Pulling the trigger on buying a new tool is usually effortless for me. But this time….
I’m stuck.
For right around $450 – $480 I can get either a Bosch 10″, a Bosch 12″, or DW708 (older model). All dual bevel sliders.
I’m leaning towards the DW708 just because I see so many of them on sites that I figure they’ve got to be pretty darn good. I also like it because I’ve got a DW 10″ mitersaw and the fit, finish, durability and ergonomics of it are very very good. For the $180 or so I paid for that saw, I’d say it was a great value.
My concerns are with the 12″ blade. Is the deflection really that bad? I’ve got an LS1013 now and it’s been a pretty darn good saw. But I’m not so in love with it that I’d spend more money to buy another LS1013 than I could have one of these other saws for.
Another thing I like about the DW is the 60 degree miter capacity. That’d be really handy for trimming out gable rakes. But I’ve read some reviews on Amazon where guys are moaning about the blade not being square to the fence and having no way to adjust it. That doesn’t sound like much fun.
So that’s why I’m also looking at the Bosch saws. The 10″ because of the deflection issue and the 12″ because of some of the poor reviews I’ve read on the Dewalt. But then…. the Bosch saws all have their fair share of bad reviews too. But that up front bevel adjustment….. yummy.
I think I’ve read too many reviews. I’m stuck on the fence here and need to sh2t or get off the pot. Someone give me a push, would ya?
Edited 4/30/2006 8:33 pm ET by dieselpig
Replies
I believe most of the posts here have been negative about the 708, but pretty positive about the new 718.
They changed the position of the slide rails and apparently it made a difference.
Rats. That's a $200 difference. So that business about being irrepairably out of square is fairly common, huh?View Image
I have the 12 inch DW, and the 10 inch hitatchi scms with laser (dual bevel). It is my workhorse. Always accurate, and always true. The DW only comes out on crown jobs (it has built in stops). I honestly dont have on complaint about the hitachi.
I'm going to add to the confusion. This is a real sweetie.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CFKL3E/103-6879297-9165427?m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&s=hi&v=glance&vi=rebates&n=228013
12" Makita LS1214 for 436.09 with free shipping, 10% that off too? 3 something, incredible deal.
Special Offer: For a limited time, use promotional code TOOLS10R at checkout to save 10% on your total purchase of power and pneumatic tools from Amazon.com. This offer applies only to Amazon.com purchases made between April 25, 2006, and May 8, 2006. Applies only to products sold by Amazon.com. Does not apply to products sold by third-party merchants and other sellers through the Amazon.com site. Offer must be redeemed at our Web site, http://www.amazon.com. One use per customer. This offer may not be used in conjunction with any other promotional offers at Amazon.com.
Edited 4/30/2006 8:55 pm ET by MarkH
Edited 4/30/2006 8:59 pm ET by MarkH
There's a 1013 on Amazon for $482 (free shipping), on Tylertool for 479 + a $25 rebate (didn't check shipping cost). Amazon also has a 1214 for 436 (free shipping), if you're looking for a 12".
I had the chance to attend a 3-day Makita-sponsored training session at their Buford, GA plant a few years ago. I know I was getting a healthy dose of Makita propaganda, but I would choose their CMS or SCMS saws over DeWalt any day (and do have a Mak 12" CMS). Never tried Bosch, but I've heard good things about them.
One thing about the CMS saws that left an impression on me was the fit and finish of mating surfaces (such as the main bevel "joint", where the base meets the "arm" (Sorry I don't know the right term for that part). The Makita mating surfaces were all machined nicely, while the DW was much rougher. I personally clamped the DW bevel adjustment down as tight as I could, then did the same to the Makita. I then tried to move the bevel without loosening the lock. The Makita was locked solid, but the DW slipped without much of a struggle. Might not matter a lot in the field, but it just spoke to me of quality and attention to detail. This was a few years ago, so DW may have made changes by now.
I had just bought a PC circ saw before going to the training, and winced as I saw my saw stall out a good 3 feet before the comparable Makita model (in a test conducted by one of the participants, not a trainer)... Oh well, it still works well for me.
Thanks guys, but I dunno. I'm not totally blown away by my LS1013. I've had it for about three years now and it's been a nice enough saw but... in the past year or so I've had some problems with it. No matter how much I clean and lube it, I just can't keep it working smoothly... the rails, the miter swing, and the bevel all stick or get 'choppy'. The detents also have a good .5 to 1 degree slop to them now as well, including 0/90. If it weren't for the fact that for the past year it's felt like the wheels were coming of this thing, I'd get another one right away. That's why I was thinking of trying something new.View Image
Now I'm even more confused...... I guess the good news is that there seems to be a lot of good saws to choose from. It'll be tough to screw this decision up.... even for me.View Image
Here is the link for the Makita 12", cost you about 390 with free shipping and 10% discount.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002VB1XC/qid=1146444981/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/104-2272730-2601516?%5Fencoding=UTF8&s=hi&v=glance&n=228013
I have a Makita but a friend of mine who I work with many a weekend doing high end trim has a DW708, or should I say several. He loves it, and i have to admit that I kinnda like it. They just don't seem to hold up very well. Lots of adjusting and checking and they never seem to be perfect very long and they don't seem to last.
