I am in the process of putting sheathing on an outside wall that previously had none under the siding. Is it to code to attach with screws, ie 2″ galvanized, or are nails required? This
of course includes what is now a shear wall in a cabin/house in Northern California.
Thanks
From building boxes and fitting face frames to installing doors and drawers, these techniques could be used for lots of cabinet projects.
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Replies
Yes, you may use screws. Specificly look at the ones made by Senco, availible in buckets of 1000 at HD for about $35. They also make a $99 corded driver also available at HD. It takes about 50 screws per 4x8 sheet. They are code approved, but I can't seem to find that PDF at the moment.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Believe it or not I know of a guy who's building his entire house with screws. There is'nt a nail anywhere in the place.
He's been at it 2 years. I dont know what his plan is when he gets to roofing it
"Believe it or not I know of a guy who's building his entire house with screws. There is'nt a nail anywhere in the place.He's been at it 2 years. I dont know what his plan is when he gets to roofing it"Why would anyone use scews for sheathing and to top it all off this guys using them for his whole house. That's probaly why it's taking two years to build it.Joe Carola
Exactly. Wimps who can't learn how to swing a hammer and drive a nail!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hey - I resemble that comment!
Actually, screws are better for newbies anyways. If they goof something up and have to go back, they can easily zip out 50 or 100 screws, then put them back after the correction is made.
Now, after that same newbie gets done pulling 50 or 100 nails, do you think any part of those materials is still going to be salvagable?Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
After he gets done pulling those nails, he'll learn to think when he works and avoid stupid mistakes.Screws are better for some things, when they are the rioght screws. I use perhaps over a thousand and maybe two thousand dollars worth of screws a yeara. All kinds. I even use screws a lot for some framing items.But I do it when it is tright for the job. For instance, in remodeling,. too much jarring around banging on walls can loosen up things on the other side or upstairs. A screw is gentle on things. And if you have read the piffin screw story, you know how important it is to use the right screw for the right job.But a blanket statement that screws are better is ignorant. Use a screw when a nail is right and you can hurt the job, the budget, the scedule all in one fell swoop.Learning basic skills is worth the investment.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"But a blanket statement that screws are better is ignorant. Use a screw when a nail is right and you can hurt the job, the budget, the schedule all in one fell swoop."
You are absolutely right! For instance, screws are a pretty poor way to attach asphalt shingles. Nails are also best when you are daily using them to assemble wall after wall, joist after joist, day in and day out as your chosen profession where you get paid for your results per hour. Those are just a few examples of course of millions why nails should be used.
However, in this specific case you are advocating this person use nails so that he can develop a specific skill that will be useful if he continues doing large construction projects. If that's his aim, then great! End of discussion! But If he is just a handy DIYer, then he is loosing flexibility in how to accomplish or make changes and fixes in his project.
I know you are a pro with a ton of experience under your belt - sharing your experience has taught me a lot here. I know you can look at a project and immediately understand all the things that need to be done, and in what order. I know that when you are done with a project, you move on to the next client never to return again because you did it right the first time. I know that if you get a change request in the middle of a project, it has to be a big deal as it will entail rework to the original plans and more associated labor costs.
But this is not the world a handy DIYer lives in. If he's like me, he will get everything he thinks he needs and then start the project... only to have to restart from the beginning because of a detail or material that was missing when he started. Then he will get the right info - what he didn't know he didn't know - and rework to a certain point... then realize he got so much better as he went on, becoming better at the tools, materials, and techniques... so much better that his first efforts look disproportionately bad. So again he goes to the beginning and reworks that ugly early portion. Then he gets 3/4 the way done and he realizes that that outside wall he is sheathing is also where he needs an extra outlet for his office, maybe an Ethernet port for his kids room too while he is at it. Hey, wasn't he thinking about putting up some heavy shelves on the other side of that wall later? All sorts of Change Requests go through when you are the owner, architect, and builder in the same split second - for better or worse you never talk yourself out of a change. So he goes back and removes two of the panels he already mounted, does the extra work or at least makes way for it, then refastens them and goes on to the end.
Now, will learning how to drive a nail like a pro REALLY serve him well in this case - or will it work against him as he continually finds himself pulling those same nails multiple times? Mabey he will get so far in that going back to do it right doesn't make sense anymore. Or, he might go buy himself a cheap nailgun (why buy a good one, he's not a pro after all) and find out the hard way (no other pro's to teach him) that you don't point the gun at your chest when you drive a nail, like the latest issue of JLC apparently shows.
