is this drip edge doing its job?
Please take a look at this drip edge and tell me if you think it’s working properly:
On the right-hand side, you can see the rainwater dripping off the edge. Over on the left, though, the water runs down to the very bottom of the drip edge, then down the fascia, finally dripping off the bottom edge of the fascia.
I’m not a roofing expert, but the water shouldn’t be running down the fascia, should it? What’s the point, then, of having a drip edge?
The reason I ask this is I’m installing wooden gutters. On the first one I installed, in places where the water is running down the fascia, it collects on the inner edge of the gutter (which is a good 1/2″ wide), and some of it ends up running behind the gutter
So, do I install some sort of step flashing that tucks up beneath the bottom of the drip edge and then bends 90 degrees out over the inner edge of the gutter?
And why is this drip edge causing this issue in the first place?
My roofer installed it and he is reputed to be a guy who knows what he’s doing and does a good job
Thanks for the help
Edited 5/6/2009 6:58 am ET by Megunticook
Edited 5/6/2009 6:59 am ET by Megunticook
Edited 5/6/2009 7:02 am ET by Megunticook
Replies
add shingle moulding and the drip edge will work more like it's suppose to...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
And why is this drip edge causing this issue in the first place?
think the drip edge is pushed too tightly against the fascia...
use a larger profiled drip edge and shingle mould......
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Shingle moulding...hmmmm. Does that have the effect of pushing the drip edge out away from the fascia further?How feasible would it be for me to remove this drip edge and replace it? It's aluminum, I'm pretty sure he nailed it on with galvanized roofing nails (I suggested using aluminum nails with the aluminum edge, based on what I understand about dissimilar metals and corrosion, but he said he'd been doing it his way for 20 years and "never had a problem").Thanks again for the advice.
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it will move the drip edge out from the fascia abot 3/4 to 1"... and to add it now is no small task.. the shingles and starter will be short...
as far as the nails go... yur roofer installed the drip edge the same way as everybody else for ever... using deadicated similar nails for the edging is about unheard of.. as is works and last for the life of the roof...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
as far as the nails go... yur roofer installed the drip edge the same way as everybody else for ever... using deadicated similar nails for the edging is about unheard of.. as is works and last for the life of the roof...
If they use drip edge instead of hanging the shingles 2" off the edge.
BTW I use aluminum nails for aluminum drip.A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
What I call shingle molding is the 1x2-1/2" ( guessed dimension) immediately under the metal edge. There really isn't anything wrong with the install, it is just a unique little thing where sometimes you do fine and Mother Nature still does an end run and scores.easy tho to just slide a flat bar under that metal edge and roll it out a bit further from the wood to make it drip free.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Tweaking the bottom of the drip edge out away from the fascia might go a long way toward correcting the situation - I agree it looks like it's too tight against the fascia. What the slope on that roof?
And, an auxilary flashing into the gutter would probably be in order.
http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
The problem with that drip edge is the profile. The bend going from the outer edge (or "nose") of the drip to the fascia is about a 45-degree angle. This allows water to run, through the mechanism of surface tension, down the underside of the piece.
The bend should bring this part tight to the underside of the top. This would place it in line with the pitch of the roof. This angle would make the underside of the drip edge go uphill and the surface tension would be broken. As it is, it's doing more harm than good.
The wooden gutter should have a beveled board installed down onto the inner face of the gutter then the top beveled to match the roofs pitch .
If the gutter is installed without that back board , it's not an approved install.
Of course the best method is to also line the gutters with copper as well .
It's installed wrong. The leg sticking out should be under the shingles. and the leg profile sticks out from the fascia.
It's backwards.
Google Kay Kan Soffits and look at how it should be done.
Use same metal nails.
Sorry, Shoe--I don't see that. It looks like a very ordinary starter strip/drip edge, installed correctly. The apron goes under the felt and shingles; it can't have any bends or kicks in it and that fascia plane has a small (useless) kick.
This is the selection of drip-edges and soffit accessories on the Kaycan site. Look at the drip edge and the special eaves starter (#2 & 3):
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Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
No, Shoemaker is right - it is installed backwards!
Look at the picture again (I didn't catch it the first time either) You see where the bend is that should kick the drip out? It's shiny on top and darker underneith the bend... unless the sun in beaming from below that edge is installed backwards!
Look at the picture you posted: The drip edge here is the "Special Eaves Starter", except the long part is nailed off on the roof deck and the short part is under the shingle overhang
Tu stultus esRebuilding my home in Cypress, CAAlso a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
I see what you're saying, and yeah, the 'kick' on the fascia leg is bent the wrong way (towards the fascia instead of away from it)...but I've never, ever seen a drip-edge or starter-strip with the doubled part nailed under the shingles.
I think it's just a badly designed drip edge, is all.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
The drip edge is bent and installed properly except for the fact that it's too tight to the shingle mold which is already there. It can't be installed backwards. the only other way to turn it would create a dam at the roof edge. As said before, tweaking it out away from the wood will let the water drip free of the shingle mold. I typically overhang my shingles an inch which greatly cuts down on water even getting to the drip edge.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Thanx; I'll remember that next time somebody disses me for overhanging the shingles a full three-quarters!
Hijack alert:
Hey bro--do you have a recommendation for a nailgun for shakes? I've got a large shake roof to do sometime in the next few weeks. Going to be #1 resawn heavies; my stapler won't hold em and I don't want to have to hand-nail 30 squares.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Both you and Dinosaur are expecting to see a drip edge "Drip Edge" or the "Roof Edge Trim" as shown below.View Image
Take a look at the second water line in from the left. You can see the water drip actually bridging the surface. It could only do that if it was angling toward the facia, not away.
View Image
But hey - don't take my word for it! Will the original poster please speak up and say if the kickout is pointing INTO the eave or AWAY?
Tu stultus esRebuilding my home in Cypress, CAAlso a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
If what you say is true, then what's creating that shadow line? If it was bent as you say it is, there'd be no shadow. Look again. It's off the shelf drip edge, correctly formed. You're getting an optical illusion.