Diesel, I love my Hitachi 10" with laser, but...
I've used a lot of other guys' Dewalt 708. We have two or three on my current job at any one time. It's a workhorse. Heavy, and deflection is an issue, but mostly when trying to trim a 1/32" off a piece of hardwood--not something you'll be doing everyday. The guard seems to want to get stuck on a lot of them when they get older; I don't know what's up with that.
I haven't used the new Bosches, but...
I've seen Gary Katz and everyone else at JLC live use them and they seem like decent machines. I have the older style Bosch slider, single bevel. It's super tough.
The laser, dual bevel, and light weight make my Hitachi the first choice for the eight carpenters on my job right now. They'll walk by two Dewalts to get to my Hitachi. I don't know if it's tough enough for framing (I only bring it out for finish work), but look how good the old 8" Hitachis have held up. They're indestructable.
Don't know if I helped any or just confused the issue. I am one of the guys who pushed you to get the Dewalt worm drive, and look how that turned out.
Mike Maines
Diesel,
Have used them all they all have their merits. I own the DW 705 which I got the first year they came out (about 12 years ago), and it's still going strong. It's a great saw.
Then 3 months ago I finally bought a new slider the DW 718...and I can't say enough about it. Get a good Forrest blade, a 'Chopmaster', and you have probably the best setup going. There is absolutely no deflection with a Chopmaster. They're more than twice the price of a Freud but worth every cent. The 718 folds down to the size of a 705. The capacity of one of these tools is really wonderful.
Other saws I own are an Hitachi 10" comp, good for smaller work if I have to haul it upstairs, an old Delta Sawbuck which must be almost 25 years old but still very accurate...just too heavy. And then my first miter saw was a Millers Falls cast iron base with a 36" hand backsaw, I bought it new and it cost over $200 at the time.
I'm telling you bite the bullet and do the 718. The 708's are readily available because they're trying to unload them now as they are no longer made. They were good saws but had some deflection because of the over-under of the bars.
(whispering)...718
I just recently bought the Makita LS1013L, someone else posted a link to it, I really like it. That's a newer model, has a 15amp motor.
Not a big fan of the 12" saws because of the deflection issue and the cost of the blades. Hell I have 6 blades for my 10" sliders that cost me about $100 a pop and the thought of replacing all those blades for a 12" slider was more then I could stand!
Doug
Hey dieselpig, to add the the confusion, I have the Ridgid 12" SCMS and have had no problems with it.
I had heard a lot about the deflection issue with a 12" saw, but I've done a good bit of stain grade with it and have had no problems.
I bought it originally to cut some very tall cornice moulding 'cause I hate cutting crown or cornice on the flat. Just seems to waste a lot of time setting the mitre and bevel for each cut.
Another feature I like about the Ridgid is the large mitre scale -- I'm a little nearsighted and it's child's play to set it at exactly 1/2 degree increments.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
ya know i've had the hitachi 10" scms since they came out , i like the saw . but that fence really does need to be more solid and taller . so that being said my wife and were just walkin' round the depot for some plants for the front. and i end up in the tool corral looking at the dewalt. and that ridgid really sticks out i like the large , i mean large flat surface, and fence. miter scale is up to 65º both ways . double rails, every thing seems solid. with 599.00 price tag. the bosch tickles me , just for the all up front adjustments. the dewalt like the fence , and was told by a guy who works on tools that dewalt is the work horse out of the whole field. but that ridgid got me really interested, i just want to here about the performance after a year or two , and getting in and out of the truck/van. does it take bumps and dings. any input on that point . thanks .. k.." we judge ourselves by our motives, and others by their actions........."
Edited 5/2/2006 8:54 pm ET by alias
>>". . . that ridgid really sticks out . . . . i just want to here about the performance after a year or two , and getting in and out of the truck/van. does it take bumps and dings. any input on that point
I've had the Ridgid about 3 years. Performance is still exact to an exactly exact. I've turned out a lot of what I consider to be some really nice work without a lot of grief.
For bumps and dings, it may be the most expensive tool I own, so it does't get bumped or dinged. Seems pretty solid, and I've adjusted it twice since I've owned it (once when new and once again a couple months ago) and I want to keep it precise so it gets babied.