Please forgive me for not being specific in my earlier statement. I should have made my statement in this way:
"Screws are better for handy DIYers when they are code equivalent to nails as it allows them to easily correct their inevitable mistakes and make changes before the completion of their project"
Oh, the rumored "lost verse" of that song basicly states how after the guy running the steam drill finished his hole in the mountain, he laid his tool down and said "Ow, my wrist hurts" and then went home and played with his kids. Not as glamerous as the "flamming hammer" guy, so it got cut before it was recorded. You guys with the hammers get all the glory, get all the cool phrases. We just get screwed.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Edited 6/12/2005 9:44 pm ET by xxPaulCPxx
Edited 6/12/2005 9:45 pm ET by xxPaulCPxx
that you don't point the gun at your chest when you drive a nail, like the latest issue of JLC apparently shows.
Are you talking about that melamine shelving article? I saw that photo and thought man, I wouldn't be doing that.
I consider that the author was making that pose shot upon instruction by the photographer and that that wasn't part of his normal routine.
be I certainly hope so Ollie
A person with no sense of humor about themselves is fullashid
I give up...Screw it!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
My plaster gets pretty p!ssed off when I use nails, so I use screws just about any time I can. "This old house" shakes pretty hard when I use a framing nailer too.
Just a little addition to what I was saying before, you might want to check here http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=59345.58
I actually did a quick test of the Code approved 2" Senco screws I mentioned earlier vs. the Code approved 8d Common Bright nails. I nailed both through 15/32 OSB decking. Take a look at how the two do against one another.
Also - I just opened a "rip on me" thread in the Tavern, if anyone wants to vent on me there instead of in this guys thread
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Edited 6/14/2005 8:42 pm ET by xxPaulCPxx
For a DIY to build something using screws when the rest of the world uses nails just because if he makes a mistake he can just take out his scre gun and remove whatever it is the SCEWED UP ...;-) is just RIDICULOUS to me. Maybe he should use nails and just tack everything together and make sure it's right first and if it isn't right he can pull the heads of the nails out easier. These DIY'ers should be friggin men and nail it up and be done with it..............Joe Carola
Man, you really "dropped the hammer" on me :(
I feel so "banged up" now.
I guess I'll just have to go drown my sorrows in drink. Hmmm, a Screwdriver sounds tasty!
BTW, I live in Seismic So Cal, and screws for shear walls are A-OK. Just make sure you do the correct fastener pattern: At LEAST one ever 6 inches on the edges and at LEAST one every 12 inches on the inside verticals. Adding more fasteners than this will add more to the strength of the shear wall, but those are the minimums.
As for all those nailed up homes not falling apart... well if you look at all those homes damaged in the mudslides here, I bet you'll find they were built almost entirely with nails. See, if they were made from screws, they would hover in the air when the ground slipped out from under them, then angels would gently lower them to the ground. At least that's what I'm going to tell my building inspector when he asks why I want to use them ;>Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Duplex nails are much faster than screws....both installing and removing....never seen them galvanized, though.
"However, in this specific case you are advocating this person use nails so that he can develop a specific skill that will be useful if he continues doing large construction projects. If that's his aim, then great! End of discussion! But If he is just a handy DIYer, then he is loosing flexibility in how to accomplish or make changes and fixes in his project"That's what you said to Piffin which is a bunch of garbage. If a DIY'er asks a question on how to do something I wouldn't give him an answer so that he can develop a specific skill that that it will be useful if he continues doing large projects I would be giving him the right answer to the question and the right way to do something not wasting time screwing a house together. He's already going to be taking longer to do the project why tell him to use screws when they're not necessary and make his job more difficult.If he's willing to take on a project and ask a question on how to do it he should be taught the right way.So are you trying to say to all the Pro's out there that do this every day that when a DIY'er asks a question we have to give a DIY'er answers like from now on all Pro's tell DIY'er to screw the framing together because they might make a mistake and if they take it apart it can be taken apart a lot faster and easier and save the wood to reuse or should the Pro's just tell them the right way so that they can learn something and if they make a mistake that it's alright to make a mistake we all do and that's how we learn from our mistakes for his next project but at least they were shown the right way to to it.Maybe some day if the DIY'er is taught the right way he might like what he's doing after a few more of his projects and become a full time Contractor.As far as mudslides knocking down houses that were nailed and not knocking down a house that was screwed there might be some GOON some day that would believe that.Joe Carola
Edited 6/13/2005 12:51 am ET by Framer
Hey Paul,
Take a 3inch long exterior grade drywall type screw ( Grabberguard brand is excellent or something similiar) and sink this screw into a 2X4 until the head is flush and the rest of the screw shank is hanging out the other side of the 2X4. Now, drive a 12 or 16 penny nail about a foot down from where the screw is located...again, drive this nail until head is flush and rest of nail protrudes out the back side.
