My roof is completely covered w/ 30# felt, but there are a several spots which leak. The leaks seem to be were I nailed cleats to the roof. I have one section shingled & there don’t see any leaks there.
I don’t understand how felt can really provide any protection anyway. Someone told me that the tar in the felt is supposed to seal the nail holes, but it looks like there are plenty of holes just from the staples alone (especially after a couple of windy days when some of the staples pulled through). Did I do something wrong or is felt just supposed to provide minimal protection against moisture, but a good rain is going to get through?
Edited 10/24/2005 7:59 pm ET by Soultrain
Replies
An old-timer told me that the tar-paper reduces the degree to which the shingles 'bake' from summertime attic heat. Says the shingles will last much longer if their underside is protected by the paper.
costofwar.com/
Obviously the section that is leaking ... you installed the tar paper upside down. Gonna hafta tear off all the shingles and flip the paper over.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Ya big meannie!
Lemme get this straight....
YOU BANNED REZ?!?!
Holy bagels and lox Batman!
I knew it!!!! :)
The cleats are slowing the drainage....enough that water is finding its way in at the points where fasteners poke through the paper.
Roofing felt is water resistant.....but only to a point. It does not seal around nails and or staples. (Thats what ice shield is for)
Just hurry up with your shingle installation.
Lemme get this straight....
YOU BANNED REZ?!?!
Holy bagels and lox Batman!
Not to sidetrack the topic...If tar paper is just water resistant, why don't we just use ice shield on the entire roof? I have a leak around a nail hole right now. I'm thinking that an ice shield would've prevented the issue. Is it purely a cost factor? Or is there some specific reason why you shouldn't?
How does Ice & Water completely prevent leaks when all the roofing nails are driven trhough it?
The rubber/tar component of ice and water barrier is flexible enough to stretch tightly around the shaft of the nail. The tar in the felt paper will do the same but not as well.
Tar paper will work as a temporary measure to keep water out. I have some on my roof right now which has been working perfectly for three weeks. Every day I leave it uncovered reduces the likelihood that this will continue. The elements will dry out and stretch the paper until it rips somewhere, usually around a nail.
The same problem would happen with ice and water barrier but it would take quite a bit longer. Both these materials are primarily meant to be used as roofing underlayment and to be protected from the weather by the shingles. Of course they are also used to temporarily dry in the roof. If you do this long enough with enough different roofs, you will eventually have problems, maybe even a disaster (we did).
I don't know a lot about roofs but there was a house that I was working on that had more valleys, hips and any other roofing term that you can think of.
They covered the entire roof with i & w shield. It was a big roof, probably 60 sq. I figure it cost a lot but they had the money.
Doug
Ice & Water shield can be used for the entire roof, but I would not want to be the one replacing the shingles in thirty years.
There is the argument that ice and water shield is a vapor barrier, which in cold climates never goes on the outside. Tarpaper allows some moisture to pass. Now, I've heard that argument, but I'm not at all sure it holds water.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
>Now, I've heard that argument, but I'm not at all sure it holds water.Cute.In a vented attic this shouldn't matter because it dries through the vents. In an unvented attic, I'm not sure, but if its unvented by spray foam under the roof deck, it shouldn't be absorbing too much water vapor to begin with. But I'm with you, I can see both arguments and don't want to be the first to try it to see which is right.
Glad somebody got the pun....
I'd differ with you on the vented attic part though. What I'd say is that in an attic without moisture problems, it shouldn't matter. That could be vented or not.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Throwing out a good pun in a forum can be like casting a rubber worm for bass. You can't imediately see the interest beneathe the water's surface and have to go on faith that it is worth while...I caught it and thought to myself, "How subtle he is getting with these little masterpieces!"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I saw it....snickered....and moved on.
"Masterpiece"?!
You buckin` fer a promotion?
Lemme get this straight....
YOU BANNED REZ?!?!
Holy bagels and lox Batman!
Promotion?I'm already working above my paygrade!If you don't like masterpieces, how abou Master Peacesor mutterspecies...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin is definitely red circled - Only cost of living raises for him.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Smart move......I mean, how much could that be in that bass-ackwards part of the country?
(Ooops....did I say that out loud?)
Lemme get this straight....
YOU BANNED REZ?!?!
Holy bagels and lox Batman!
What about my profit sharing bonus? You guys keep living large at that big Taunton dinette set and I'll only be able to afford a wreathe this year and forget the tree.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Some Swamp Yankee you've turned out to be if you're thinking of buying a tree. Don't they plant alongside the Interstate where you live?Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
What's an Interstate, Daddy?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Ice shield is not meant to be left exposed to the elements. It is an underlayment.
It would not be cost effective to use it to "dry in" a house. Even when using felt, the idea, and hope, is that the finished product is to be installed ASAP. However, having to replace damaged felt paper is a heck of a lot easier and cheaper than having to replace damaged ice shield.
