I hooked up with JLC recently and posted a thread with similar info and request for advise as “Hotel Build”.
I felt comfortable on BT using “I ain’t skered”, but on JLC I was only comfortable with “I am confident”
I realize I am the new kid on the block, but what other factors do you think is affecting my comfort level?
What do you think of JLC Online forum?
Replies
"What do you think of JLC Online forum? "
Totally different culture.
not one forum, but multiple forums, some with moderators, some not.
If you are not a "pro" they'll drive you off on some of the forums, if you ask intelligently some will answer you.
the traffic there is far less than here. ( edit: you posted there at 8+am, no response, here 9+am and already a response.)
a number of BTesr are there, and a number of former BTers are there. recognize names over there.
I go ever there, but usually as a lurker, although I'm registered (been a subscriber since the 80's, when it was printed tabloid style on newsprint)
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG
Edited 2/7/2007 9:52 am ET by bobl
I personally am a more avid user of JLC than Bt. I think it may be only slightly more formal. Your Hotel Question as posed over on JLC will probably suffer and die with less then 15 posts. Most of the guys over there are not commercial builders and even less with hotel experience.
The more unique thing between JLC and Bt is that in Break time people feel o.k. with posting an opinion about things they are totaly unqualified to discuss. I think a lawyer or a gardener is just as likely to help you diagnose a plumbing leak on Bt but at JLC you are most likely to get a little vague advice and be told to call a plumber.
The benefit to JLC is you can be slightly more sure of the advice you receive.
The benefit to Bt is that you can discuss somthing ill advised and yet possibly work out a plan accomplish you goal.
Homeowners, architects, gardners, and lawyers are just as welcome here and you get a little more outside the box responses to your construction problems.
Many people from JLC frequent here especially when things are slow there. So I think you can feel accepted and welcome there.
Jason
By the way if I come off as condesending I don't mean too. Free advice is great anywhere you can get it and many of the posters here are pretty impressive.
Edited 2/7/2007 1:31 pm ET by Jason99
in Break time people feel o.k. with posting an opinion about things they are totaly unqualified to discuss.
how dare you describe me so accurately in public. you sir are now my sworn enemy, and if it is the last thing i ever do i will get even with you!
great post jason, thats the hardest i laughed in a long time, and a great thread by txlandlord as well, it has caused me to have a little more insight.
the reason i like this place is that i am not a typical contractor or construction worker. i am a misfit to a degree, i did not follow the typical path throughout my career, (which i thought was supposed to lead to greater success not failure) and am certainly not in what i think most would consider to be in a typical place right now.
i am trying to be normal, i really am, but until i get there at least i have breaktime. thank you both, there is something special about this place.
"i am trying to be normal, i really am, but until i get there at least i have breaktime"Now I'm laughing my butt off!Make that your tag line and help others laugh!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
well thank you sir, i think. you see a big part of this is true, and in that respect its really not funny.
on most construction sites most of the people there will "fit in" and i do not. it has caused me and my family financial and emotional difficulty, now its not all bad, but many times i have tried to fit in as well as do excellent work.
the story of my life is that i am kept on because of the excellent work i do when the work needs to get done, but i am laid off when things are slow because i just don't fit in. i think differently, maybe just to much. that overthinking or out of the box thinking singles me out, and to some degree i have been trying to hide it since about 7th grade.
many times i have tried to "be normal" with varying degrees of success. i am very good at laughing at myself however, so being the way i am does have some benefits.
the people that i call friends appreciate my "difference", and for some people thats why they like me.
You'll fit right in here then. There's not much of the normal or usual here.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
swegundo
jail time meaning been given a time out from allowing to post here in BT. Some people have either used offensive language or have gotten into far too heated a discussion that became more than just discussions. Some people were really just asking for it and some it was just a slip of the tongue. Some have posted pictures that were considered too risque blah blah blah..nothing earth shattering.
I wouldn't worry about fitting in or not if I were you...after all they let me stay here (so far). Trust me...you're probably pretty mild compared to a lot of the ******'s here. Am I allowed to say ******'s? Apparently so...WOW,cool!
LOL
Greek poet Archilochus said: "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing"! From The Hedgehog & The Fox ~~~~ An essay on Tolstoy's view of history ~~ by Isaiah Berlin
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Well, let me buy you a round of whatever it is you are drinking!I think I'll try one too!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
yPU SAID "BUTT"
fORREST
uMMMM
ON MY SECIOND QUART DRINK NIOW
wHAT WAS i DATYONMG?
FORREST - HEY - DIDN'T MISSPELL IT!
I say "quart" only because I usually drink anythiong from 32 oz Stonyfield yogurt containers - short, capacious, and not tippy.
Forrest - i typed capacio8us!
LMAO!
How'd you get Piffin's keyboard?
Or is that Sphere's?zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Same 80 proof keyboard, just gets passed around._______________________________________________________________
'That's all I've got to say about that' - Forrest Gump
JLC also misses out on some great contributions from those with careers outside of construction. When a topic comes up that's related to a construction problem, but not a construction topic per se it's very interesting to hear expert opinions from across the fence.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
One of my favorite thread shere was one I started years ago asking people what they did in the real world.I was amazed to see that thread run for hundreds of posts and bring a lot of lurkers out from behinf the virtual bushes. The magazine attracts a lot of high end people who are interested in their hoimes omn a hobby level or aas DIYs or just wanting good solid info to let them interact with their contractors intelligently. There are a lot of doctors, lawyers, rocket designers, and other professionals, and brainy people reading this forum, and they sometimes chip in
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It's quite humbling to think of the impact all the lookers and talkers at BT have had on the world, both construction related and non.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Yep,
Like my Mother used to say .. "be careful what you share.. little children may be listening."
Hey!..I heard that.....
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
The secret to a long life is knowing when its time to go. M. Shocked
Dont think I'd post some of the cheap shed queries over at JLC, (or on HVAC-talk) unless trying to get somebody's hackles up.
I participate in both forums but JLC is truly a peer-to-peer construction group and self-policed as such. It's not for the thin-skinned as the regulars on JLC will be pretty unforgiving if Joe home-owner asks a DIY question. The forum rules and regs are very clear about who should be actively participating.
Once you get past the 'new guy' hurdles there's the same comraderie (sp?) and community among the regulars over there as there is over here.
I enjoy both forums but they're very different animals - as are the magazines themselves. JLC readers will go to a construction show to learn about new building techniques and business tools (and shop tools) - FHB readers are probably more likely go to the home show. That's my observation anyway.
-Norm
Agreed.JLC is more business with minimal chat and anti-DIY.FHB is much more social and pro-DIY.
I prefer JLC content-wise to Breaktime. As another poster said, you're more likely to get advice from someone who has actually done what you're asking about, as opposed to someone who has just thought about it.
I view BT as more of the artisan side of things, whereas JLC is the business side of our profession.
I do prefer JLC, but have not been there since Christmas. I was away from the computer for a week, and incredibly busy for a few weeks after the holidays so I got behind on my reading there. I have been putting off going back because I know once I log back on, I will have to spend a lot of time catching up on threads I've missed. That's my biggest complaint about the forum- they don't have a good message management system.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
From a business point of view as far as the diversity, general quality, and tenor of the discussions my vote goes to BreakTime.
I think the big problem with JLC is there is a plurality of folks over there who devote way too much of their time to being the "forum police" rather than ever really contributing something worthwhile. Rather than looking at and dealing with the content of the topic or question most folks there are more concerned with #1 are you a professional contractor or a DIY and #2 have you properly filled out your profile. I mean come on, a newcomer posts a question there and a pile of GUYs is all over him saying "without the information from your profile we can't answer your question". The newcomer then fills out his profile and makes a post telling everyone his location and background and none of the people who told him they would answer his question then ever take the time or thought to answer it. (Well that may be a gross exaggeration but not by much).