View Imagehttp://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Looks more or less like the standard drip edge they install around here. There's a kickout at the bottom, primarily to make it easier to slide metal gutters behind the edge. The one difference I see with this edge is that the bottom of the horizontal section isn't folded back against the top horizontal tightly enough, so there's a net slope towards the fascia. This could be a mfgr problem, or it could be that the installer pushed the edge in too tight when installing and distorted it.The biggest defect I see is that the shingles were cut off too close to the edge -- should extend beyond another quarter or half inch, so that the shingle will sag over slightly and form the true drip edge. The metal trim is there just to support the shingle so that it doesn't sag too much.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
The shadow is caused by the metal not being installed flush with the facia. In fact, I'd guess it was installed about 1/4" out, but that kick-IN brings the gap down to about 1/8" or less. The original roffer had enough sense to know that the bottom of the kickout shouldn't touch the facia!
Tu stultus esRebuilding my home in Cypress, CAAlso a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
Your eyes are not grasping what's really there. I can stare at it a while and I can see what you're seeing.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
"Kick-in"
Yeah, I thought it was a kick-in, too; which is why I said it was badly designed. But looking at Grant's modified image carefully, I can see that the kick actually is facing out...although it is not big enough nor angled out enough.
Why I now use custom drip-edges....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
It's plain as day that it is kicking away just like it always does.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It's plain as day that it is kicking away just like it always does.
Not to him - as I said: I stared at it a while and I can see what he's seeing. It's just not what's there. http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
I stared at it and saw the Virgin Mary.http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
I stared at it and saw Ingrid Bergman's tears in Casablanca.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Was it the weeping virgin?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Bergman was no virgin. Bogey did her in Paris.
"Here's lookin' at drip-edges, kid."
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
You know, if you guys would use screws to put your drip edge on with, instead of nails, this never would have happened.Popcorn time in 3....2....1....'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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Hey - Dale & co. will be departing Sat Morning. I'll keep you posted.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
OK. Looked like they are calling for showers again on Monday in case you haven't checked today.Thinking about opening a new branch of the Rainforest Cafe lately.'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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40% surrounded by 10% days. We'll gamble on those odds. One 20% day surrounded by 40%-60% doesn't give us much chance of winning.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Sounds grand. Looking forward to it. I'll plan to meet them Sat night at some point.'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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Nah, lag bolts.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Maybees it wuz the Extry Virgin Olive Oyl? (appologies to Bobbys<G>)http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
Yeah, after you first said that, I squirrled my eyes up and squinted just so, while tilting the monitor over about 19.5° and I could imagine it too. Had to work at it, but it's possible to see it - doesn't mean it's there tho.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hey, I may be wrong, but this is what I'm seeing:
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Tu stultus esRebuilding my home in Cypress, CAAlso a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
Yeah but, yer still wrong. The DE would have rolled stiffeners on the roof nailing flange or even crinkles. And you would also be able to see into the fold of the overhang crease. And the roof flange is at least 2x as wide as the overhang (that is actually 2 thicknesses) lip.
It ain't backwards.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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You're seeing it wrong. Note that there's a substantial shadow UNDER the lip, because it kicks out. The shading you're seeing on the lip is just due to reflective angle, not "shadow".
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
It has nothing to "dark" shadows?http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
???
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Go back to your drawer. This whole drip edge 'splaining to you thing is like quadruple punishment.
Surface tension pulls the water around the edge of the shingle protrusion back to the metal drip edge. It then pulls the water back to the wood from the bottom of the drip edge because it istalled too tight to the wood.
"This is how the piece should be installed". If that statement is correct, every piece of drip edge or "Special Eaves Starter" I've ever seen is installed wrong. http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
I think I know where my goof up was.
I was seeing the drawing maesurment hashes on the Special Eave edge as being the kickout. It doesn't end in a kickout, it just ends flat in their drawing. The rendered picture aslo looks like it has something extra on that bottom edge that makes it look like the kick.
I guess I was getting impressions from a drawing that was too small to read!
Tu stultus esRebuilding my home in Cypress, CAAlso a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
OK, took some more pictures this evening which may clear things up a bit.
Here's the same section of roof from a few different angles:
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Here's a perspective of the profile (sorry about the focus--couldn't get the camera to cooperate on this shot). This is the corner where the gable end meets the rake:
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Bottom line, based on everyone's comments so far, to my mind is that the drip edge wasn't installed backwards, but is a poor design. And the shingles could've been installed to overhang more (with the drip edge extending further out).
Best solution at this point (until the roof is replaced)--bend the bottom of the drip edge out or possibly bend the return fold on the nose tighter so it runs back toward the fascia under the shingles at a steeper angle, preventing water from rolling back toward the fascia.
And probably flash the top edge of the wooden gutter, too.
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For those tight shots, see if your camera has a Macro mode, this will allow super closeups like those.
Those were the pics we needed to see...
... and yes, it was not on backwards!
Tu stultus esRebuilding my home in Cypress, CAAlso a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
I know I'm going to get hammered on this, but I'll post some pictures of the first run of gutter I've installed already.
It's a retrofit, with some significant challenges, and also my first try at gutters, so be gentle.
Ideally the gutter would be right against the lower fascia (as opposed to what Piffin calls the "rainboard" which is fastened to the upper part of the fascia, 5/8" thick). Unfortunately there wasn't enough vertical space between the bottom of the rainboard and the bottom edge of the fascia for the pitch needed (20 foot run in either direction from center)--the bottom of the gutter would've dropped below the bottom of the fascia on either end.
Piffin actually suggested removing the rainboard a while back in another thread, but it was glued with PL Premium and nailed with ring shank nails, it's all GP Prime Trim, and I was afraid I'd make a total mess of things if I tried to tear it off.
So I made some spacers and brought the gutter out to the face of the rainboard. Not ideal, but the edge of the shingles is well out over the trough of the gutter, and I was assuming the water would all drop off the edge. And if that were the case, everything'd be just fine. But anything running down the rainboard face is pooling on the top inside edge of the gutter and some of it ends up running down the backside of the gutter. A piece of step flashing tucked underneath the drip edge the best solution? With a cap pitched to match the roof angle on top of the gutter edge below the flashing? In addition to modifying the drip edge itself?
Any and all ideas welcome.
