I recently inherited my Dads house and am embarking on repairing all the neglected mechanicals for the past 30+ years. I’ve been tearing out all the old galvanized piping and am anticipating replacing it with copper.
CPVC is approved for supply lines in our area but the thought of putting plastic plumbing in gives me the shakes. I don’t have a problem with PVC waste lines but supply lines look cheap to me.
Can anyone out there give me the Pros & Cons of CPVC? I guess I’m looking more for the Cons. I want to justify the expense of copper in my own mind.
Thanks
Replies
I'm not a plumber, but I get the same shakes from the thought of PVC supply lines.
You might also look into PEX and see if it is allowable for pw in your area. PEX is easier to install than copper, less prone to freeze damage, and less prone to erosion. The down sides of PEX is that it can't be left exposed to sunlight, and it is conceivable that a mouse could chew through it.
But I think copper or PEX are the two better choices.
jt8
"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools." -- Herbert Spencer
Years ago I aquired a house in the same shape. With my dad being a plumber I knew he would turn over in his grave if I ran plastic for supply. I cut out all the gal. pipe and ran plastic as a temp. supply, we were living in the hose at the time. Then ran copper, nothing prettier than copper ran nice and straight with clean joints, as time permitted. At the time the whole set up for plastic was under $100., and we had some water pressure. Wouldn't keep plastic as a long term supply. Check out the PEX system, has a lot of merit.
CPVC was here when I bought the place, tried to salvage some broken sections from a freeze up..tried for about a minute before I ripped it all out and started with new copper...you soon see why, if you play with CPVC at all.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
As long as CVPC is soft strapped and supported well it works.
Its cheaper than copper and installation is also cheaper but I do think copper is better of course. The fittings however are higher than copper.
Tim
How much does PVC pipe cost these days? I'm not a plumber but I know the price of PVC electrical conduit has gone up dramatically this year. I imagine the same thing has happened to PVC water pipe as well, which may influence your decision.
At least around here, WNC, you can bring water in to the house with pvc but only a short distance. CPVC is approved for both hot and cold. Copper gets eaten up by the acidic water if on a well. It seems even more so if pipe is bonded to elect. system.
I have been a believer in cpvc but I just did some work where I took out some old galv. and there was a cpvc dogleg to the water heater that snapped off from the recip saw vibrations. I wish pex had been available when I built. Fortunately most of my cpvc is and will remain accessable.
Last week: 1 1/2 " pvc sch 40 $.52/' ; 1/2 " cpvc $.29/'
Edited 1/17/2006 1:17 pm ET by rasconc
Copper has also gone up dramatically.
I use cpvc because our water is from a well and copper doesn't last long here. The heavy duty copper, don't recall the letter designation lasts about 15 years with our water. For me the cpvc is better.
mike
Mike,
Appreciate the comments. Out of curiousity where do you live? Living here in Wisconsin I never heard of acidic content so high it eats the copper. I too have a well and our biggest problem is "Black iron" not your normal red iron that can be filtered out with a softner but black iron oxide that turns to rock after a number of years in your system. The biggest problem is it stinks to high heaven.............worse then rotten eggs. Its very expensive to filter it out so most people cover it up with chlorinating their wells every six months. The anode rods in water heaters only enhance the smell so I remove it whenever I buy a new one. Yes I know this invalidates the warranty but its better then having your water smell like an outhouse.
After 30 years in our house I removed a 3/4 inch copper cold water line to the kitchen (55 foot long run) and replaced it with 1" PVC. On well water (soft, Seattle area) with no chlorination and wife complained of 'green tint' to the cold water going into the coffey machine. Backflushed the copper once and also flushed about 15 years ago with ferric chloride also, but figured on a permanent fix vs. trying to flush again.
Hot water pipes remain copper, as do all other lines except that one to the kitchen. Also, the PVC in attache to the bottom of the basement joists with wooden clamps, concrete floor under, so not worried about breakage.
I live in Mays Landing NJ, lot of iron in the well water . Not sure if iron has anything to do with copper not lasting a long time, between the iron and other mineral content ,copper is not the best choice for me.
mike
OK it's only an opinion but it is MY opinion.
Copper & Wirsbo are the only water lines that I will allow in my house.
I have installed pretty much everything under the sun when it comes to water lines----Except lead----- I aint that old.
I have done highrise residential units 15 to 45 story ones , we used to do copper mains & cpvc branches---- that pretty much sucked and was the case for alot of call backs.