After doing that, take your hammer ( C'Mon Paul, even a DIYER can use a hammer a little bit) and whack the back side of that protruding screw several times. Unless you are a total wimp, that screw will break off. Try the same thing with the nail...guess what? The nail should BEND, but should not break.
That is the main difference between modern, drywall type screws and nails. In a sudden shear movement, the screws will shear off, but the nails simply bend. That is one of the main reason nails has always been perferred in framing situations where shearing forces can or are present. Also. nails are faster, especially when using a nail gun....heck, even hand nailing is faster than screwing...I can drive a 6 penny nail with just 2 hits ( 1 to set it, the other drives it home)...approx 2 seconds. It takes me at least a second or two longer to sink a 2 inch screw with my cordless.
However, I do like using screws too, and I use them a lot...but, I'm a home remodeler, and just like Piffen pointed out, screws are better in many remodeling instances where you try to minimize disturbing older work. But nails do still have their place...especially in new construction, and DIYER or not, if anyone is going to "dabble" in the carpentry field, I think one of the FIRST hand tools they should learn how to handle properly is a hammer. Personally, I perfer a 20 ounce, rip ( claw) hammer for everyday usage.
One more thing, I seriously doubt the man who is building his entire house out of screws is going to use screws to install all his interior trim casing; such as baseboards and door and window casing. Yes, he "could" use cabinet screws, but finish nails hold just as good, they don't split the wood, and they are easier to putty over.
Paul, there is a time and place for everything, there is usually more than one way to complete a job, and normally more than one tool is needed or used to accomplish this job. The more one is willing to learn and try, the better he will become in his trade or his hobby.
Just my 2 cents.
Davo
"Take a 3inch long exterior grade drywall type screw..."
Sooo, how does this test mimic real world conditions of a fastener? Whacking on the threads with a blunt metal object would be valid if that was what could happen in reality. However, when I use a screw, the threads are in the wood and the head and shank are the only parts that are possibly exposed. If the threads are exposed, then I used a too long screw and they SHOULD be whacked off so they don't catch on anything. Since only the head is exposed, you could make valid tests on that end. Hey, I did test that! You can read my results in the Nails Vs Screws thread.
Better yet, you do it and tell me I'm wrong. Get 2 2x4x14s, a strap hinge, 2 small pieces of 1/2 plywood, and 2 2.5" 8d nails of your choice and 2 coated Senco 2" screws. Attach the 2x4s edgewise with the strap hinge so you have a 2x8 that splits down the middle. Now mark a point 6" from the pivot and fasten the plywood to the boards, one fastener to each board. Now go to the unhinged end and holding down one board with your foot, lift the other away.
When I did a similar test, the nails easily seperated from the boards. The screws will not. I predict you will tear though your plywood before the screws budge.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
You say that the sheathing would pull itself apart befoer the screw pulled out... Hey, that's the same thing that happens when it is nailed or stapled, the way the inspector likes it. I have to agree, just because the code says it ok ok, does not mean that the inspector will like it, and not red tag it. Hard to argue with a red tag.I am a professional, I am young, (22) but have done this since I was 15, and am now out on my own.My Dad has never worked a day in his life as a carpenter, yet has done many remodeling and trim projects. With nails, because that is the way I and other professionals he knows have advised he do things. He has become very skilled with a hammer from his many projects, becaus he listened when people tried to help him understand how to do things. He seems to think that if thousands of people make a good living with nails, there must be a reason. And learning the skills needed to do it the right way has helped him tackle more and bigger projects.
Paul, although I've enjoyed your posts and questions here, I think you've taken this subject a little too personally. I think we were originally talking about fastening sheathing onto walls/roofs. Maybe the easiest way to explain it to you is this: It's sheathing!! We're not laying out plates or rake walls or irregular jack rafters. We're (hopefully) nailin' off some CDX. It's pretty hard to screw that up...I normally let some of my least experienced guys hang it, even though I'm in a coastal wind zone that far exceeds the nailing pattern for seismic zones, so quality counts.
Maybe another way of justification is this: The differnece in price between enough suitable nails vs. screws to do an average house would be enough to pay for the nail gun, and then you'd have the framer to use on future projects.
Do it however you wish! It's your project. Good luck to you either way. Just don't be so caught up in a single idea that you cannot see everyone else's reasoning here. There's a reason most here say nails are better. (Heck, actually I think staples are better than both!!)Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
You're right that nails in general have greater shear strength than screws. But screws hold much better against getting pulled out.