It would also be considered overkill to use it to cover the entire roof, instead of the less expensive roofing felt.
Its primary purpose is to act as a second layer of protection in areas of a roof prone to ice damming.
Lemme get this straight....
YOU BANNED REZ?!?!
Holy bagels and lox Batman!
Last month I used Grace Tri-Flex 30 (very similar to RoofTop Guard) to temporarily dry-in my house. I couldn't have been more impressed. I nailed it down as prescribed with roofing nails and roofing tins (silver dollars) and even with all those penetrations, it kept the water out perfectly. Only place I got a drip was on the 5 pitch side where I left a cleat nailed so I could get back down... the water would back up here under the 4" lap and drip around the 16D I used to nail the cleat down.
I agree with JDRHI 100% that I&W is not a cost effective method for extended dry-in. But this Tri-Flex is just the ticket. IIRC, it has a 6 month exposure time. You can't tear it with your hands, and it comes in a 10 square roll that only weighs 30 lbs. Nice stuff to work with.
I've always looked at felt as providing two services.
First it stops the shingle asphalt from being wicked into the roof structure on hot days. Anyone who has had to strip an old roof where felt was not use will never forget that struggle.
The second being a layer of protection to allow the independant movement of both the roof structure and roof covering during different temprature ranges.
I have never looked at felt as a moisture barrier at all, crindge whenever it gets rained on
I have had requests to cover entire roofs with Ice and Water shield. It makes for a bit of adventure even on low pitches if there is any morning dew at all. Both times I did it was for cedar shakes the were being installed in old structures and 1x's were nailed over the Ice and Water shield to attach the shingles to. I thought it was building a shingle baking oven but it was what the owner wanted and he was signing the check.
Thanks All.
I'm working to get the shingles on (and housewrap too), but it's been raining every other day (pouring, not just a little mist) - Someday I'll get this thing finished :)
Had a pretty severe nor'easter last night (50 mph wind & rain). None of us slept to well last night (we're living in a temp trailer which was shaking pretty heavily - sounded like the roof was going to blow off). Thankfully there was no damage other than a few strips of felt being torn off - the shingled section was completely in tact.
I can't imagine what it must be like to live in hurricane country.
Yes- it is normal. Tar paper (felt) won't make your roof water proof - more like mostly water resistant...
Tar paper (felt) won't make your roof water proof - more like mostly water resistant
Now, a gazillion years ago (the early 80s), in school, they taught that felt was a waterproofing surface, that all of the old "tarpaper" shacks survived just fine. Same grizzled old Construction Science professor also said that no roof would leak if it weren't for the MEP stuff. And chimnies. And architectureal frufrus (with a knowing satirical leer right 'round the classroom <g>).
So, we were taught that the flet made it waterproof, the shingles were there to protect the felt. That was iwth the 20# & 30# felt of "back then," too.
IWS is to create an anti-ice dam barrier over the felt that can "stand" brief immersion in liquid water. Or, 'leastways, that's my understanding.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
any observations on how those shake roofs are doing where you used I&Wshield and 1 X material thanks john
I know one only made it 5 years. Although the homeowner claimed otherwise is was a result of annual pressure wasing to keep the color from changing. Gotta love the folks these days pressure washing soft wood and wondering why it doesn't hold up.
The second is at 10 years and doing fine. It is on a barn and I think that helps keep the moisture in better balance than if it was on a residence.
"IWS is to create an anti-ice dam barrier over the felt that can "stand" brief immersion in liquid water. Or, 'leastways, that's my understanding."
Thought IWS is applied directly onto the plywood or osb deck - that's what the adhesive back is for. Applying IWS over felt/tarpaper seems like a waste of materials to me. Are there benefits to having these two layers under the shingles?costofwar.com/
Yeah... I agree. Other than a valley that dumped back onto an open roof plane, I can't figure a situation where I&W would best be applied lapped onto felt.
Thought IWS is applied directly onto the plywood or osb deck
Oops, that's right, was typing before replaying the tape of actual practice in my head . . .
I may be thinking back to the early days when we papered right over the IWS, recollection of installation melding with the wretchedness of tear-off in the summer sun <g>.
Perhaps a germane question about felt would be, how many nail versus hammertack? I remember one commercial job, having to put washers under gadzillions of roof tacks for a bank job one horrible long hot summer for about a week or two <g>.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I do both.The staples from the hammertacker are faster to get it down bubt the plastic-cap nails hold better against the wind.Back in TX, I used to have a slap tacker witha magnet mouted on the nose piece, so I could hold a handfull of discs in one paw and swipe one off with themagnet, then drive the staple through it to the roof.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Don't know about what you learned in school. What I know is what I learned through actual expierence on the construction site.