We still do copper mains (am looking into sch10 stainless steel though) But our branches are now Wirsbo ---- it aint very pretty but can't beat the install time & material cost.
I live in Wisconsin and am not familiar with Wisbro...........what is it?
Wirsbo is a company that makes Pex tubing. They're based in Apple Valley, Minnesota. http://www.wirsbo.com
Just to clarify: CPVC pipe and fittings are approved for both hot and cold water in some jurisdictions. Plain PVC is not approved for hot water use. Be careful, because both materials are available and they are NOT the same. CPVC is chlorinated PVC. The chlorination gives the CPVC material a higher service temperature rating than plain PVC.
good point, and the fittings are not interchangable. And to add as well, the ID of cpvc and Cu are not the same, so a 1/2 supply in cpvc is constricted v. Cu.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Copper used for plumbing is sized by the inside diameter, CPVC is sized by the outside diameter and regular PVC is sized by the inside diameter.
Around here, CPVC is an off white, almost tan color, and regular PVC is white or a dirty white/light grey depending on the manufacturer.
You can't rely on the colour:
CPVC can be tan (for residential plumbing) or light gray (industrial fittings and pipe)
PVC can be white (both DWV and pressure-graded white pipe/fittings are available), light gray (i.e. PVC conduit etc. is almost exactly the same light gray colour as industrial CPVC pipe and fittings) or dark gray (industrial PVC pipe/fittings).
To the other poster's question: Wirsbo PEX a good system for home-run plumbing and is easy to do, but the enormous cost of their expander tool makes it DIY-unfriendly unless you can borrow one. Some plumbing houses rent or loan them out (unfortunately, I don't know of any around here who do).
I didn't know about the industrial stuff. Thanks for the heads up.
As far as the electrical stuff, I knew about that, but didn't want to confuse things. Always best to read what is printed on the pipe :) I guess.
Always learning...
Thanks for the tip on the Wirsbo. I see the hand expander tool runs more than $300. I'll look around at my plumbing supplier to see if they rent out the tool.Both my father and my father-in-law are considering a plumbing redo. If I can convince them to go PEX, maybe we can all eat the price of the tool.
Wirsbo¯ is a brand & pretty much the originator in the field.
I'm not 100% positive I would have to call the purchasing agent, but I think we have put in 45,000 feet of 1/2" Wirsbo on the job I'm on right now.
42 story hotel/condo Bellevue WA.
Is the Wirsbo PEX DIY friendly in your opinion?I've installed both copper and CPVC and am confident in both. I'll be needing to redo the plumbing in this old house of ours soon. Its all undersized CPVC and poorly run, so an upgrade is in order. For a DIYer redoing the plumbing in an old house renovation, which would you recommend.
If you have the tool it's a snap to put in even for the inexpierenced.
My neighbor used the compression fittings instead of the expansion rings----- easy but kinda pricy for those brass fittings.
What I would do is buy the tool do the job , then sell the tool on ebay.
Should be cheaper than renting the tool.
http://www.pexsupply.com/index.cfm/id_product/bdc57f2c-9c84-4c75-89af-4d1ba3aa622e/action/product.show/category_header/1
http://search.ebay.com/wirsbo_W0QQfromZR40
Excellent idea! Thanks.
No cons. Had CPVC put in a couple of houses of my own. Loved it. Installed properly, no problem whatsoever in over 10 years.
Pros: price, repair (ever try soldering copper that still has some water in it?) AND quicker response. Meaning, on a long run, you get hot water quicker. Copper is a very good conductor, so it dissipates heat, whereas PVC is a pretty good insulator. I really hate waiting for the hot water.
Having said that, very few customers choose anything except copper, so CPVC may be perceived as cheaper and may in fact impact resale value.
DG/Builder
I'm no pro, but I hear if you're on public water, the chlorine attacks the plastic, and after a period of years the plastic leaks. I've had to replace old plastic supply tubes that started leaking because of this.
I have a hard time with plastic as waste line because of all the noise. You can hear everything. If you do use it, insulate that area where it is adjacent to living spaces (above or below).
My parents' house was a very early experimental CPVC installation, done in 1971. I've had to make a couple small changes down thru the years, like putting on thread adapters because the CPVC sized compression water stops aren't available. So far, no leaks, no broken pipes. But it sure feels cheap and floppy. I always handle it like it was glass.
That being said, I wouldn't do it again. I'd go with copper in places where the water doesn't eat it, and PEX where it does. The CPVC is an oddball, and that's not good when you want to sell.
-- J.S.