There's no reason that screws couldn't be made of better, less brittle material. In fact, some are, and have the code approvals that were provided by Bill. The big problem with screws for structural purposes is that there are gazillions of cheap brittle ones in the world, and how's the inspector to know the good ones from the crap with nothing but screw heads to look at?
In the real world, no fastener is really purely in shear, or purely in withdrawal. If shear forces act on a nailed connection, what happens first is that the wood around the nails at the interface between the two pieces starts to get crushed against the sides of the nails. This allows the nails to start to bend slightly into an "S" curve, which starts wedging the pieces apart. That puts the nails in withdrawal, the pieces move apart slightly, the nails bend more into an "S" curve, and the connection gets weaker as it continues to fail.
Non-brittle screws would probably fare better under those circumstances, but to really know, you'd have to make up several test pieces and destroy them in a press to get load versus displacement data.
The decision gets more complex than that. You have to look at cost effectiveness. Once you know the strength of the connections, you have to design connections of equal strength and compare their costs. Given the cost of time and the speed of pneumatic nailers, cost effectiveness will usually tip the decision in favor of nails.
Personally, I'm using 8d ring shanks in a Hitachi gun, 3" on the edges, 6" in the field, with adhesive. If I screw up -- when I screw up -- I have to either live with the mistake, or demo and discard more material. It's sort of a hidden cost of making it strong.
-- J.S.
OK Framer, I thought we were bantering back and forth with tongue in cheek - right now I'm not so sure. Your lack of "." tends to confuse me.
"He's already going to be taking longer to do the project why tell him to use screws when they're not necessary and make his job more difficult."
While not necessary, using screws could - in my experience doing renovation on my own house as he is - actually make his whole project easier... not the physical task of driving the fasteners.
"...he should be taught the right way"
Right for who though? If there was only The One True Way to attach sheet to board, they why did that company pay thousands to get their product tested and approved? You like nails and it's what you're great at. Not everyone is so set, and in this case using nails could have downsides. That is why I urge a specific code approved alternate way.
"So are you trying to say... but at least they were shown the right way to to it."
Ow. My eyes hurt from reading that mile long sentance without a punctuation break! But in a slightly incoherent way you raise a point I too was thinking about before I read you post. I'll address that in a different thread as it's off topic to this guys question.
"Maybe some day if the DIY'er is taught the right way he might like what he's doing after a few more of his projects and become a full time Contractor."
Yes, he may give up his job as a dentist, computer programmer, or police officer to become a full blown Contractor. Yep, I won't deny it could happen. But I don't think that will happen because he learned the Zen of Hammering Nails. It could happen because he will be able to take pride in his work, to admire his own craftsmanship, and the beauty of his own handywork. You are advocating a road covered in bent nails, I am suggesting a different more forgiving path that still leads to the same place.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
For years I've built with only screws. I have a background in theatre, where we used screws for everything - crappy drywall screws to boot! Well, after years of building the platforms I performed on, I've found better screws and never really learned how to use a hammer. Well, except to hang pictures and demolition, of course.
When I was posting to you before I was talking to you about a DIY'er thinking that you were a contractor without knowing what you did for a living and reading some of your posts and then reading what you wrote above in your other thread, I realized your not a Contractor after all, your a DIY'er and that's why you think that way.
You can screw all you want and be happy but as far as installing plywood I will always recommend nailing and I will always tell a DIY'er the same. So no hard feelings. I still Love You.........;-)
As far as critizing me about how I write which is something that I would never do to anyone on this forum, you should think about using Spell Check before you post. But I still Love You anyway......................
<!----><!---->Joe Carola
Thanks Joe. This is the first forum I've found that has Spellcheck - I keep forgetting to use it.
Oh, I found a few of these laying on my keyboard........ Just in case you need them later:)Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
" he learned the Zen of Hammering Nails."do you even OWN a hammer?Carpenmters don't "hammer" nails, they DRIVE them. Had to tell my newest helper the other day, " Quit with the love taps already, drive that damn thing home"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
This reminds me of an old Jamaican calipso
"......nail nail, ten penny nail, hit your 'ammer on a ten penny nail...."
Regarding your helper's struggle with his hammer, Governor Pete shared this line with us all a while back.....
"Why don't you hit it with your purse?"
Good line to keep in the back pocket next time your helper is whispering sweet nothings to the nail instead of drivin' 'er home.
As far as the rest of this thread goes......... I'm just shaking my head. Gotta love the pitbull attitude. "All you pro's are wrong.... I'm different". That's about the extent of his argument. Personally I don't care if he uses belly-button lint to attach his sheathing. Help the ones that want it, not the ones that need it.
But I'll end with the immortal words of the great Mike Smith...
"Hey.... whadda I know?"