Here's some pictures:
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(there will be no gap between the mitered return and the fasica when I'm done--made the decision to keep the rainboard after fabricating the gutter)
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When it's raining hard the gutter likely receives most of the water , but as the flow decreases you'll have the situation seen in your very first post and you'll have leakage behind the gutter .
How much roof is this piece of gutter draining ?
Since you don't have any board under the gutter or the back board in place - you're depending on the fasteners to support all the weight , including snow and ice load .
Heres a mock up I did recently to show an archy doing a job on Vinalhaven.
This gutter is larger than yours and it's meant to sit on lookouts , but you can see the support the under board and back board provide.
You'll likely want to bend some metal to go behind the DE and out over the back lip of wood gutter.
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I'd try something like a pair of sheetmetal folding pliers on the edge, to see if one could tighten the fold without mushing the shingles too badly. And you certainly can do a little surgery on that corner to get things to lay flatter. Worst case, on a warm day you might be able to lift the shingle edges enough to remove/replace the worst sections.It almost looks like the installer intentionally opened the fold.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
actually now U labeled it all up ...
I'm seeing what everyone else is seeing.
at first I was "seeing" it as bending wrong ... into the house.
now ... light bulb went off.
funny but it's bent out plain as day.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
As I said before, I may be wrong.
That never stopped me from making my best case though!
Tu stultus esRebuilding my home in Cypress, CAAlso a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
I was right there with ya till the very end.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
that's a shadow line you see...
View Image
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Thanks for all the replies. Sounds like that roofer--20 years experience notwithstanding--doesn't "get" drip edges.So, what would be the best permanent solution (well, at least for the life of this current roof)?I experimented during the rain yesterday with bending out by hand a small section of the lower part of the drip edge...definitely seemed to keep the water off the fascia.If this was your house, what would you do?
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You could have a custom piece made to insert under the lower piece coming down the fascia and out onto the inside of the wooden gutter to help prevent leakage there.
I'd be glad to stop in on my way back from Vinalhaven the next time out there if you'd like a second pair of eyes to look it over .
Walter
Hey Walter, I really appreciate the offer.I don't want to trouble you at the end of a long day, though...
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if this was your house, what would you do?
the roofer would be fixing it...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
That is what I thought it looks backwards.
I disagree that it's installed backwards. Perhaps the profile is improperly bent or was distorted during install, but the basic orientation appears correct.Note that this appears to be a gable end. Perhaps kickers should have been installed.But not sure I'd regard two drips running down in one spot as a defect.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
U shouldn't be pulling his leg like that.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It's a typical detail, done by nearly everyone, and it sucks as you can well see. Adding a piece of 1x (about 1.25" wide) up behind the vertical leg of the drip edge would bring the metal out another 3/4" where it would actually allow drips to free fall and not along the facia board. Not many bother to do this since it's really the exterior trim guys department, not normally the roofers. Since the roof is done, the best fix would be to gently bend the drip edge out away from the facia about a half inch or so to allow drips to fall clear. Not that difficult, can probably do it by hand if you work carefully.
You and Imerc don't see that he already has that?
He just needs to tweak out the face, and or add a strip under that and over the back of soon to be added gutter.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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"since it's really the exterior trim guys department, not normally the roofers. "Right - I normally try to get my shingle mold about 1-5/8" face, but this one seems to be about twice as bold.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks for all the great input, fellows. I'll try to get a few more photos tonight and answer some of those questions.I saw the drip edge product before the roofer installed it, I'm pretty sure it's not installed backwards.More later tonight--got kids to feed!
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There's been a good point made that the return fold is not crimped snug enough. That is common with the mill run style D AL drip edge we get around here. Might be possible to crimp it tighter in place.Walter might be able to do you that.He pointed out that the top of the wood gutter will have a bevel edge toip that the shingle mold should match in pitch. Since this is a retrofit and that would be hard to do, you might be best off to slip some metal behind that drip edge and down past the joint so water doesn't end up behind the gutter.Attaching a couple sketches for you the way I typically see it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
perhaps thay ledger you see in the pic is suppose to be shingle mould and the drip edge is that really economy stuff which is small to start with...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
You should take Slateman up on his generous offer.
It looks to me like an 8" dripedge installed correctly. A 4" could be installed upside down but an 8" can't.
I like to use custom dripedges with a 1/2" kickout at the bottom, but for off-the-shelf dripedge you get what you got. A little water on the trim isn't going to hurt anything.
There are a lot of things to watch out for installing wooden gutters though. Want to post your plan so we can tear it apart? Just kidding, so we can help you I mean?
it looks like the bend under the shingles is not at the same pitch as the roof thereby the water "sticking" to the metal surface (Surface adhesion- I think- High school Physics?) and flowing towards the fascia. Problem two is the last bend is toward the fascia- it should be the other way-a kick out- so the water drips off and away from the wood. Can you squeeze the drip edge in place with some seaming pliars to get the 1st bend to match the roof pitch? Don't see any fix for the kick out but maybe the seaming pliar squeeze will do the trick. good luck:)
I, too, believe that the drip edge looked backwards. With the new pictures, I'd say there should be a 1x2 placed in behind the drip edge, forcing it outward more. The slight kick-out bottom edge of the current dripedge isn't enough to make the water fall away from all that's under it.... Chances are the roofer put a young kid close to the edge to install the new drip edge and starter shingles......
Getting it fixed is going to be either a problem or a shortcut for the roofer.... If you don't split the cost or pay him for the added 1x2 and new edging, he's either going to leave the original edging on and overlay it with the new, or he's going rip out the existing drip edge, only to re-nail the new edging through the starter shingle....
If you leave it as it is, your paint is going to develop mineral stains or the paint is going to bubble and come off... It will make the roofer an unhappy guy, but then, you paid him to do it right...Nobody is going to pay you to live with the coming problems... Make him redo it. In a year he'll be happy again and in a year, you'll be happy and still have many years ahead of you with no problems.... ;>)
Bill
Edited 5/6/2009 11:27 pm ET by BilljustBill
drip edge is right but now I'm wondering if the house was built backwards?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
In this day and time, the house could be backwards, and I wouldn't be surprised.... There are fewer guys doing honest and quality work...no matter how well you pay....