The other standard pat answer there is "Do a search on this subject and you'll find it's been cussed and discussed quite a bit" which while it does occur here does not appear quite as often and at least here the stronger forum power users use the search and post links to those past discussions the poster would find relevant.
I do however agree with Jon that the message management ( the forum software) here is much better than it is over on JLC and that makes reading what's new and searching so much better here.
But that said I spend almost as much time there as I do here. I think the business people here and over there that don't ever venture out into the other forums to expand their experiences and point of views are naive and cheating themselves.
It's like different restaurants and bar have different cultures and provide you with very different experiences. Hell I even go over to ContractorTalk too. Talk about culture shock! I read the stuff there and I think are these folks even in the same business I'm in?
View Image
>> Rather than looking at and dealing with the content of the topic or question most folks there are more concerned with #1 are you a professional contractor or a DIY and #2 have you properly filled out your profile. I mean come on, a newcomer posts a question there and a pile of GUYs is all over him saying "without the information from your profile we can't answer your question". The newcomer then fills out his profile and makes a post telling everyone his location and background and none of the people who told him they would answer his question then ever take the time or thought to answer it. <<Jerrald,Agreed 100%.Now Txlandlord was asked to give out his first name on his hotel question. Is that now a requirement since filling out your profile isn't?Joe Carola
Joe Carola - "Agreed 100%.
Now Txlandlord was asked to give out his first name on his hotel question. Is that now a requirement since filling out your profile isn't?"
Yeah that a good example of where the problems over there start. While guys like you and I and lot of others have our names in our forum IDs what so important about a first name. I have no problem referring to Txlandlord as Txlandlord or Tex if I want too, or even calling you Framer. What's the big deal?
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>> or even calling you Framer. What's the big deal? <<Jerrald,I've been called a lot worse from my wife................;-)Joe Carola
I've called you a lot worse. . . . ;-)
LOL, Joe, some people call him Joe!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I am a long time DIY lurker on both sites (and a few other building sites...ocassional poster on BT.I agree that JLC is more "professional." But I like BT x 10. The diverse "non-pro" prospectives may be off base, but they are as likely to offer creative, "non coventional" building solutions might, darn it, be right for the situation in question.Even Trade Talk seems boring by comparison. And the electric forum, which should have great potential, is still trying to recover from that very knowledgeable but sometimes obnoxious Joe. However, can't help but feel a little sorry for him, as an unpaid moderator, the way he got drummed out. Think he's hanging at Contractor Talk now.ToddEdit: Hope "Joe" here isn't Joe T!
Edited 2/8/2007 4:27 pm ET by todd
And the electric forum, which should have great potential
Huh huh huh.....that's funny- "electrical forum"....."potential".........huh huh huh........
Bob
Edited 2/8/2007 6:36 pm ET by BobKovacs
You guys are hitting the nail on the head. The problem is their are far less posters on JLC and the harda**es are a vocal minority. I still don't think anyone should feel intimidated, I realy enjoy reading txlandlords perspective here and was happy to see him jump in at JLC.
Jason
"The problem is their are far less posters on JLC and the harda**es are a vocal minority. I still don't think anyone should feel intimidated,"I learned in high school how not to get intimidated so 35 years later I'm not the type to get all weak-kneed in an on-lone forum, but I think I'm one example of why there are fewer posteers posting at the JLC forums.I do get more out of their magazine than from FHB, and go to the trade show every 2-3 years, but I have been slapped around and chastised too many times over there to find it an enjoyable experience, so why bother unless I really need something from there. They do have diofferent forums where some moderators are great guys and others where they suck. That makes a diff too.That, and with my dial-up connection and the way things work with their software, JLC is a lot slower making it harder for me to participate anyway
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yes, why be intimidated when you know what you are doing? I invite input from others, nasty folks should just be ignored. The nasty folks are probably those who have not learned that they do not know it all.
Hell I even go over to ContractorTalk too. Talk about culture shock! I read the stuff there and I think are these folks even in the same business I'm in? <<<<<<<<<<<I have a few dozen posts over there or so...worst building site on the web IMO. I'm bored there in five minutes...literally.
JLC is "too" business...no sense of humor over there whatsoever and to me thats nothing to be proud of although you can find Sonny Lycos over there...LOL.
Far as BT goes...I'm starting to wonder whats going to happen over here with all the people that have done jail time recently. What does that mean actually? I'm really starting to wonder how far it'll go. Hopefully things won't get much worse but ya never know.
Greek poet Archilochus said: "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing"! From The Hedgehog & The Fox ~~~~ An essay on Tolstoy's view of history ~~ by Isaiah Berlin
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
No sense of humor over at JLC??? I resent that remark! lol
I may be slightly jaded since I moderate one of the forums there and also write for the magazine, but I find JLC to be much better on business topics. Here at BT, we're lucky to have one or two new business topics a week, and invariably, as least one of them will be a "how much per SF should I charge?" question.
BT to me is more of a hangout, and as already mentioned by someone else, you have to be cautious if you're looking for reliable info because anyone and everyone is willing to chime in- even on topics they haven't a clue about. I guess that's the risk of seeking advice on an anonymous internet forum, but some folks ain't quite bright 'nuf to realize that.
And as mentioned already, ContractorTalk is downright scary. I head over there more for amusement than anything else, but even when I try to honestly help, it seems to fall on deaf ears. The painting forum has to lead the pack in "how much should I charge" questions over there- I guess it's just too easy to become a painter when you get laid off at the auto plant.........
Bob
I,m not allowed over there, they ran me off. said I did not know anything about concrete. I guess they are right..
Hey Bob...that "was" one of my comments about JLC...that they're business...too business if thats possible. I suppose what I mean by that is...say for instance you have a great idea but no idea how to market that idea. Thats happened to me a few times to say the least. I have zero formal business background...matter of fact I never even graduated HS...I was bored...lol. What I know, I've learned on my own because of my curiosity and passions. so anyway...I have a real good idea right? I go to Barnes and Noble because I figure I need to learn a lil' sumpin' bout' business.
I start scouring the biz section only to be scared away after looking through dozens of biz books.
Ok...so I don't give up. I want to see if I can develope an idea I had so I go back again and decided to pick up a book that has the most interesting cover...lol.. I see, "Jump Start Your Brain" by a guy named Doug Hall. I buy the book willy nilly (<--did I just say that). I found the book fascinating in the sense that the guy had a great sense of humor and he was interesting. Specially' for a novice like me...that in turn had me reading other "less scary" business books and voila' the wheels were in motion. I was rally into it. I read several others...some I liked a lot some not. Rich Dad I thought was real good...triggered more thoughts...then Jerrald recently turned me onto Jim Collins work and that really stirred me up...
Thats the differance I think between the JLC site and BT...if you get my drift. I think this place has a lot to offer newbies as well as old timers because of its diversity and openess and sense of humor where as JLC..."to me" is kinda stuffy...not that it doesn't have it place..at all! That Contractor Talk on the other hand...well, its almost harmful to a newbie IMO. Sooooooooooo lame!!
I think all things need diversity and so far BT has been the only site I've seen with all of that...sad but true.
Be well bro
andy...
Greek poet Archilochus said: "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing"! From The Hedgehog & The Fox ~~~~ An essay on Tolstoy's view of history ~~ by Isaiah Berlin
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
"BT to me is more of a hangout, and as already mentioned by someone else, you have to be cautious if you're looking for reliable info because anyone and everyone is willing to chime in- even on topics they haven't a clue about."It is a relaxation place to hang and that is why real contractors CAN be found here to help the DIYs with stuff. In so many other forums like Bob Villa's, there is too much of DIYs helping DIYs, and in JLC the DIYs are shown the door...