Here in Massachusetts, the code reqires a nail. As an apprentice I was told that the reason for this is because we are still classified as a seizmic zone and in earthquakes, screws are proven to sheer and snap, as a nail will bend but it will not "fail"
I worked out in San Diego for a year, and screws on sheathing were forbidden for this reason as well.
When John Henry was a little baby
Just a sittin on his daddy's knee
He picked up a hammer and a little piece a steel
and he said,
"Hammerin's gonna be the death of me, Oh lord"
yeah he said, "Hammerin's gonna be the death of me"Well, John Henry hammered on de railroad
And them sweaty old black muscles did shine
While he outworked any two good men
the boss man said "John Henry's doin fine, Oh Lord"
Yeah he said, " John Henry's doing mighty fine"One day they brung a snortin' steam drill 'round
John henry looked over on that thing
"Now Before I'm a gonna let that beat me down
Gonna die with my hammer in my hand, Oh lord"
Gonna die with my hammer in my hand"So they set that steam drill on the right hand side
John Henry was on the left
While John Henry drove his fifteen feet
dat steam drill made only nine, Oh, Lord
Yeah, Dat steam drill made only nineJohn Henry Hammered on dat mountain
And his hammer was strikin' fire
Well, he drove so hard 'till he broke his poor heart
Den he laid down his hammer and he died, Oh lord
Yeah, He laid down his hammer and he died
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
the trim is gonna be "special" with all them honking trim head holes to fill.
http://frogstar.com/wav/displaywav.asp?fil=mp-fart.wav
To answer your question, no screws are probably not allowed. Since you mentioned it is for a shear wall with seismic requirements I'm betting that an inspector would not react favorably.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Take a look at this:
http://www.senco.com/pdf/fast_approv_codes.pdf
They are approved for decking and shear walls.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_files/ICBO-ES/6068.pdf
Thanks for posting that - I couldn't remember where I got that from, but that was what I was refering to earlier.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Is thats whats taking Magoo so long!!
Bear
I am in the process of putting sheathing on an outside wall that previously had none under the siding. Is it to code to attach with screws, ie 2" galvanized, or are nails required? This
of course includes what is now a shear wall in a cabin/house in Northern California.
welcome to the "new" Fine Homebuilding ...
where one DIY'er will argue to death with a handfull of Pro's that his way is best.
Good luck to ya ...
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
The flipside is:
Welcome to Fine Homebuilding - no new technology since 1964!
Hey, a pro knows whats fast, cheap, and simple and plans accordingly. A DIYer knows how to make mistakes and plans accordingly. JEFF, you've been an expert in your field for so long you've forgotten what it's like to go "Oh Crap" on four different occasions on one wall. But I do.
Oh, was I mistaken BTW? Does the code site not have approval for those particular fasteners in question? Have you talked to a California Residential Building Inspector, like I did thursday, about using screws in shear wall in seismic areas? I think someone dropped a piffen in your oatmeal, Mr. Grumpy Grump!
And I only argue with you because I respect what you have to say, so much so that I hope I can raise challenging questions or counter points. If I didn't think what you had to say was important, I'd never respond to your posts. Mr. Grumpy Grump.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
"The flipside is: blah blah blah...."
Case in point!
Feel free to let flow the wisdom of the ages ....
btw .. while yer's letting it flow ... start with the basics ... just how are nails and screws formed/manufacturered? Are drywall screws different than deck screws? If so .. who/why?
and ... most importantly ... exactly how does a CRX qualify as a sports car?
Jeff
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Coastalcabin, I'm sorry that I dragged in the fire of a different topic in here. The repies have gone away from the information you were seeking, and I am sorry that happened. I have given you all the information I have, and have made my case as best I know. Screws or nails, that's up to you. I'm going to stop replying in this thread unless you have something to ask me. Good luck on your project!
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
I am in Ca. (S.F. bay area) and have seen screwed shearwall fail inspection.
Pro's know the unwritten law- Don't mess with the inspector
If the prints say nails, use em.
I recently read that parts of Florida are requiring screwed-down roof sheathing for hurricane resistance.
IMHO, screws are better than nails for a shear wall. Currently building a shear wall with construction adhesive and screws.
I do not think the cheapo galvanized or drywall screws are a good choice for structural use, however, since their shear strength is poor. Should use better screws.
Edited 6/13/2005 12:07 pm ET by csnow
My right elbow really does not want me to use a hammer.
However, I see nothing wrong with glue and ring shank nails put in with an air nailer.
Beyond a certain point, the sheathing will come apart before the screws pull loose. If that happens, you spent too much money on the screws or not enough on the sheathing.