Long story so here goes. Details necessary in order to properly explain the issue.
HO has to switch over to public sewer system which is a grinder pump installed by the town. The grinder pump is installed in the front yard of the home. The HO’s septic tank is at the back of the house. The sewer line that went into the septic tank is CI and it had a 2″ CI vent installed halfway between the toilet and septic tank. All of the plumbing fixtures (Bathroom and Kitchen) are at the immediate back of the house very near the septic tank. However, the ONLY fixtures that drained into the septic tank were the toilet, bath sink and bathtub. The Kitchen sink and the washer room drain were connected to a 3″ drain that ran to the front of the house and merely dumped onto the ground outside the house – it was quite a muck after 40 some years of use.
My job was to connect the homes sewer line to the public sewer stub. However, because the house drain was at the back of the house, the plumbing needed to be redone so as to run a new house drain from the back of the house to the front of the house. The homeowner contracted with someone else to do this rerouting of the plumbing sewer line inside the home so that it stubbed out at the front of the house for me to attach my pipe to that I ran to the sewer pump. In all, in order to reroute the house drain to the front this contractor ran approx 80 feet of 4″ Sch 40 PVC until it terminated at the front foundation wall as a stub for me to attach to. The contractor also routed the kitchen sink and washer drain into this 4″ house drain. The Kitchen sink is downstream of the bathroom drains, the bathroom drains are at the immediate end of the 4″ PVC line.
Also in order to do the rerouting, the CI had to be cut and capped just under the toilet area. This in effect closed off the CI drain permanently, but it also removed the vent that used to be there, that 2″ CI vent. In effect, the entire house no longer has a vent anywhere in its DWV system. When I ran the sewer line I installed a whole house vent within 12″ of the sewer pump, but that vent is strictly for sewer gases, not meant to provide air to the system when something is draining in the home. It’s too far away anyways to be a vent for the fixtures in the house.
So now the problem.
The HO tonight was complaining that when they run the kitchen sink the toilet gurgles and the water in the bowl swells and contracts, swells and contracts, and so forth. Being that the kitchen sink is downstream of the toilet and that the sink drain is 1 1/2 drain I can’t imagine how such a small drain will cause the swelling and contraction of water in the bowl, much less make it gurgle. Also the HO said she’s already had to use a plunger on the toilet and that the water doesn’t seem to go down as fast or with as much force.
So is this a venting issue? What are your thoughts on the matter, I’d like to hear them.
Replies
Needs a vent.
I second the motion, NEEDS A VENT!
"contractor ran approx 80 feet of 4" Sch 40 PVC until it terminated at the front foundation "
I'm not a plumber but that doesn't sound right. In plumbing bigger is not necessarily better - it has something to do with the velocity of the waste water and soil in the pipe. Further I don't really think you said exactly how many baths and fixtures there are, and a plumber would have to actually see the layout to give an accurate assessment of the fixture units and all that but most houses end up with at least 2 vents.
Another thing to think about is that if you touch this other's guys work, you will essentially inherit warranty responsibility, which is fine but you need to charge a significant amount for that, especially simply because of the fact that the house has no vent indicates that contractor 1 didn't know (or maybe care about) exactly what he was doing. If the situation is as messed up as I suspect, I'd guess that most plumbers wouldn't touch this for less than a $grand or 2.
Why don't you show the other guy's work to the town inspector and see if he thinks it needs a vent. Then the other guy can come back and fix his shoddy work and keep you off the hook. Where do these people come from??
Where did this guy come from? Well, it's the son of the father who owned the house. The father moved out and his son sold the house for him to the new owners. Part of the sales agreement was when the time came for them to hook up to the public sewer (which was my part of the job) that the son would open up the floor over the crawlspace and reroute the drain to shoot to the front of the house. The HO said the guy came with good recommendations. On further questioning she said she was told that he had read a lot of books and knew his stuff fromthat. To which I replied books are ok, but not reality, and only reality and true experience are the true teachers.
The floor in the bathroom is pressed sawdust board over a crawlspace that is damp. THe board started to disintegrate. The son said he'd replace the floor and shore it up for $500. The floor had incredible bounce it in. Standing between floor joists your foot sank at least 3/4" no joke. After he did the work and shoring up the floor was 10x more worse than before he touched it. Further, I pointed out to him that the one branch drain that drains the tub and sink was sloped uphill for the last 12" of run before it dumped into the wye. He didn't care, he said the water would push it's way out as more enters the pipe, no big deal. I told him he's setting the HO up for a clog. He never fixed it, just put the new "subfloor" down and believe me it was no better than what was there.
The HO is disappointed. I told her what needed to be done to do it right would've been more than $500 of work to begin with and that she basically got $500 worth of worthless quality work. It ticks me because these people are poor, the house is decrepid to begin with.
I been working with this contractor to try and figure out how to get a vent in. Said I want the inspector to sign off on a plan. He doesn't really care for me doing that. Figures. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Doesn't your state require licensed plumbers to do plumbing work?
Goes by township. Not all townships require licensing. I'm not a licensed plumber and I do plumbing in townships where no license is required.
Any homeowner can hire whoever they want in this state. If the HO doesn't care for an inspection then they get whatever they get, such as in this case. If the HO wants an inspection, then the license requirement will be enforced if in a township where a license is required. In this case, if this township required a license and the HO wanted an inspection, then it'd never pass worth a dime and the guy wouldn't have been allowed to work it. If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
I think you are right that in this case the poor, now knowing what should be required, are being taken advantage of. Be that as it may, don't let this stuff get in the way of your need to make a living. I don't mind helping people out sometimes but reserve that for my spare time, not my 8:00-5:00 M-F time. Further, I know that building codes have not been around in PA for too long. If I'm not mistaken a statewide building code was only adopted within the last 5 years or so. I guess it may take another decade before this stuff gets fully enforced. Further, by the sound of things licensing there in PA might be more to do with paying some fees than actually being qualified.
>>I'm not a licensed plumber and I do plumbing in townships where no license is required
Willie, this is plumbing 101. The need for vents and the way in which they are installed is shown in every code (and there are detail differences between codes). You need to know this if you are doing any DWV.
Of course. I believe if you correctly understood my original post, I believed this to be a venting problem and reasoned that there was no problem previously because there was a vent. I'm just trying to confirm that what happened is indeed related to venting as I suspected, trying to confirm the basics, that's all.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
"Further, I pointed out to him that the one branch drain that drains the tub and sink was sloped uphill for the last 12" of run before it dumped into the wye."I suspect that slope is as much of the problem as lack of venting. While it might not meet code and I have never limited experience I think that with a 4" line that you could probably get by with wet venting via the vent at the tank. My guess is that the 4" line would never run full. But that requires a good and constant slope.You can install air admitance valves for venting. I think some codes allow all AAV to be used. but others at least one real vent.I think that it would be best to get a vent installed off of the bathroom group.I don't know the construction or how hard it would be to run a vent up the wall behind the stool or if there is a closet behind it that you could run it it.But you can also run one outside. It sounds like if you extend the main line out the back and install a cleanout there and run the vent up the back and through the roof it would greatly improve the performace. And the, unless the negative slope is fixed, the cleanout will be frequently needed. Have no idea what the construction is like, but you can probably box around the external vent so that it is not an eye sore..
.
Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Needs SEVERAL vents.