So BT is a really good balance for alll. And fun too.At least here most of the time when some body posts something off the wall, they will get corrected fairly soon.But there are times ----I sometimes see a thread that already has 10-20 posts and think, not sense in looking at that one 'cause they surely have an answer already by now...but then I look out of boredom and find a bunch of chit chat or downright bad advice....You are right about needing the gift of discernment.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You are right about needing the gift of discernment.
there's something to be said of experience. "This worked for me" (once). vs. "this failed several times" or "isn't worth the effort."A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Yeah, No matter what the forum is, I always get skeptical when I read, "When we built back in 19..."
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I always get skeptical when I read, "When we built back in 19..."
I've got pleanty of experience. We used to carry our tools in a donkey drawn cart, start at 6 AM one day and get off the next day 6:30 AM, 30 mintues after we had started a new day.
We used hand saws, dorve nals with a hammer and cut rafters that looked right, not to some kinda fan dangled mathmatical pitch ratio.
Yep, it looks close to these drawings and looks good from the street. I like it, and if I didn't, you can't see it from my house.
Permit? What is a permit and why do we need one?
Edited 2/8/2007 3:30 pm ET by txlandlord
jail time? what is going on?
are you describing bans for personal attacks (verbally and online of course)? i have heard that people were banned for saying the wrong things in their posts, and am curious about what was said. i have picked up little pieces here and there but no one will talk about it in the open it seems, or do i need to do a search for threads with the word "ban" in it.
i have participated in chat rooms in other forums (does napster count as a forum?) and in some of them it seems to be a game that you team up with some and make enemies of others and once battle lines are drawn.....but its just a game, the fun part being how clever you can get with inuendo so you don't get the boot. i have to say i got bored pretty quick, but i had to babysit the downloads. (dialup)
What I enjoy most about both JLC and BT are the "pockets" of quality information. Like a gold vein, you have to search in the right locations for the nuggets, and not all are in the same place.
My first trip to JLC was a bit disapointing with almost zero response to a ligitamate question. As a newbie I couldn't appreciate how some forums simply don't answer questions that have recently been asked, or that seem rather ordinary. Fewer posts, but just as many good minds that will at least read the question.
Also, if the question is fully answered with two responses, it's unlikely to get a third at JLC, while BT'ers love at least saying, "Me to," or, "what he said."
Cheers.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Except for Gary Katz's contributions in the JLC forum folder on trim carpentry, I find most of the stuff over there sounding like lunchbox chatter. They sure can beat some roof cutting math issues to death.
For some really interesting tech stuff, I've been loafing around over at Dan Holohan's "The Wall" at heatinghelp.com. Serious pros discussing some interesting and complex electromechanical systems.
The house my partner and I are planning will have its heating done by hot water, using an LP fired modulating condensing boiler, some zones infloor, some not, and I have gotten some really good advice there.
Guess I just didn't spend enough time there for it to feel "friendly". I figured, once I'd written a little piece and had pictures of my wounded arm posted in the mag, I'd be in like Flynn, but just never felt that good 'ol comraderie I get here.
Plus, who's got the time for TWO forums?
Forrest
I've bounced over to JLC once or twice, registered there, even subscribed the mag for a couple years. Since I'm not "in the trades" full time, though I have a close association with them being a civil engineer, it's not the same and I don't feel I get very much out of the forum over there. I guess if you have to categorize me - I spent just over a decade working in the trades, from labor to framing to finish carpentry and everything in between, and in the seven years since then, have remodeled one house, built one house, and a couple "sheds". But I still think of myself as a DIY, because construction is not my day-to-day.
That said, I much prefer BT, I feel like I know some of you guys (in a couple cases, I do) and I'll only lurk and pull random info out of JLC when I have the time to go there.
It seems, from my first impressions, that most here at BT are correct in their evaluation.
It seems to me like two places my wife and I go to enjoy music and dance.
Which do you think fits the following:
One is a hole in the wall rhythum and blues joint, called The Big Easy. The interior and exterior still showing evidence of colors used in the 60s and 70s. The crowd contains all types, mostly bikers, punks, cowboys, rednecks, junkies and an occasional business man. No food, but a small Dominos Pizza next door. Tom, the long haired sunglasses at night owner does not mind you bringing in pizza. Live blues, rhythum and blues and blues rock most every night.
The other is in the Saint Regis Hotel and called the Remington. It is in one of the wealthiest area of Houston, and very formal. Mahogany dark stained block paneling, uniformed wait staff, businees men and women most dressed in suits and nice clothes, valet parking, $15.00 gormet hamburgers and other fancier food, with jazz, rock and roll, Motown, and rhythum and blues live music.
Choosing the hillbilly, cowboys, redneck, retired pot smoking hippie junkie frame carpenter route in life and now a builder (who has straightened up as much as possible), I prefer The Big Easy, but the wife prefers The Remington. So, we compromise and go to The Remington. NOTE: I finally stratghtened up enought to afford a new motorcylce.
I am still pretty stupid and undisciplined as is evidenced by my work load today and what the time and BS I choose to post here. I truly enjoy BT to the point of addiction. My old addictions have been replaced by new ones.
As the kids say...... Peace out...... BT Superfriends
<<NOTE: I finally stratghtened up enought to afford a new motorcylce.I am still pretty stupid and undisciplined as is evidenced by my work load today and what the time and BS I choose to post here. I truly enjoy BT to the point of addiction. My old addictions have been replaced by new ones. >>OK, I'm starting to feel like I might really fit in here . . . when do I get the new bike? <G>
when do I get the new bike? <G>
Add it as a line item in your next project.
It would appear that I need to write in larger contingencies. Let's see, I could go find a blown up Shovel for about 6K, new S&S motor, about $6,500, tires, odds and ends, well, come to think of it, if a guy could save 5% on a $250,000 bid . . . Not bad. <G>
Add 5% to each phase cost and 5% to your P & O line.
$250,000.00 project = $25,000.00.
Tell the client that you will allow 10% retainage. Finish the project successfully and the money for a new Fatboy will be there waiting. $25,000 would allow you some accesories.
Edited 2/13/2007 5:15 pm ET by txlandlord
LOL, You guys keep going and pretty soon you'll graduate to doing govt work!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
We could be government contractors / vendors, charging $4,382.39 for typical 16oz claw hammers.
I go to JLC once in a while, sometimes they have good topics on their forums. I like their tool review section, seperate from the forum.
But holy crap can they beat a math problem to death, my tape measure doesn't have decimal points. Seems like all of theirs do.
I think BT is much more laid back, and I enjoy the points of view from people outside of the trades. I lurk on JLC, and Contractor Talk, but not much anymore. (Cuts into my BT viewing!)
Seems to me the personalities show through a bit more here, and I find that more appealing.
Bowz
As far as the manuel side, JLC is a better forum. It is much more technical.
Tim, if you mean by "technical" that roof cutting math gets beat to death over there, I agree. Otherwise, not.
Hey, but I'm not a professional, and they haven't kicked me off yet! ;-)
My favorite sites for real solid how-to detail by pros are True32 (frameless cabinetmaking, design, installation), JohnBridge (all things tile), Woodweb (cabinetmaking, built-ins, veneering, stairbuilding), and HeatingHelp (hot water and steam heating). The crusty fusties over at JLC are pure entertainment.
I see that Gary Katz, otherwise a great guy, had to reinforce the "pros only" edict at the JLC trim carpentry forum. Guess some of those pesky DIYers showed up and insulted the regulars with stupid questions about crown molding again (yawn.)