I've learned that if work is being paid for, I look up as much info as I can, and then stand, watch, and ask questions when quality or shortcuts are seen, but I stay there from start to finish...
Then, there's Murphy's Law that's always around to add to the problems and costs.... ;>)
Bill
I've got it! Someone wired the sun's polarized plug plug BACKWARDS - now light and shadow are all mixed up.
Tu stultus esRebuilding my home in Cypress, CAAlso a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
"Make him redo it. "That would make me laugh at the customer. Two minutes with a flat bar adding some curl to the edge is all that is needed.
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I think I'd rather just take care of this myself than try to hunt down the roofer. It was 6 years ago that he put the roof on...he's still around but by the time I track him down and convince him to make time for it I could just have it done myself.The guy works alone, by the way...so no "kid" did this. I think it was just ignorance, topped off with the old "that's the way I've always done it" attitude. Pretty common. Don't think he was deliberately trying to short-cut anything. I'll just bend the bottom of the edge out and observe carefully when it rains. If I see any issues I'll install some step flashing behind the drip edge and down over the back lip of the gutter.As far as supporting the bottom of the gutter, with the constraints in my situation I don't think that's feasible, although I see the sense of it. It feels pretty strong as is--I wouldn't hesitate to hang my 220 lbs. off it (I pulled down on it pretty good from the ladder during the install, it felt very solid). It's fastened with 3 1/2" stainless GRK screws at every rafter tail (16" o.c.). I considered adding another set from underneath, but not sure it's warranted.Thanks for all the input. Learned a lot I didn't know about drip edges. Would like to replace the shingles with Galvalume or possibly copper when they wear out (wanted to do that originally but wasn't in the budget), at that time I'll certainly ensure that the edge of the roofing extends further out. That seems to be the key flaw here.
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"I think it was just ignorance, topped off with the old "that's the way I've always done it" attitude. Pretty common. Don't think he was deliberately trying to short-cut anything."Not even ignorance probably. I learned to fit it tight when I started and only began spacing it some more about maybe ten years ago.The factory made drip edge used to have a stronger turnout at the bottom than this does now, so it was better to fit it snug to the wood trim for several reasons. One is that you can get a better straight neat line top look at. Another is that it is fully supported and doesn't bend when you put a ladder against it.If there is a fault to be found it is that the manufacturers started dumbing down the product because it is cheaper to make the current way.There is a new style out the past few years that I have begun using. It is a F shape that has an extra turn down at the outer flange fold.
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I think this is what piffin is talking about
Yes, that is the new F-style
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megunticook,
i have seen this before , i tried to rebend the bottom leg out but to no avail...and it was very difficult.. so instead what i did was add a piece of flashing it was similar to the flashing that goes on the top of t-1-11 i installed it upside down between the roof shingles and drip edge ....it worked like a charm
the profile was i think 4"x3/8"x1/4 i think or for that matter you could bend something up your self (the 4 " goes up under the shingles +the bend goes down and out )
it kept the water away from the fascia and dripping properly and i best of all you do it 10 feet at a time ... simple and fast solution IMO of coarse...
cdwalsche
chris
http://www.walshbuilders.net
The roofer was likely installing the drip edge from the roof. You can't see the bottom flange from there, so the tendancy is to snug it against the fascia.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Well, six years after it's installed is a bit long to wait...most common sense roofing companies have a two year "warranty"...
The way the latter pictures are taken, the drip edge, even hand-bent-out, may not be enough to keep the water off the fascia. It's going to take an offset of a 1x2 covered with maybe a 2x2 drip edge to get the water to fall away from it.... With the Western Red Cedar fascia I used on the gambrel roof and porch of the 2-story storage cabin I'm building, I used it that way. When the new shingles were put on after last year's 30-minute long golf ball hailstorm, with the 1/2" shingle overhang combined with the extra 3/4" spacing of that extra narrow board, no stains or drip patterns can be seen anywhere on the fascia.
Talking about things done in a certain area of town or state, in the Atlanta, Georgia, area, one fellow that has long sold roofing on a daily basis there, said they don't even use drip edge....
Bill
Well, obviously you know more about roofing than I do. We should probably all follow the poor-boy example and leave all rip edge off from now on.
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I'm sure his success has nothing to do with the steep pitch of a gambrel roof vs. the low pitch of the OP's....
Well, obviously you know more about roofing than I do. We should probably all follow the poor-boy example and leave all rip edge off from now on.
Where are you coming from with comments like that
????????????????????????????????????
Just relying that different parts of the country do it different ways.... not my way.... certainly not the way I do it.
Heck, one roofing jerk from one of those fly-by-night companies told my neighbor she didn't need new drip edge and should "leave the old drip edge on so it still matches"... it was already 14 years old. Shady tatics to save him a buck, for sure.
So, explain what caused your comments.....
Bill
Heres a piece of copper I just picked up at the junkyard that would represent the copper liner that could be used with your wooden gutter install.
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explain?", the drip edge, even hand-bent-out, may not be enough to keep the water off the fascia. It's going to take an offset of a 1x2 covered with maybe a 2x2 drip edge to get the water to fall away from it...."didn't impress me as though it came form somebody who knew from experience.
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explain?
", the drip edge, even hand-bent-out, may not be enough to keep the water off the fascia. It's going to take an offset of a 1x2 covered with maybe a 2x2 drip edge to get the water to fall away from it...."
didn't impress me as though it came form somebody who knew from experience.
Well thank you Piffin....
I didn't know I HAD to impress you........ You know that I'm a learning DIY person, so why comment as a put-down? I thought the foundation of this forum was to share what works.... The fact is that It works for keeping the easily water stained Cedar fascia trim from having the problems the OP is trying to get answer for. The bare Cedar has remained unsealed until I can get up there with a lift or scaffolding to finish the soffit and seal fascia.
Well, obviously you know more about roofing than I do. We should probably all follow the poor-boy example and leave all rip edge off from now on.
Man, your experience helps when shared, but sometimes your cocky and negative attitude and answers just plain stink.....but then, with 30 years of working in Public Education, I'm not trying to impress you with my observations and experience of understanding and working with people.
