lighten up! It's not that bad ! live & let live- everybody has their own tastes & budgets (especially budgets)
Good futures in remodeling if want for quality ever comes back into the public's taste
I build subdivisions, so my bitches on the subject would probably not get people's blood flowing. But good builders and the ones you're talking about (the production guys also tend to be developers) cut corners on the sitework and underground utilities. To a degree they're held to municipal standards.
One builder here, who I do not work with, runs radio ads constantly "more square feet, less money" in a celebrity voice. Their editions are huge rectangular homes, they're moving away from the crazy gable dormers jutting out everywhere due to the expense, and because land development is so expensive - and their houses so big - these things sit the minimum setback from each other, 20'. They've done a subdivision where the plane of the backs of the houses are all in a line (the building pads are laid in like airplane runways because it's most efficient that way) and face the road, Each backside of the house is huge expanse of vinyl and continues all the way down the road. Ugly.
remodeler
Have the home buying public (and builders and architects) become so enamoured with glitz and show that they have completely forgotten quality craftmanship, materials and mechanicals?
Yup.
Welcome to the real world.
Interested in a case-lot price on Gravol? Valium?
A heck of a reflection on standards and values, as if to say what counts is making that first "sight-bite" as impressive as possible, and t'ellwiv what's inside or at the backdoor.
Doc - The Old Cynic
MT, "12) Multi-gable roofs--gables "dead-ending" on vertical walls, so many valleys I loose count, attics so large and high I'm reminded of the Biltmore dining room, re-roofing bill enough to buy a little bungalow fixer-upper."
Or as I've always said, "More angles than a gang of con artists."
And as CAG said later, "You don't happen to live in Houston, do you?" or something like that. Well-- that is Houston style-- brassy, flashy, and trashy. All the sophistication of a $5 tart with torn knickers, and a dribble of snot on her upper lip.
There was even a locally based millionare that has made a whack of money out of nothing much rumoured to have asked a friend of mine-- he's one of only two friends that I have, Houston being a not too sociable place to live-- if he could do a genuine thatched roof-- Norfolk reeds--- fly the guys over from England-- all expenses paid, blah, blah. Real thatch mind you-- not any kind of plastic imitation spray on stuff. He (the friend) couldn't believe it, and nor could I when I heard it, but it seems the man was in earnest.
Can anyone imagine the problems you'd have with a real thatched roof on a Neo-Georgian-Country-Cotswold-Tudor-Castle-French-Chateau-Scottish-Baronial pile in Houston? That just about describes what was built, as I understand it,--------- but I could be wrong, ha, ha,---- and I might just be stretching the truth a bit...... and sort of inventing stories. Slainte.
Website The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh
Edited 1/30/2003 2:45:00 AM ET by RichardJ
It's the AutoCAD curse.
Any idiot (not saying that Boss and other regulars are) can draw anything they like, dimension it, get a bill of materials and then pay to get it built.
Taste is something that archeticts used to learn as they learnt to draw - now you just call up the drawing library select the room you want and plonk it down. Rather like a poor identikit photo - eyes are the right colour but out of proportion with the nose - looks like a house but not any real home.