Framing wise, you have a lot more in depth discussions about real life framing problems at JLC than here. At JLC, they discuss the backing bevel or a sleeper in a valley; at BT, you have someone asking if they take out 17' of bearing wall, do I need three 2x10's or will two work?I visit JLC specifically for four forums. Estimating, Computers, Accounting, and Business Strategies. The content and advice is always top notch and relevant. The moderators on the pro forums are very helpful, especially Joe Stoddard (no offense to Bob)."I see that Gary Katz, otherwise a great guy, had to reinforce the "pros only" edict at the JLC trim carpentry forum. Guess some of those pesky DIYers showed up and insulted the regulars with stupid questions about crown molding again (yawn.)"Like I said earlier, I haven't shown my face in a month, but Gary Katz was one of the more reserved of the forum police. Some guys there (even some that you know from here) take it way too far.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Geez, Bob, I didn't realize you were so unhappy with the JLC scene. You sure do have quite a few open threads over there...
It's the entertainment factor, David. Those guys went crazy over the ACQ thing, and I got a lot of grins over the one about figuring a rafter cut knowing where the plate and ridge is.
There does happen to be a guy over there, pretty ICF-smart, who does not frequent here. I got some good infomation from him about doing a chamfered window opening.
I think there are more heavy hitters over there, guys with deep knowledge that can really benefit other tradesmen and businessmen. Even though the traffic is lower there's more information density, at least for me. If I had to pick one, it'd be JLC.
There are some guys here who make this place essential, but overall the s/n ratio is too low. The BT software is much, much smarter.
So... you make time to use both sites.
Gene,
It seesm clear that you don't understand what the "pro" designation means. It isn't about big names like Gary being "pro" and every one else not being one. Is a pro someone who has been published? Teaches at a trade show? Authored a book?
By technical I mean that if I have a framing question, check the archives, I can get it answered by framers. Or when I have a building science question, I can ask and get answered by Bill or by an architect, etc.
You beat the roof framing math thing to death. You make snide comments, intentionally or not, on both forums. Let me ask you a question, what do those comments add to either forum? Nothing. So let's stop making them ok? You'd be surprised at how many emails I get about roof framing. You know why? Because there are guys who want to learn. Why is that a bad thing?
FHB has become a DIY oriented mag, and this forum reflects that. I was talking to a "pro" today and another yesterday whose list of credentials is fairly long, and you know what both said? Same thing, FHB is DIY oriented now. I've even heard of that comment being made by some staff at FHB. It is not longer a technical mag like some of the articles on the DVD show that it used to be.
JLC latest post is "why we dont answer DIYers".
Yeh...I was reading that...boringgggggg...like..so what?
Greek poet Archilochus said: "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing"! From The Hedgehog & The Fox ~~~~ An essay on Tolstoy's view of history ~~ by Isaiah Berlin
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
FHB has become a DIY oriented mag, and this forum reflects that. I was talking to a "pro" today and another yesterday whose list of credentials is fairly long, and you know what both said? Same thing, FHB is DIY oriented now. I've even heard of that comment being made by some staff at FHB. It is not longer a technical mag like some of the articles on the DVD show that it used to be.
Tim, thats worth repeating!
I agree with you and as long as there are more DIYers then pros I believe FHB will continue to cater to them, after all their in this to sell mag subscriptions.
Doug
Yeah, but look how much good information pros can get to DIYers here. Yeah, some of it's suspect, but I think it can really be darn useful. Nothing like talking to somebody who wants to learn or teach, rather than argue.
Forrest
But what classifly as a pro. I would be a newby if I ask Boss a question of trusses, so I would be a diyer.But what if Boss or someone else ask me about concrete, would I still be a diyer?.
<But what classifies as a pro.>
But I think that's the whole beauty of BT - we've all got strengths, and don't (mostly) lord them over others.
People really feel comfortable asking questions because of this - people that actually want to know.
I hate organizations where procedure is more important than enlightenment.
Forrest - full of opinions
People really feel comfortable asking questions because of this - people that actually want to know.<<<<<<<<<<<
AND GROW!
Its really all relative the differance between a DIY'er and a pro..I don't consider my self a pro framer AT ALL...not by a long shot..and I've framed dozens of additions as well as whats on this house and my entire last house...see my website below.I'm not a DIY'er either...I'm just somone that loves building. I think the minute you start labeling yourself as an expert...you limit yourself. The more I think I don't know...the more I get to know. I love listening to questions DIY'ers ask...there will always be things I learn from that...that I may bever have asked myself.
Especially in the field we do...Renovations! In renovations most of us do just about everything...not just one thing day in and day out so its great to hear all things asked from everyone.
Plus I hate those snippy tudes the KIA'ers have (knowitallz) : )~
Greek poet Archilochus said: "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing"! From The Hedgehog & The Fox ~~~~ An essay on Tolstoy's view of history ~~ by Isaiah Berlin
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I,m a diyer, a master of none, a craftman of screw up. I am not a pro, when you here commerical saying "Dont try this at home" they are talking to me. they have been to my house..
just be sure not to say Ms Clinton is a shoe in or you'll get messed up too I see...LOLOLOLOL.
>>>>"I'm sorry"<<<...LMAO...LOLOLOL
Greek poet Archilochus said: "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing"! From The Hedgehog & The Fox ~~~~ An essay on Tolstoy's view of history ~~ by Isaiah Berlin
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Another DIY'er here. Over the years I've lived in a number of production run, tract-style suburban homes, a custom home (though not custom built for me), and now a 100+ year old "vernacular-built" victorian. I've made a few observations from living in those homes.
1. A fair number of the "pros" should never be allowed to handle a skilsaw;
2. They really don't build 'em like they used to, and that's probably a good thing;
3. Some of the "pros" do build 'em like they used to, and that's pathetic;
4. Some of the best work I've seen was done by DIY'ers, including myself (and once because there wasn't a "pro" willing to do the job right).
JLC can kiss my behind. They don't want DIY'ers but they're happy to answer questions by every first-day apprentice that wanders in. They don't want DIY'ers but they are willing to have carpenters ask electrical questions, plumbers ask framing questions. It's a "clubhous" mentality with "no girls allowed." Thanks, but I decided I lked hanging out with girls a long time ago.
"If the trout are lost, smash the state."
Amen to that.
I dislike how much of the discussion at JLC is dedicated to justifying their "pro-only" rules, not that I argue with their right to have it.
I do wander by there and find good information every once in a while. But I dislike the attitude in a fair number of threads.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
You make very valid points...of which I would like to add this. After reading through this thread I saw the reference to the thread at JLC..."Why we don't answer DIY" or whatever it was in the trim forum. One of the brilliant(note sarcasm) and narcissitic observations was that they could be liable for injuries sustained due to them replying to a DIY question....
ARE YOU KIDDING ME? What is to prevent me from reading anything on that forum and trying my hand at their posted techniques? I don't know how some of those guys can breathe with their heads so high in the clouds. It is a long fall off a high horse.
ARE YOU KIDDING ME? What is to prevent me from reading anything on that forum and trying my hand at their posted techniques? I don't know how some of those guys can breathe with their heads so high in the clouds. It is a long fall off a high horse.
Boy do you have that right!!! Can a DIYer not purchase JLC? Could a DIYer not attempt to use some of the techniques he may have read there?
Who is liable in that case?
The arrogance that is expressed over there (JLConline) is beyond the pale. Are we not just trying to learn from one another? Did not someone teach them? They seem to have quickly forgotten.
JohnG
I dunno, John, I think your arrogance in presuming the average DIY could contribute to that board on a useful level is a bit much. Why should you be wanted there?