Bill
Edited 5/7/2009 1:20 pm ET by BilljustBill
Yeah, sometimes my attitude just sucks.But in a forum for sharing knowledge, when a lot of ill-informed stuff sprouts in the garden, somebody has to be the badazz and pull the weeds. You want somebody to be tender and gentle about not hurting your feelings, go back to second grade.You wanna stuick by your story? Finetime to reveiew it.Why tell him to put a 1x2 under that drip edge when he already has one?And since adding more means pulling that metal forward, you have to add another shingle in above and make an ugly hump in the roof or lay the whole roof over again to make it right.It is all just plain silly.And you didn't offer the advice as one DIY to another with qualifications, you told him point blank to get the roofer to do it over - a DIY acting like he knows better than a roofer who has done a fine job that good be improved with a couple minutes work. That makes YOU sound like the arrogant one here.BTW, you don't have to impress me.
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time to reveiew it.
Why tell him to put a 1x2 under that drip edge when he already has one?
Okay, here's one his updated closeup shots. I don't see a 1x2 keeping the drip edge off the fascia, do you? I do know that like the saw kerf under the outside window sill keeps water from drawing back under it to the wall, you've got to have a space break between the bottom edge of the drip edge and the fascia to make the water drip away from it... Doing all the outward edge bending with a prybar going to make the bottom drip edge look like can opener does on the lid of a soup can... Slow and time consuming might make it look a bit better....
The length of the overhanging shingles would allow for a 1/2-3/4" trim board and new drip edge, but after the updated info of being installed 6 years, I'd bet the shingles wouldn't like it....
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If the 1x2 trim and drip edge process works and works very well, why would I have to "Say" more?
...a DIY acting like he knows better than a roofer who has done a fine job that good be improved with a couple minutes work. That makes YOU sound like the arrogant one here
It's not a fine job if it works like the pictures show....and I'm just a DIY guy.....
As far as Arrogant, no that's not me. If anything, it's the sorry experiences I had with 4 out of 5 roofing companies I've dealt with in the 32 years of hailstorms and new roofs... The first of four was a guy who did the new roof back in the late 70's. He's the only one that did it right... The second bid 30lb felt and had 15lb delivered...confronted him and he changed it ONLY to find when that roof was hailed on, he had put 15lb down anyway. The third company had a leak that dripped down a hanging ceiling lamp, on to a vase of red silk roses. The RED water covered the 1930's mahogany dining table and on to a 7 year old tan carpet... Even after professional cleaning, the 10' circle of RED Stains were permanent... That company refinished the table and attempted to hold it hostage wanting a release before the carpet was replaced... State Farm came through and handled them... The 4th company was contracted to do 15sq of decking and 30yr shingles, but it was in January and I paid them with them saying they'd be back when it was warmer to bend and seal the gambrel tranisition shingles, wouldn't come back...never came back.
Then this last time, the company overbid the two asphalt shingle roofs by 13 squares (at @201 a sq.)...then when the contract specified "Kynar" snow white paint R-panels, they tried to pass off the cheapest Polyester white that even the manufacturer won't warranty for chalking...at least $2,000+ cheaper R-panels.... Had to hang in there to get it right!!!
So, No not Arrogant, just tired of hiring "Professionals" who know better, who try to ripoff a paying client with the pricing per sq. THEY quoted.... Yet, they become rude and negative toward the customer simply because of staying in there to get what was contracted...
Edited 5/7/2009 3:42 pm ET by BilljustBill
I won't waste time arguing with you any more. Like I already said, you obviously know more than I do, even tho all you just stated is wrong. I can curl that edge out in a few minutes without it looking like a can openner. Just 'cause you don't know, don't project onto me
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Interesting thread.
Most residential roofs in my area do not have a drip edge of any type... nor are starter strips used.
I have seen drip edge installed by "professional" roofers *over* shingles... plus all kinds of nasty things done with tar on flashings.
I have installed drip edge, and it is installed just like the OP's picture- tight to the fascia. Usually, metal gutters are slid under the drip edge.
I haven't seen wooden gutters in my area... certainly not in any subdivision. I have seen plenty of copper half round gutter on older homes.
One of the pictures shows a view looking up and there is light between the fascia and the wodden gutters. I'm no expert, but I suspect that will cause problems down the road. My first inclination would be some type of urethane sealant... but I suspect the proper way is a gutter liner with an apron that extends up behind the drip edge. At least the urethane will prevent damage until the OP decides to do his metal roof.
Some type of detail that doubles as a gutter support might be a good idea.
One of the pictures shows a view looking up and there is light between the fascia and the wodden gutters. I'm no expert, but I suspect that will cause problems down the road. My first inclination would be some type of urethane sealant... but I suspect the proper way is a gutter liner with an apron that extends up behind the drip edge. At least the urethane will prevent damage until the OP decides to do his metal roof.
The light is visible where the gutter drops below the rainboard (or whatever you want to call that piece directly beneath the drip edge). As the gutter pitches toward either end, it drops below the bottom edge of that board (in the photos of the gutter I posted, you can see this on the shot of the end, but on the shot looking along the trough you see that there is no gap).
Admittedly this is kind of a screwy job--the gutter details should've been figured out on paper before we constructed the house--but gutters was a detail that got glossed over at the time. Part of the motivation now is landscaping below the eaves (which gets pummeled by the drips), keeping water from spashing back onto the siding when it hits the ground, directing water away from the foundation (we had the excavators install drainage pipe around the footings but even so...), and finally conserving rainwater in collection barrels for garden irrigation.
When I install the step flashing that gap will disappear. But frankly I don't think it's a huge issue the way it is for now--any water running down the fascia or draining off the back edge of the gutter can just drain down and out, and there's plenty of airflow for things to dry out. Everything's primed with alkyd and triple topcoated, including the back of the gutter, so I'm not too worried. Should have the flashing installed within the week (hopefully!)