In and out of the truck is a huge PITA. It weighs a ton. It's big and awkward to carry. I recently got its matching stand with wheels, which also weighs a ton. So together it weighs, what, 2 tons. ;-)
But I still think it's worth it. I can measure an angle with a protractor, dial in 1/2 the angle on the mitre scale without using a microscope, make the cuts and the pieces almost stick together from the surface tension. ;-)
Doing some pre-finished flooring, there was no mark whatsoever -- the ends looked like they were cleaved with a giant razor, even on pieces that had to be cut at odd angles.
So I guess you can tell I like it. ;-)
A buddy who specializes in restoration of antique picture frames (especially big ones built up of lots of pieces which he also replicates) swears by his Bosch, but I've never used it.
I have no complaints about the Ridgid.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
thanks - it's been bumped up quite abit .. stay safe ...k.." we judge ourselves by our motives, and others by their actions........."
"But I still think it's worth it. I can measure an angle with a protractor, dial in 1/2 the angle on the mitre scale without using a microscope, make the cuts and the pieces almost stick together from the surface tension. ;-)"
Wow!
They should send ya a free one just for writting that great ad copy.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
>>"They should send ya a free one just for writting that great ad copy.
Works for me. How ya think I could make that happen? ;-)
But seriously, I do like it. I can't compare it to similarly expensive tools (haven't tried the others mentioned), but I have a 10" Delta that I can actually lift by myself that more frequently travels with me, and using it now feels like going back to the stone age. Maybe it just needs a new blade? ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
"Is the deflection really that bad?"
Nope. Not at all.
I don't have the 708 ... but a buddy I trade work with often does ... I've used his a ton over the last coupla years. It's a great saw.
I've also had the chance to work around most of the competitors ... I still prefer the 708. From what I've heard/read ... I'll probably have the newer version by years end though.
Unless ... I stand there ... and price them side by side ... I just might buy the cheaper/older version that's trimmed so well for me on his jobs.
Have used it mostly for trim ... kitchen installs ... but we've also done some bigger/rough framing with it ... works just as well there.
Maybe everyone with the deflection problems can't adjust it out of the box and forget to throw on a sharp blade every now and then?
for some reason ... I'm no fan of the Bosch's ... I like most bosch tools ... but just don't like the mechanivs of the miter saws ... they always feel cheap to me. Can't put a finger on it ... but I'd never consider buying one at any reasonable price.
try our favorite place .. amazon ... see if the DW is in the recond bin. I know I just saw one recond'd somewhere on the net.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
The 708 is the one I'm leaning towards Jeff... that's the older 12", not the brand new 718. That's a lot of saw for $449.00. They were still close to $600 about a year ago, right? Now the 718, is a beauty.... no doubt. But is it $200 prettier than the 708? I'm not sure that it is.
FWIW, this saw will only be used for trim. It'll replace the LS1013 which we've only used for trim for the past three years... but is now about to get fed to the lions. To give credit where credit is due, I've never, not even once, had to make an adjustment on that 1013 in the three years I've owned it. But the slop is sooooo aggravating as well as the stick action.View Image
Try cleaning the rails good and applying silicone or teflon lube on them for the sticktion prob.
Sorry for not responding to everyone sooner. Just got my head wrapped up in the work week and not much time for BT this time of year.
But I really do appreciate everyone sharing their experience and insights regarding all these saws. But I have to say..... I think I'm more confused about what to do than I was when I got here..... if that's even possible.
I didn't even consider Hitachi, but now it sounds like I need to get my hands on one and cop a feel. While I love Hitachi nailers, I've never been very impressed with their power tools overall. But then again I had one of the little 8" sliders forever and it was a good little saw.
So, what I think is really in order is a trip up to the tool store on Saturday. I think the 'right' thing to do is feel 'em all up again and buy based on what's most comfortable. It seems like I can have pretty much whatever I want (other than the new DW718) for right around the same $$. So it probably makes sense to just let my hands make the decision.
Thanks dudes.View Image
Just saw the DW 718 at HD today for $524 after rebate. Just lettin' ya know.
great ... ya made me look.
just had too ... didn't ya!
View Image
I've had my eye on one of these for about a year or so! Down to $315 ... that's an amazing price.
U bastard ... so much for a good nites sleep now ...
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
To me the biggest difference with the 718 is the side-by-side rails (like the Hitachi) rather than the over/under on the 708. IIRC, they made the change to improve rigidity & accuracy / repeatability.
I've been very happy with my 708, but it's been giving me problems lately - square when cut from the left of the blade but not from the right - very wierd.
I do have a Forrest Chopmaster, and can shave the slightest bit off a piece of trim with no problems (other than the new thing mentioned above).