"I dunno, John, I think your arrogance in presuming the average DIY could contribute to that board on a useful level is a bit much. Why should you be wanted there?"It depends on how Average Average is.But then again it depends on how Pro a Pro is.Now I remember a couple of years ago a post by some one that said" I am builing my house and have poured my foundation. What do I do next". I don't recall the exact response, but it was to the affect that they are not capable of building their house and to get a contractor. But it was polite. And I have seen a few post like that here and have gotten sinilar answers.But just this weekend there was a thread in another forum (DIY) that some one asked about covering 2 prong (ungrounded) recetpacles to grounded. I responded with the 3 legal methods. Someone else responded. That person said that he had been remodeling for 40 years and had replaced thousand of ungrounded receptacles with grounded ones WITH OUT ADDING A GROUND OR DOING ANY OF THE OTHER THINGS TO MAKE IT SAFE AND LEGAL. Now based on that background he was a construction pro, but not being a pro.And he questioned my comments about how a GFCI could make things safe. And that he did not know of anyone that had been electrocuted by ungrounded wiring.I found 1/2 dozen stories about people that had been electrocuted and also posted some links about how a GFCI works. And I was backed up by someone with a EE in their name so I am guessing an electrical engineer.After about a dozen post this guy came back and said that he learnt something and said to "listen to BIll".Now over at JLC, maybe 6 months ago, one of the moderators did not like one of the posters who uses his "real name" (and he is a PITA and see he post here and other places from time to time). This moderator did a google on the name (a not uncommon name) and posted links about from the search for people with a completely different profession. And other memberbers of that forum jumped in.I saw after about a week and posted to the moderator if that was a professional way of acting and the thread was removed.My real problem is with the attitude of the many of the people over their.DIY's where either answered to told that was not the forum for them.This was not a problem until maybe a year ago. But now ANYONE KNOWN is attacked. I am surprised that no one has asked to post copies of their IRS returns to show that they are a construction pro.Now I have seen long term posters "attacked" when they post in a different forum than they usually do unless they post a thousand word statement about how they are a pro and why they dare ask a question in that forum.I have notice how the moderators are handling this.While none of these are asking for are welcoming DIY questions they are accepting them, if appropraite.Myron Ferguson"So I would say lets try and keep this forum for professionals only and to be professional on this forum. If DIYers ask questions we can either answer or not answer, but I would suggest that if you don't want to answer the question then please don't respond at all.
The more professional we are the more professionals we will have on this forum.
I don't have the time to lecture everyone who does not not fill out the profile or who I suspect is a DIYer. So I may just answer the question and leave it at that."mbyrne"I know my attitude about those awful HO's rankles some people, but when the amateur questions are as good or better than the pros, I focus on the question--not who posed it.""I have zero respect for the "does not have a clue" howeowner who thinks they will get the job done simply because they WANT to. I try to be as polite as possible and direct them to a source of beginner info."Gary Katz"My second point is: I don't belive that every "non-profesional" should be run out on a rail. As some of you have pointed out, we get some very serious and knowledgable enthusiasts on this site, some folks who have done work on their own homes that we'd be proud to do ourselves. I will not be a party to running those people off this site. I have taken a passive stand when, in the past, some of those folks have been asked to leave. I do believe it's up to you people to make that judgement, not me. Yes, that opens up the door a little, but the word is interpretive, and I guess is has to do with 'manner,' too. I think there are many contributors--maybe even James Eggert!--who would be willing to respond to a serious questions posted in a professional manner by an "pro-sumer" carpenter/architect/engineer/building superintendent, etc."And that is basically how the forums had operated until recently.Now for Yours Truly.I have been a been a member for several years. Only go over from time to time. Just don't like the mechanics fo the forums. And I have posted from time to time. But not has too many questions.And I registored before all of the uproar and have never filled out the profile. (BTW, check my out here). And have 161 post. But most of them have been responses.Now my background is DIY and engineering. While I have an EE degree most of my work has been in software and electronics before that.But I am not semi retired and doing handyman work. Most of it is 1/2 to 3 days jobs. A couple of vinyl floors. One tile job. Paint, replaceing lights and fans. Replacing faceuts, etc.Now that I am earning money from construction does that make me a "pro" to post over there are not?And if I do have to fill out my profile over their I will be "honest".I will put in that I hold all licenses issued by the state (MO) for construction contractor, plumbing contractor and journeyman, and elec trical contractor and jouryman. That is ALL TRUE. The catch is that MO does not license anyone..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
"I will put in that I hold all licenses issued by the state (MO) for construction contractor, plumbing contractor and journeyman, and elec trical contractor and jouryman. That is ALL TRUE. The catch is that MO does not license anyone."So then you don't really hold any license?A professional is someone who makes their living from construction. If that is what your doing than you will be considered a pro. If you want respect at JLC at least be honest about your profession. That will go a long way. My $0.02
It doesn't matter much what Bill does for a living. I don't care whether he's a particle physicist, a nurse, or the bass player in a punk band in real life--he's an authority on electrical and as such can contribute quite a bit to the discussions at JLC. Most of us don't care whether someone's a "pro" or not, we just want to avoid endless regurgitation of the basics. Threads started by DIYers tend to result in that, which drives away the guys interested in cutting bastard hips or understanding moisture issues or thinset recipes or the finer points of construction law.
Now Bill, if you've got a sister who's gorgeous, wealthy, owns a collection of hot rods and a liquor store... we wanna know about that.
Then we agree. If his profile tells me he is a pro or has that same knowledge then all is well. Usually someone who is not a pro does not have the same knowledge as a pro and so we re-hash out how to do basic tasks.
So would it be accurate to say that your issue with the posting at JLC is not whether someone is a pro or not, but whether they keep on asking basic questions that have been discussed ad nauseam?I couldn't care less what someone does for a living, it'a all about their contribution to the forum. What really annoys me over at JLC is when people continually reply to spam and the basic questions. As some of the moderators have said, just ignore the question and it will quickly disappear like all the other dead topics.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Hi, I am a newby here, I,m basically a stock broker who is pretty good at DIY. I been watching all these TV shows on building houses. I think I can do it my self. I installed a hood range last week. What are does black diamonds on a tape measure for? I like to build an 8000 sq ft house. How much do you think it cost? Can I pour concrete and finish it the next day, when my BIL off work?I appreachate any help in this matter.
LOL zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
I was reading a subject over there that has to do with my trade for the last 23 year. I could of pipe in and offer some information, but the way they jump you for not being a pro. I kept quiet. They had made it clear to me, many times, they do not want anybody to help them.
I got similar once. It was a discussion about Fypon and the PROs hada Q about a certain connection and how to cut it. I had donethat several times, and haad been to the factory and heard their suggestions too so I offered my idea based on good experience. It involved using a hand saw instead of power equipmewnt.The two "experts" who had apparantly never done this before jumped all over my case about how idiotic that was blah, blah, blah....so arrogant and not really wanting good advice...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Actually JLC will sell to anyone but they charge more to non construction bussinesses or persons.
Jason
James,
What would happen to the JLC forums if they didn't have a pro's only policy? If you look at the older articles in FHB, they were really good for people who worked in the trades. Now they aren't. If every mag or forum starts to cater toward DIY, then where do I get my questions answered? They and the other questions by pros would get buried in the DIY questions like this forum.
Let me give you an example. I spent some time Thursday with a "pro" who sent me a laser to test. He told me that if JLC didn't want to run the review, don't send it to FHB because they don't allow enough room for reviews. What a shame, that means that JLC and Tools of the Trade are the only place to get a decent review? I know how much I depend on reviews before I buy a tool or anything else. I don't want to see JLC or the forum become DIY.
I understand there is a decent review of the same laser here.