This has definitely been interesting observing water behavior on the roof edge and hearing people's opinions
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Edited 5/7/2009 6:51 pm ET by Megunticook
Edited 5/7/2009 6:51 pm ET by Megunticook
Piffen,
we finished a nice roof yesterday---- starting a big,nice one monday.
supposed to rain this afternoon and off and on friday. Had a small project to do this morning.
quoted the project 3-10-09---- customer called last week to schedule. I mentioned that we were in the middle of a large project--when we finished it- I would come and handle her small project before we start the next big one.
called this tuesday to CONFIRM a thursday,8:00 AM appointment.
Helper and I show up this morning----- customer says she forgot we were coming. No problem----- you just need to move the cars out of the driveway as we don't want to run the risk of dropping a tool or a brick on the cars( we were to do some minor chimney masonry)
Oh!- she says- I can move MY car-- but the explorer doesn't run-- it can't be moved.Sorry- I told her-- we can't do the project then as we won't assume the libaility for the cars parked beneath the work area--- the proposal dated 3-10-09 clearly specified that the cars MUST be removed from the driveway. so- my day is wasted AND I am directly out of pocket for 4 hours pay which I paid to the helper for NOT working---because this nit wit refused to read her proposal or move her car. so- I am peeved-- this project was more of an annoyance/courtesythen anything--- and the woman essentially stole money from my pocket and wasted my time----- but as peeved as I am----at least I didn't get suckered into wasting my day arguing about drip edge, LOL Best wishes,
stephen
LOL, I designed two concepts of a kitchen, and research some shower modules and toilets, and wrote a proposal and sent it off! This thread was just for squirts and giggles.
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I've spent the day chasin $$ and chasing tall grass, two weeks of rain and acreage up to my kneecaps..mower is NOT happy with wet, thick grass.
Can't get the planting done either, too damm wet to plow and till, so I get to weedeat all day tomorrow so it'll dry out ssome.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Your wet weather is up here this week.
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Make that OUR wet weather, WE still have it too. More coming.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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(a) cover explorer with plywood and tarps(B) Start it(C) push, pull or drag it outta the waySpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Yes--- those are all things the homeowners COULD have done in the almost 2 months they have had since I first wrote them the proposal AND notified them of the need to get the cars out of the driveway and-- you just KNOW--- that the slightest mishap with that explorer----- turns that immobile junker into a priceless collectible when they try to dick me on MY insurance maybe I am extreme-- but I don't think it's unreasonable to require customers to move their cars out of a driveway prior to roof/chimney work, LOL
stephen
??????????????????
I, too, know when to quit... :>) To use your words:
Personal QuoteOh well!
Bill
Perhaps you should post that info here.http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=119910.1
Ya know what I have noticed in this thread Piffen??? there is NO pleasing some people about 100 posts-----and I see that the people who have installed MILES of drip edge point out that this drip edge is installed correctlyand about 3 guys who wouldn't know a piece of drip edge if you shoved it up their left nostril---are insisting it is installed "wrong"-- BACKWARD even---even declaring a non-existant reverse bend. there is a reason things are done a certain way---and on the topic of you can't please everyone-------------
when you pull the drip tight like that against the fascia-----it is a smooth straight clean line------- if you "space it"-- it's puckered ,wavy,"Gappy"----and I bet you a dozen donuts---- somebody will complain that THAT way is wrong-- there is no pleasing some people. Me personally?-- I install it pretty nearly exactly as shown--- but I run my shingles 3/4" to 1" past the drip( depending on how straight the edge of the roof is---frequently it's got quite a banana in it)
but hey--wadda I know?, LOL Best wishes, all,
stephen
Must be rainy there for you to post this time of day.
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The kickout at the bottom isn't intended to make the water fall away. That should be accomplished by a (missing) downward slope in the actual edge. The kickout is present to make it easier to slide metal gutters behind the edging.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
That is not correct. It does happen to make it easier, but the purpose is to kick water away. Remember there are lots of houses with no gutters!( Uh0oh, this thread just doubled in length - could go perpetual now if somebody suggests hanging the gutters with SR screws)
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> Remember there are lots of houses with no gutters!Not around here, where that style of edge is used pretty universally (without any trim behind it to bump it out).(Don't see none of that prissy wood gutter around here either.)
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
But making assumptions based on your area does not make your statement correct.
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Interesting in this thread to see how similar the comments from experienced roofers and SM guys are, while the comments from others are all over the map, some half good and some wildly imaginative!Hey Duane - your comment on water velocity makes good point. We get a lot of misty foggy days where there is no velocity at all, which might account for 90% of the staining we see on that facia.
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Doesn't make it incorrect either. Our area is much more typical of the bulk of the housing stock in the nation than is an area where wood gutters are commonly installed (and where one worries about a few drips down the fascia).
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
wood gutters just happens to be a portion of this thread - it has nothing to do with standard drip edge design.
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Our area is much more typical of the bulk of the housing stock in the nation...
...which doesn't necessarily make it good, just common. More people eat Velveeta than cheddar, too.
Eaves-mounted gutters are an abomination and a major maintenance PITA. An intelligently-designed house does not need gutters on the eaves..
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Dinosaur, just curious--where does the water running of the roof go in an "intelligently designed house" so that you don't gutters?
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just curious--where does the water running of the roof go in an "intelligently designed house" so that you don't [need] gutters?
Heh, heh. I was waiting for someone to ask that question.
It falls to the ground, duh. <G>
Okay, I'm being a smartarse; forgive me. I just got off the phone from arguing with the phone company, and that always puts me in a lovely mood....
Rain gutters come in two sorts: eaves-mounted gutters (the preferred term is actually 'eaves-troughs'), and gutters at ground level. I said that an intelligently designed house shouldn't need eaves-mounted gutters.
Eaves-troughs are fragile and subject to ice damage. In heavy snow areas like mine, many people have given up even trying to keep gutters on the house year round; they use a snap-on/snap-off plastic gutter that is removed every fall and replaced every spring; and as you might expect they are not pretty. But even when they don't get ripped off by ice, eaves-troughs are a perpetual maintenance nightmare: they collect dead leaves, branches, shingle granules, sludge, and so forth. They interfere with decorative elements present in the fascia or cornice moulding. Most of them also leak at joints. They are just generally a horror show.