Decisions, decisions... enjoy!
Diesel,
No problems with the 12" Bosch. Love the trac- rac stand I purchased with it. Heavier than my 10" Milw, but not as awkward to carry. The only complaint ( ok ,three complaints) is the dust, everything shoots out 3" under the bag, and it catches next to nothing. Oh yes, the laser is useless in the sunlight, but I am pretty sure they all are. And I didn,t like the blade that came with it , 60t Bosch. Replaced it with a 90t Diablo, cuts great/ with less noise. No problems, just complaints..: )
Northeastvt
Another 2¢, I've got both the 12" DeWalt sliders. Old one's great, new one's greater...just got a flyer from HD...they're giving out a $125 gift card with the the new one...makes the price a little better, dang it. I need a dump truck, baby, to unload my head
Another vote FWIW for the 708. I tend to semi baby mine but have had it for a few years and never a lick of trouble...
Edited 5/1/2006 8:15 am ET by PaulBinCT
I'm no fan of DW, have but a couple of their sanders and a right angle drill, all bought as clearance offers to good to refuse. I do have the 708 SCMS and have used it from trim to framing and can't seem to knock it out of true.Truth be told, first tile job, I raised the bed of the DW 708 with 2x's and installed a small diamond blade to cut tile. Even survived that. Sure is a beast lifting it into and out of the trailer though.Let's not confuse the issue with facts!
Please consider the Hitachi dual bevel 10-incher. About $466 from Amazon, including shipping for free. I know you have an issue with the big A, but I believe this one ships directly from their ToolCrib warehouse.
A ten-inch saw is easier to transport than a 12-incher, saves money versus the 12 on blades and resharpening, and will make most all cuts required in framing walls and roofs. Less blade wobble, too, if you get into the finer work inside.
This one has a rugged proven design. Miters 45 left and 57 right. Check their specs for cut capacities at the limits.
We begin a frameup tomorrow morning with one of these mounted on an AD&E Sawhelper stand with a 9'6" left table and 5' right, sliding stop for repeaters, and two fixed scales on each table, one for the stop, and the other scale for eyeballing one-time cuts. You can eyeball to easy 1/16" length accuracy, fine for framing, and a real timesaver. Leave the pencil and tape in your bags.
View Image
Edited 5/1/2006 12:23 am ET by Gene_Davis
I have the new Bosch 12" and I'm very happy with it. I leave it set up at the site and all the other finish carps are very happy to use it, too. It's gotten a thumbs up from everyone using it. It's solid and the up front controls are great for when you are constantly adjusting bevel and miter, like you do in trim work. Blade deflection isn't a problem for me since I cut more with the slide than the chop motion when beveling.
Have you looked into Milwaukee? They are a good heavy duty saw for average money.They aren't duel beveling but I have found that you can work around this. For thirty bucks Irwin sells an aftermarket laser that replaces your outside washer,just bought one and it works pretty good.
Check out this link.
http://www.mytoolstore.com/milwauke/6497-6.html
I know what your feeling like. I get it all the time. I call it pre buyers remorse.
So here's the cure-get one of each brand, cures the indecision.
And just call it a tool test. Or I've got a nice saw buck in the shed.
Plus it's only got 400,000 miles on it.
I do dislike that reach back over the 1013 to adjust/move bevel.
Like you, I was impressed with the 718, then with the price of the 708, so I bought it. I must say, its a lot of saw. WHile I do more woodworking than construction, I love the capacity of it. If you make a table of 2x laid flat, it will cut of 14 inches. Have cut from both side of a 24 inch panel. Almost like having a table saw there. While I can't speak for durability, only having it two months, out of the box its great. Can't wait to frame in my new kitchen. Happy shopping
Farmsome
I bought a 708 when they first came out. I've given it hell, have not noticed the deflection problem. I often use it to cut copper gutter.
Its never too late to be up to date.
http://grantlogan.net/
I like this one...
...how much you give me for it??
knowledge without experience is just information.... Mark Twain
Politicians, like diapers, need to be changed often...and for the same reason. (bumber sticker)
http://www.cobrajem.com
No suggestions on a saw but check these guys for some deals. If your interested in the 10" bosch, they have it for $426 with free impact wrench. It probably isn't the laser version but I don't know how effective that would be for you outside.
http://www.heavydutytools.net/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=349
Diesel, my 708 is great. The only deflection problems I have is if the blade is dull. If I have a good blade on, I can "take half a blade" no problem.
Half a blade? You must be a framer! ;-)
Depends on what day it is. Truth is that saw gets used for everything from crown moulding to PVC drain pipes. The problem is, is that I always remember to take the good finish blade off after I hit a nail in an old piece of wood.