About 5 years ago, this forum would have great threads with pictures, illustrations, etc where some really good info was given. Just look at the old threads where Ken Drake posted.
Besides a lot of the guys at JLC have since gotten to write for the mag because of their posting. That forum is designed to help people who work in the trades regardless of experience. The info often times in the various forums is too technical for a DIY type.
Why is it wrong to have a forum dedicated to pros?
Timuhler, there's a quite a bit I disagree with in your post. First, as to the magazine, while I don't deny that it has taken more of a DIY bent than it used to have, it's absurd to say it is no longer a magazine for the trades. I remember a recent article on how to lay out a hip roof, that is so far beyond what all but the tiniest fraction of DIY'ers will ever do, that the article was necessarily directed at pros. Every issue has at least two articles directed to pros, and the remainder include information useful to both pros and amateurs.
Second, what is the difference between a pro and a DIY'er? As far as JLC is concerned, a guy who has never built a dam thing, never handled a tool more dangerous than a broom, and wants to know what the marks on his brand new tape rule mean is welcome to ask all the dumb questions he wants so long as he started his apprenticeship that day. I've built several outbuildings, poured concrete, framed walls, roofed, re-roofed part of a house, installed tile, plumbed a bathroom, re-wired a house (not just to code, but in excess thereof), both re-finished and installed new hardwood flooring, and built cabinets. In addition, I've helped in the formation of several businesses and have a great deal of very practical experience about how building contractors get themselves sued, how to enforce a mechanics lien, and how to avoid both of those things, but I'm not welcome over there.
IT's their forum, they set the rules, and I'm not going to lie about who I am and what I do in order to participate in their forums. I am, however, going to conclude that many of the guys over there (not all of them by a long shot) are arrogant plicks who think that what they do is some kind of secret alchemy that shouldn't be shared with the unwashed masses, and we all know what kind of load that is. Here, I am welcomed, my opinions are evaluated on the basis of how much sense they make, not whether I got paid for forming them, and my questions will get answered directly and usually politely, rather than being ignored because I choose to do quality work for myself and my friends rather than for others.
"If the trout are lost, smash the state."
FWIW :Pro or DIY....? I built a house a while back . All the openings for windows, doors etc. were to have arched tops. All arches were to be proportionate to the openings/each other.
I had not a clue how to do the math , and I have held a G.C. license since 1972 in Oregon. Started building for pay in 1968.
Home owner is on site, a very talanted DIY, he strolls over , shows me the formula , teaches me the math .
Who' the pro?
I readily admitted I didn't feel like one right then.
He then tells me his minor in college was mathmatics and his senior thesis was on this exact problem. He choose a career in medicine instead of mathmatics.
Course I just had to teach him that you can take most of pain out of a Yellow Jacket sting by applying a tobacco poultice. Had to even the score as it were, teach him a little medicine..;-)
WOW James...sure glad to have you aboard here!! Great post!! Kudo's my man. So well said. Exactly what I've been thinking all through these posts I've been reading.
Hope you stay around and participate more.
Be well
Namaste'
andy...
"i say to foobytor have a sit down ask him whats going on inside and please try to keep up . the rest will register with him..... and you never know the human spirit is an amazing resilient entity"alias
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Timuhler, there's a quite a bit I disagree with in your post. First, as to the magazine, while I don't deny that it has taken more of a DIY bent than it used to have, it's absurd to say it is no longer a magazine for the trades. I remember a recent article on how to lay out a hip roof, that is so far beyond what all but the tiniest fraction of DIY'ers will ever do, that the article was necessarily directed at pros. Every issue has at least two articles directed to pros, and the remainder include information useful to both pros and amateurs.
That's funny you mention the hip roof article. That article was the deciding factor in my letting my subscription lapse. I nearly wrote in to FHB on that article. One of the reasons being that the illustrations looked cartoonish. If it was written for pros, then why weren't there any decent jobsite pics in it? Because the author didn't frame a hip roof for that article.
My comments have to do with the format of the mag. It is NOT geared toward pros, hence your "at least two articles directed to pros" comment. You won't find the great articles by Scott McBride (although he did one on railings last year) describing the layout for a bay roof, or the old really well done stair articles, etc. It is not "absurd" to say the mag is no longer geared to the trades. The reason I say this? Because that is what authors (as in plural) who write for FHB have said to my face, and what I've been told in emails.
Second, what is the difference between a pro and a DIY'er? As far as JLC is concerned, a guy who has never built a dam thing, never handled a tool more dangerous than a broom, and wants to know what the marks on his brand new tape rule mean is welcome to ask all the dumb questions he wants so long as he started his apprenticeship that day. I've built several outbuildings, poured concrete, framed walls, roofed, re-roofed part of a house, installed tile, plumbed a bathroom, re-wired a house (not just to code, but in excess thereof), both re-finished and installed new hardwood flooring, and built cabinets. In addition, I've helped in the formation of several businesses and have a great deal of very practical experience about how building contractors get themselves sued, how to enforce a mechanics lien, and how to avoid both of those things, but I'm not welcome over there.
Good for you. No system for screening DIY'ers is going to be perfect. I'll bet if you filled out your profile and asked the question without sounding like a weekend warrior, you'd never get called on it. The problem is that you get people who ask stupid questions and it tips off the regulars that this isn't someone in the trades or formerly.
IT's their forum, they set the rules, and I'm not going to lie about who I am and what I do in order to participate in their forums. I am, however, going to conclude that many of the guys over there (not all of them by a long shot) are arrogant plicks who think that what they do is some kind of secret alchemy that shouldn't be shared with the unwashed masses, and we all know what kind of load that is. Here, I am welcomed, my opinions are evaluated on the basis of how much sense they make, not whether I got paid for forming them, and my questions will get answered directly and usually politely, rather than being ignored because I choose to do quality work for myself and my friends rather than for others.
First off, you don't have to register to view the forums right? So the "secret alchemy" comment is nothing short of hyperbole. You have access to it, and so does anyone else. They aren't private forums that have a test before you get in.
If you search through the threads over there that I started 4 or 5 years ago or participated in, you'll see that I was very very inexperienced. If it wasn't for the generosity of those guys, I'm not sure where I would be right now. Overall, 90+% of the guys there are really great guys. We both agree on that.
However, you will ALWAYS get guys who are arrogant. Have you ever attended a JLC LIVE? You will NOT get an arrogant vibe from any of the presenters or speakers. Nor will you get that vibe from the really great and helpful regulars at the forums.
Just my $0.02.
You are almost certainly right about the folks over there, I'm sure most of them are good guys. They want their clubhouse to be "pros only" they're welcome to it. Like I said, I'm welcome here, so here's where I'll stay.
"If the trout are lost, smash the state."
That is perfectly acceptable. It is their hill...and its their beans. BUT...don't claim the reason for crucifying DIY questions is risk management, to avoid liability for someone injuring themselves while using a tablesaw to rip trim. It is an idiotic position. I guess some are really that insecure. Just be honest...it is PROS ONLY. No problem with that by any means!
But you cannot stop me from reading;)
Just out of curiosity . How long have you had your subscription to FHB?