It is not hard to design a home that doesn't need eaves-mounted gutters; all you have to do is put the entry door(s) on the gable walls of the house. Or, if that's not an option for whatever reason, you can use what's called around here an 'Ontario Peak', which is nothing more complex than a minor gable roof at right angles to the main gable, whose sole function (aside from æsthetics) is diverting run-off water to each side of the main entry. There are other ways to design an eaves-trough-free house; these are only a couple of the easiest ones.
Obviously, however, once it drips to the ground you don't want roof run-off saturating the ground against the foundation. If you have a wide porch roof that gets the drip plane well away from the house, and your land slopes away from it too, you can probably ignore it. If not, gutters should be built on the ground directly on the drip-line from the roof.
Ground-gutters are much older technology than eaves-troughs and they are much less trouble: All maintenance is done at ground level; they can't get smashed or ripped down by icicles; it doesn't matter if they leak a bit; and they obviously do not detract from the look of the house by cluttering up the face of it with off-level troughs and downspouts and all the rest of it.
A ground-gutter can be anything from a simple gravel-filled trench draining to a rock-pit (or to a buried culvert running away to daylight somewhere out of sight), right up to an elaborate system consisting of sunken half-culvert filled with gravel and covered with geotextile and decorative cast-iron gratings on grade.
Just a couple of examples....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I see your point. I've certainly seen a lot of nightmare situations involving gutters.We've lived in this house, which we designed, without gutters for 6 years now and there haven't been any major issues.But as I mentioned in an earlier post, there are several things we want to accomplish (plantings beneath the eaves, saving rainwater for irrigation, etc.) and gutters seem like a good solution.I may be wrong--I'll find out--but I think these sturdy wooden gutters, snugly fastened to all the rafter tails with stainless screws, are going to do just fine in the winter. And with regular spring and fall cleaning and refinishing of the trough every year, I'm betting that wood will remain rot-free for the rest of my days. But time will tell.
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there are several things we want to accomplish (plantings beneath the eaves, saving rainwater for irrigation, etc.) and gutters seem like a good solution.
I'm definitely not the right guy to know about what kind of plants you could put in the path of the 'rain curtain' that falls off a gutterless roof, but I'll betcha some of the 'Fine Gardening' folk at Over the Fence would know that. They're a very helpful, friendly bunch, too.
As to recuperating roof water for irrigation, I don't see why you couldn't do that with ground gutters although you'd obviously have to do some digging and possibly put a small pump in the cistern.
Hmmmm.... I'm imagining a combination of those two functions--this is just a brainstorm, you understand--wherein you might plant a row of bushes in 6-12 inches of loam over geotextile laid on a gravel bed, the whole thing set in a buried half-culvert leading down to your cistern. Sorta like a big, long flowerpot....
And with regular spring and fall cleaning and refinishing of the trough every year, I'm betting that wood will remain rot-free for the rest of my days.
And with regular spring and fall cleaning and refinishing of the trough every year.... Arrrgghhh! ;-)
Actually, if you go that route I really think you'd be better off taking Grant's and Walter's suggestion to line them with copper.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Rain gutters come in two sorts: eaves-mounted gutters (the preferred term is actually 'eaves-troughs'), and gutters at ground level. I said that an intelligently designed house shouldn't need eaves-mounted gutters.
I noticed that there were no eave-mounted gutters at restored colonial Williamsburg, Va. They have the gutters at ground level.
The term eavesdropping goes back to the Middle Ages and evokes the image of someone standing in the dark in the "eaves drop line" listening to a conversation inside the house.
The term eavesdropping goes back to the Middle Ages....
Thanks; I didn't know that one. I always appreciate entymological stories.
Here's one for you:
In French, the correct word for eaves troughs is gouttières, but the commonly used term, especially among the older folk, is dalles. Gouttière means, essentially, '(rain)drop thingy' (from gout, which means 'droplet'). But the word dalle is the same one used for the gutter on the side of a bowling alley or a street, and in the old days, all 'gutters' for houses were on the ground except for that one short section over the entry path.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
In heavy snow areas like mine,
Everyone doesn't live in that sort of environment. I didn't notice when I was up there, but are basements common there? Local architecture typically reflects necessity and material availablity.
Here basements are common and everyone doesn't have the luxury of building on the top of the hill. My house is on top of the hill with wide soffits. I don't need gutters. But the house looks better with them, since it was designed with them. And my copper gutters look better than the old alum ones did.
Also, there are still a lot of areas that don't have water service, so the gutters are the water collection and there is renewed interest in gutters due to the "green" fad. I agree with you in principal, but your comment is akin to saying "if everyone obeyed the law, we wouldn't need police". The theory is correct, but not applicable. http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
In parts of the town I live in sump pumps are mandatory in some neighborhoods because of high water tables.
Eave Gutters are plumbed to the curbs and water ends up in storm water drains .
No gutters/ground level gutters means you are adding water to an already high water table unless you are going to do something like concrete troughs to catch all the water at the eave line.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
And my copper gutters look better than the old alum ones did.
Your copper eaves-troughs are so pretty they're actually worth all the trouble of owning 'em!
Basements? Yeah, they're moderately common here but many aren't full height because the builder hit the Canadian Shield 5 or 6 feet after he started digging. Blasting the bedrock to seat a house is just dumb; all you wind up doing is creating an underground swimming pool that will leak into the basement no matter whatcha do to prevent it. So in the old days they just laid up enough block to get a couple of feet above grade and called it done. Yuk.
Better to pour the walls full height then bring in fill to bury them as deep as wanted. That's what we did with my place: Eighteen 18-wheelers of sand, then a couple of six-wheelers of topsoil to landscape with.
Sand's plentiful and cheap up here so that's the preferred fill and it drains like a charm. Very rare to have a wet basement as long as the rock slopes one way or another under it...which, in the mountains, it generally does. We can get away without eaves troughs if the house design is suitable.
But traditional Québec 'habitant' houses have the main entry on the long wall, and don't use the Ontario Peak. Instead, in the old days they nailed a 6' section of half-round wood eaves trough to the larmière (porch roof) directly over the pathway leading to the front door. Both ends of the trough were left open; they didn't use downspouts. Being that short and wide open like that, it was self-cleaning in every heavy rain.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
You got pics of ground gutters. All I have seen is crushed gravel to prevent splash back.
so the kick out isn't there to act as a kick out?
wow ... are you like a gutter ninja or something? You sure have lotsa answers!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Yikes, asking what seemed like a simple question was like tossing a match into a pool of gasoline.
But anyway--I took a half hour at lunchtime to bend out the drip edge, as Pif and other suggested, and took the ol' garden hose to the roof (was raining all morning but stopped the minute I went out there).
Helps a lot, keeps the water off the fascia, but I can see I will need to flash the lip of the gutter. I'm thinking I will cut a beveled strip to match the 6/12 roof pitch and fasten that to the gutter, then run the flashing over that. It's interesting to watch the water collect on the back edge of the gutter--it's milled with a bevel, and most of the water that collects runs into the trough, but it pools enough that some of it will run down the backside. With more of a bevel that probably wouldn't happen.
As far as lining the whole trough with copper, as was suggested, I think with proper care the gutter will outlast me--I'll find out, anyway.
I think this issue will disappear when I replace the roof with metal and run the edge out further. I built a shed and installed a galvalume roof myself (Max-Rib product), has the same roof pitch (12/12 with a transition to 6/12 on one side) on one side and 100% of the water drips down straight from the edge.
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"Yikes, asking what seemed like a simple question was like tossing a match into a pool of gasoline"
just to keep the fightin' going ...
tossing a lit match into a pool of gas will just make the lit match go out.
same as with a bucket of gas ... toss in a lit match and watch everyone scatter ...
lotsa old good fashion fun. Nothing happens except for a nonflaming match floating there ... room temp gas doesn't burn ... gas vapor burns. Open pool ... opr bucket ... no trapped vapor ... no fun explosion.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Under the right conditions you can get a "poof".
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
it's still alot of fun.
my biker BIL showed me that trick when I was about 10 ...
same one who could hold a lit match between his gums and teeth ... flip it into his mouth ... close then open his mouth ... and the flame would still be lit. Very impressive!
also the same one who asked me if I ever saw a match burn twice ...
hated learning that one.
but have used it many times since!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
room temp gas doesn't burn ... gas vapor burnsNot to follow you off topic here, but the firefighter in me can't resist as people who don't understand the properties of flammable liquids sometimes get hurt.You're correct to say that gasoline vapor burns. Gasoline in its liquid form won't burn at any temperature. But gasoline vaporizes at room temperature and well below that (the "flash point" of gasoline, or the lowest temperature at which it will vaporize, is -40 F).Lighting a match or having any sort of potential spark around gasoline that's not confined in a closed container--that's producing vapors out into the air, in other words--is extremely dicey. If you see somebody toss a lit match into a pool of gas and the match goes out when it hits the pool, that doesn't mean it's a safe practice. It means either that the proportion of gasoline vapor to air was above or below the flammability limits (too rich or too lean, in other words), or else that there wasn't sustained contact between the match flame and the vapor. It could easily have turned out different.A lot of people are hurt badly or even killed because they don't understand this (I used to be one of them).Not trying to lecture, just clarifying an important point.Creative Communications | Logos | Business Cards | Websites | http://www.hwaters.com Edited 5/8/2009 7:17 am ET by MegunticookEdited 5/8/2009 7:19 am ET by Megunticook
Edited 5/8/2009 7:20 am ET by Megunticook
sometimes fun isn't safe!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
> so the kick out isn't there to act as a kick out?I doubt it. It would need to be at least twice as far out to be effective. The amount of kickout would need to be substantially larger than the diameter of a large drop of water.In addition to making the gutter install job easier, it prevents the edge from digging in when installed against plumb fascia.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
you should all all the drip edge manufacturers and let them all know their kick outs are useless. You'll probably save them millions.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Not useless -- it does the intended job.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
I have always thought the primary function of this "kick-out" was to stiffen the lower edge of the drip edge. Imagine how distorted that edge would get without that stiffener. Our typical installation calls for installing the drip edge with a 1/4" to 3/8" gap between it and the shingle moulding. Snapping a line and laying to that keeps the drip edge from distorting and looking like crud.
I've hung a lot of gutter, various profiles, various hangers. I can tell ya w/out notching the DE, 99% of the gutter doesn't go up under the front lip. The hangers interfere. And the gutter has pitch.
The flange on the bottom is a water break, and also doubles to beef up the DE so it's not as likely to be ripply on that face when spanning any irregularities in the sheathing/fascia/shingle mold interface.
In this case, I'd just use my 5 in 1 or a taping knife ( something wider than a small wonder bar, to spread the force) and pry the front away. Then go ahead and slip up a sheetmetal filler that IS notched around the hangers ( which in this there are none, but CU and AL are hung with some sort) and riveted to that front face of the DE. That will have to lap over the back of the wood gutter here.
When purcahsing and handling DE that are nested together, the outer stick is always spread open more than the inner of the bunch, just from the the others forcing open the fold, so there is also that to eyeball when installing the DE.
Then there is a chance that the fascia it self isn't plumb. This roof just has not enough velocity to get the water away and or shingle overhang. Wider surface tension breaks would help a lot.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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I personally don't think this is a bad installation by the roofer.. I just think its a product that isn't entirely effective.
I see this all the time especially on new homes with white metal fascias and dark asphalt roofs. 6 months later and the fascia will look zebra striped.
Now I've also never hung the shingles out by the drip edge an inch, I would suspect in areas with large amounts of snow this wouldn't be that good of an idea. I would use something like the rite flow DE instead.. it works better, but of course its more expensive.
BTW I try my hardest NOT to be a roofer :)
I only over hang about a quarter inch. Most of the ones I see that are overhung 3/4 to 1" are either breaking from ladders and limbs and ice, or sagging down from heat. The metal flange is there to support the shingle so it doesn't curl or break down.
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I think it's obvious most people never look at how drip edge functions after it's installed , but just assume that water shouldn't touch the fascia .
In a perfect world that might be true , but numerous factors are at play in most installs .
Your roofer did just as 99.76 % of most roofers do in putting the drip edge in place .
You are likely going to cover the fascia to make the gutters functional so it's really a moot pont.
Here are a few pictures taken an hour ago on a prospective gutter job.
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