10 years +/-
i have to agree and again i like to stress that i have made my living as a professional construction worker all of my adult life, and i have worked professionally in several different trades.
i have a wealth of experience, but because i don't approach things with a typical mentality, and i think about the different ways i can do things, out of the box type stuff, i don't feel like i fit in with those guys that refer to themselves as pros.
i definitely notice a kindred spirit here, even if it is just attitude, i think that for the most part i would rather be over here with the "diy's"
a classic example i love to use is the time i was framing in california on a large tract where all the 8' walls were framed offsite and trucked in. as a framer i worked by myself building rake walls. i didn't even raise the walls, they were stood by the crews unloading the trucks.
after just a few weeks i had all the different floor plans memorized i started to tweak with the technique of framing rake walls and timing myself, trying as best i could to work at an even pace and measuring the differences in the various methods, and i did this for 6 months straight, i think i have it down. this was just to keep from going insane with boredom, i needed something to think about, some way to make it challenging.
a coupla years later new guy on the job (piece work, it doesnt matter how fast or slow) (union, go figure) after watching me for about 15 minutes the foreman decides to be a good guy and explain to me how to build rake walls. i think it was my third day there, and i just sat there and listened politely, nodded and said thank you, and went back to work when he was done. i was trying to fit in again, be like everybody else. i wasn't about to tell him that was the way i did it too before i discovered about 5 improvements that save time. it was so far over his head he couldn't see it when he was looking right at it.
i would much rather have a diy that doesn't think he knows everything.
Forrest
I'm not arguing that JLC is right and FHB is wrong.
What I'm saying is what TimH said, FHB has moved more towards catering to the DIYer and JLC has stayed with the pros. Neither is wrong, they have the right to go after whatever market they want. Hell dont fool yourself, these guys are here to sell magazines, not advice for the DIYers.
Its been a long time since I was able to get any good info from FHB that I could actually apply to my trade. Not so of JLC. I need to clarify that some - I'm not suggesting that FHB hasnt had any valuable info in it because it has, take the article that Hazlett did or some tile work that I didnt know anything about, those being just a few examples. I dont do what Hazlett does and I dont do tile work so both of those articles do me little to no good.
I was contacted by someone from FHB to contribute to the article on hidden doors, there was a problem with schedules - I was bouncing from Texas to Iowa on two jobs and when the guy wanted to photograph some pictures of my work he either wanted to do so when I was in TX and the place he wanted photos of was in Iowa or vice-versa. Or worse yet, the guy wanted to photograph something that was in a house where the people wanted/expected privacy and he somehow thought that he could convince them that they should let him photograph it - like I didnt know the people that I did the work for, I thought that was a little presumptuous on his part but......
But lets take that article - I found it to be rudimentary - if thats the article that they were going for from the get-go then I wouldnt have wasted my time talking to them - the article IMO shows a sophmore level of skill and I'm not trying for that with my work. Thats fine, the're catering to beginers but I'm not a beginer and dont get much info from those articles. And I'm not suggesting that I dont want to help teach someone with that level of skill how to do something - not so. But at some point I have to ask myself, whats in it for me!
I like this site over JLC's - I get both mags but FHB has deffinetly gone down hill when it comes to the type of info that I want. I probably get more useful info from FWW, even though I find "how to dovetail a drawer box" for the umteenth time a bit excessive, they do have some interesting articles.
Nothing like talking to somebody who wants to learn or teach, rather than argue.
Thats why I dont go into the Tav!
Doug
I like FHB over JLC but only because the content here applies better to my situation. While I read the business folder and a few good books recommended here I really don't "use" that stuff day to day. I the near future I think we will all be looking for a forum close to the Old FHB site. As the moderators here try to clean up and sanitize they will remove all the good in Breaktime. Knots was totally decimated by the mods to the point I seldom if ever go there. Most sites moderate for abusive/hateful behavior. Heck, we even have a tavern to air out the pol. threads. I think Taunton needs to look at the who and why. If they want to clean up then fine, but a clear list of do's and dont's, and separate looser rules for the tavern. Maybe we need to find a new place on the web to get together...
hey now, careful that sounds like it might be blasphemy or treason or revolutionary...
I'm in!
When this forum started up back in...was it '96 or '97, we had a handful of folk. Information exchange was prety straightforward. It was social, but also technical.I think things loosened up a bit during The Great Fred/Joe Wars, which broke out when Breaktime was a few years old. A little passion and emotion was injected into the forum, that sort of lead to a bit of familiarity between posters.Eventually we got away from pure construction problem solving and it turned onto a continual cyber-fest.The opening of the Tavern took a lot of the mucky-muck threads off the main board, which cleaned things up a bit. But this is still a social place. Conversation occurs withing threads, and I think for this place that it is appropriate.JLC is what it is. It's better when that's the mood you're in.Breaktime is what it is. It's better when that's the mood you're in.John Bridge, The Wall, etc, etc.Sometimes I prefer chocolate chip, sometimes strawberry.We need variety, or there's else no reason to go here nor there. Once a place becomes everything to everybody, it essentially becomes nothing to everyone.Time to go make some drawers...Mongo
Tim Uhler wrote: You'd be surprised at how many emails I get about roof framing. You know why? Because there are guys who want to learn. Why is that a bad thing?
Tim, I'm with you 110%. I too get e-mails, and not just about roof framing but how to approach construction problems in general analytically (i.e., how to beat a problem to death with math).
There are a lot of people out there who want to learn. Some are students who want to improve their marks, and/or expect to use math as a tool later in their lives. Many folks like myself had to go to work at a relatively young age and never had time for fine schooling. Some arrived in our little corner of the world with little more than the shirts on their backs and a family to support, leaving them little time to attain a university degree. And there are people have learning disabilities that make it difficult for them to read and write.
None of the above is a reflection on a person's intelligence ... in fact, these people are plenty smart enough to see the value in learning, even if they have to teach themselves and it's relatively late in life.
What's wrong with "beating a math problem to death"? What inspired me to join the JLC Forums was that I read the posts and actually saw people tackling roof framing and other problems in a logical fashion. Better than the pages and pages of posts jerking off all over some poor DIYer or HO ...
Frankly, I'm surprised at Gene's comments as he started The math, please ... thread (also in this forum). I always thought that he was one of the people who would see the value in taking an analytic approach.
Maybe we should have a poll or thread at JLC?
Joe Bartok
Edited 2/10/2007 2:43 pm ET by JoeBartok
I for one would like to thank you, Tim Uhler and Kirkpatrick for the math help.
It's amazing the numbers you guys can run off.
I was shown the imperical ways of doing things, never had the math explained to me.
It slowly makes sense to me, I never took Trig, or any other advanced math classes in school. Just the basic algebra and geometry.
So thanks for being patient and helping me make sense of the number side of things. Not the easiest thing for me to learn, but it has made life easier with the bits and pieces I have picked up from you guys.
>> But holy crap can they beat a math problem to death, my tape measure doesn't have decimal points. Seems like all of theirs do. <<Stilletto,Why would you write something like that and jump into Gene's world and say something like that? I'm surprised at you for saying that.Then you turn around and say this to Joe, "So thanks for being patient and helping me make sense of the number side of things. Not the easiest thing for me to learn, but it has made life easier with the bits and pieces I have picked up from you guys.""If you or Gene don't like the way guys at JLC talk about roof framing and the math behind it, then don't make any sarcastic comments about it.Gene on the other hand makes no sense to say that the math is beaten to death when he sits there and asks questions that he already thinks that he has answers too.Do you know everything there is to know about roof framing and math behind it? I certainly don't and I'll ask a million question about it and whatever triggers my brain to understand something I'll use it and then try to use shorter steps on a formula and work it out IN THE FIELD which a lot of guy don't even work in the field.The problem with guys are that they are afraid to try and figure out a rafter using math because they claim that it takes to long and that they can have a roof framed by the time you punch in the numbers into a calculator. That's all a bunch of sh!t. Once you have a math formula, it's a matter of seconds on a calculator and you’re done.A lot of guys like Gene use their programs and cad programs or whatever the hell they use to figure out a roof, which is fine. Those programs aren't worth anything when you tie into an existing house and try to make a new roof work and blend it into an existing roof right there on the spot. The math I use here and at JLC works in these situations and I don’t have to bring a laptop to the job or wait till I go home to figure the roof out.So, yes there are some things where you don’t need a lot of math to figure something out, but now you can take pieces from that and use it whatever way you want that makes YOU feel comfortable with.If you want to sit there and say that guys are beating the math to death then why don’t you come up with solutions to all roof framing that doesn’t beat it to death and share it with the rest of us.
Joe Carola
When I say "beat them to death" I mean by 40 posts or so I have a migraine, by 100 posts I am lost and more confused than when I started reading, I try to keep up and follow you guys eventually you lose me. The things you guys figure out with the calculators confuses the crap out of me at times.
As far knowing everything there is about roof framing, not even close. Never claimed to know everything about anything. Can I figure out roofs, yes. Probably about 3-4 times slower than you maybe more. I have figured roofs on the ground, but I am still not 100 percent confident until the rafters hit the ridge, know what I mean?
As for the decimal comment, some of the numbers you guys post go into the thousandsth of an inch. What do you do with decimals like that? Round them to the nearest 1/8? I am curious about this. Then you guys seem to argue over it. I am probably reading into it wrong.
I asked for advice on groin vaults a while back, and sure enough the regulars from JLC took me through the steps. Kirkpatrick, Tim Uhler and , Joe Bartok all took the time to reply to my posts and emails. They were patient and answered all my dumb questions. Barrels were easy for me to learn, groins I had never done.
In my own way of broken english I was giving you guys a compliment, the mental fortitude displayed in those threads is something I would like to learn and be more confident in. So you guys keep grinding the numbers out, I'll be lurking in the corner trying to learn.
You know, some of those threads really need a FAQ. I agree with you there. The groin thread took some hair off my skull getting through it, then there were one or two "magical" posts that cleared it up :-)
Anytime you feel a thread gets too long, chime in and ask for a "summary" or email me and I'll pass it along to the mods and we'll see if we can change that.
It's not your guys' fault I get lost. I am a little gun shy on asking questions over there. I usually ask here and hope one you guys stroll in and drop some knowledge on my azz. :)
I have picked up alot from the threads over a JLC, as well as the books like A Roof Cutters Secrets. I like to learn the reasons and methods others use to get good results.
<The groin thread took some hair off my skull getting through it>
I just like the way that sounds!
Forrest - gonna' built interesecting vaults, someday, for somebody . . .
Yeah that is a funny statement. I'm not quite sure where it came from, oh yeah the mild case of chrome-dome-ia that is starting :-)
Quittin'time was created by guys from here who wanted a place to be able to scratch their nuts in public and avoid too much censorship
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Actually, the reason was more in search of a web format ssimilar to the old WEBX used years ago by taunton, but it is s till a forum more along the lines of the wild west frontier and less dandified than here.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks, I should have read further.
Pretty much it was set up by libs that wanted to have the button to crush any right wing jingoist writings.
Free John Sinclair.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
first reply was an off the wall half-azzed joke, then I realized I'd better make it right by a little bit anyways.'sides, I needed to flush one of you guys out with the link in your tagline!Worked!
;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Well, thank you again.
Heat wave today. Might approach 20.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Free John Sinclair.<<<thats funny...lol..was watching "Lucky Louie" on HBO last week.
Louie's wife had an "MC5" T-shirt on...lol. wonder how many people caught that...lol.Kick out the jams M***********
"i say to foobytor have a sit down ask him whats going on inside and please try to keep up . the rest will register with him..... and you never know the human spirit is an amazing resilient entity" alias
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Fred Sonic Smith.
Possibly the skiniest guitar player in Amerika at the time.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
>>>Fred Sonic Smith.
Possibly the skiniest guitar player in Amerika at the time.<<<
Very true dat!!
And I owe my hearing loss to Wayne Kramer and Fred from back at the Chicago DNC riot. Really!
"i say to foobytor have a sit down ask him whats going on inside and please try to keep up . the rest will register with him..... and you never know the human spirit is an amazing resilient entity"alias
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
We put on a show at BGSU with them as the headliners. Keeping up with those boys was not as easy thing. A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
We put on a show at BGSU<<<<<<
Wuts that?
All I could figure was it's
Big Gal Stewart University???
"i say to foobytor have a sit down ask him whats going on inside and please try to keep up . the rest will register with him..... and you never know the human spirit is an amazing resilient entity"alias
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Bush Girls Salaciously Undulating? :)I think it's Bowling Green State Univ.Tua res agitur, paries cum proximus ardet ~ Horace
He's right with Bowling Green S.U.
I wasn't very big at that time.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Paul, where'd you come up with that?
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I think what we're all really saying is that BT is "JLHC"
Journal of Light-HEARTED Construction
Forrest
I think what we're all really saying is that BT is "JLHC"
Journal of Light-HEARTED ConstructionYes, casual and comfortable.
Well I've been following this for a little while.
I'm new to both forums (new to cyberspace)
I think they both serve different purposes, wich is why both of them were set up IMO.
JLC is for PROS I"M a pro been doing this build stuff for 20+ years. And in the short time I've been there I"ve learned quite a bit!
Break time is for anyone. And in the time I've been here I'd like to think I have something to offer with out giving any harmfull advice to anyone.
Simply put it's apples + oranges I like both for diferent reasons
NAIL IT !!!
I would expand the comparison to amongst BT, JLC and THS.
JLC wins in terms of discipline, but is also the narrowest.
BT has the best forum software, but JLC also has an RSS feed.
THS has the greatest volume and diversity, and also the most redundancy.
I think there is also more pure fandom on THS, such as the Lacanche
or IKEA cliques, which at times can be thrilling and inspiring to watch.
If BT has Quittintime as an offshoot, and
THS has BAHRR, what about JLC?
For me personally BT or perhaps BAHRR offers the best outlet for
my voice. My small contribution seems to get more mileage in these
two places.
whats THS?
"i say to foobytor have a sit down ask him whats going on inside and please try to keep up . the rest will register with him..... and you never know the human spirit is an amazing resilient entity"alias
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
never mind...sorry,,,found it.
"i say to foobytor have a sit down ask him whats going on inside and please try to keep up . the rest will register with him..... and you never know the human spirit is an amazing resilient entity"alias
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I didn't. What is it?By the way, great site. Your work looks geat.I'm hoping I can do work as nice and well rounded. Unfortunately, I prefer to work with others, as long as they have a clue.GlennOh yeah. Are you still on the macrobiotic diet? Can't bring myself to do it. I like sugar and real food too much.And beer.
Glenn with two N's
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/thanks..and yeh...still a macrohead...and you CAN drink beer and alcohol on MB's..I just choose not too...we became far too good a friends : (
"i say to foobytor have a sit down ask him whats going on inside and please try to keep up . the rest will register with him..... and you never know the human spirit is an amazing resilient entity"alias
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Hey, an extra letter is the one thing my parents could afford back then.Booze and I have been extremely good friends, but I could never bring myself to be a friend of Bill W's.And I can't imagine beer could make the food taste any better.At least that's what I am told.
Booze and I have been extremely good friends, but I could never bring myself to be a friend of Bill W's.<<<<
Well FWIW...I'm no friend of his either...just an aquaintance...Luckily I found my best friend right in my own skin : )
"i say to foobytor have a sit down ask him whats going on inside and please try to keep up . the rest will register with him..... and you never know the human spirit is an amazing resilient entity"alias
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
what is THS?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Paul
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/
"i say to foobytor have a sit down ask him whats going on inside and please try to keep up . the rest will register with him..... and you never know the human spirit is an amazing resilient entity"alias
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
As the "talkingdog", what about http://www.canine.com : - )
Or, http://www.bonechew.com or http://www.bonepick.com
Just kidding, I am not sure those websites exist.