So Saturday I was walking by a new home construction site going up around the corner from our house. They had just dropped off the floor joists Friday, since we will be needing them on our addition I decided to ask the “Lead Framer” ( I can’t call him a carpenter) who they got them from (i’d like to support the local guys if I can).
So as I walk up there are two pods of guys all on break. The one pod is two guys in there 40’s, pretty kewl guys out front eatin a sammich, the other pod with the “lead framer” is inside………………………..smokin weed with 3 others!!!!!!!!!!!!
The new homes in my hood start at $500K, this is no POS house going up.(<— not that this is really relevant, I suppose)
I’m really stumped. I have nothing against weed, or even people smokin it. But on the jobsite? When your going back to work? In a high-end home? Is this what you guys keep talkng about you can’t find a good worker these days??
Your thoughts and opinions.
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“It is so, because Piffin tells me it is.”
Edited 1/17/2005 10:57 am ET by sailfish
Replies
When on Site
No drinking
No smoking, if the house is enclosed
Absolutely no dope. It's illegal in addition to a bad business practice.
Having said that, several years ago I came out of a custom home we were building just after the work day ended. I could smell and see reefer smoke coming out the windows of the carpentry contractors truck. I walked up to fire him on the spot, when I looked in and there sat the owner and his wife puffin away. I didn't see the contractor inhale, as Bill says, so I let it go with the admonition of termination if I ever did catch him.
I'm really stumped. I have nothing against weed, or even people smokin it. But on the jobsite? When your going back to work? In a high-end home? Is this what you guys keep talkng about you can't find a good worker these days??
Sounds like a real smart thing to do .......pot & power tools & nail guns.......
They probably polish off a half rack at the end of each day just before they get behind the wheel to go home too..........
If I were you I would report them to Labor and Industries..............
When we talk about finding good help we're disappointed at how few people are even interested in our trade.
Many people categorize the "Construction Trade" as the guys that weren't smart enough to go to college and better their education.
We are a trade that is getting replaced by minority workers because they will work for less.
Quality is being replaced by cheaper materials and cheaper laborers.
Why would anyone want to lay down a bunch of money for tools they don't know how to use, go out in the rain, in one of the most dangerous professions around, get humiliated by those in the know, for a little above minimum wage?
Sounds like a great opportunity to me...........
This is one reason there are few with skills that want to dive into the trade.
This is one reason why we can't find good help these days...........
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
Edited 1/17/2005 2:22 pm ET by Pro-Dek
Shoulda started this thread in General Discussion instead of The Woodshed.
Some BTers don't read in here.
Eenie,weenie...chili-beanie
Can it be moved?-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It is so, because Piffin tells me it is."
Brian the moderator would move it if you can get ahold of him.Eenie,weenie...chili-beanie
[email protected]Dunno how much longer they'll be in the office.
I won't even drink a beer while I'm working. Too much can go wrong, and the insurance companies just seem to be looking for any excuse to raise rates or drop us.
Along with the increase in DWI stops, its just not worth it.
ditto....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Call the cops.
I'm like you. Whatever people want to do is their own business and I realy don't care who smokes pot. But not at work.
As far as finding the good help ProDek is right on the money.
Who Dares Wins.
Weed and power tools really don't mix well. I don't allow it on my site, same goes for drinking. Fired a roofer of mine two years ago for smoking weed up on the brackets. What a moron.
That being said...... best framer I ever met, Tex, had a joint hanging out of his mouth all day long.... sometimes it was lit, sometimes it wasn't.... but it was always there or tucked behind his ear. We were working in the same condo development and these frames were way tricked out. Every framer on site would go to him to ask questions about the frames as the plans sukked and he'd been there the longest. He was just one of those guys who, it seemed, didn't even need to think about framing anymore.... it just came to him Strange bird.
Different condo site.... the guy who set all the forms for this whole 500+ unit development worked with his son. Just the two of them. Stan (the old man) was 72 years old! He got out of the truck in the morning at 7am with a Coors Light in his hand and it was never further than three feet from him all day long. Couple of beauties. He used to bring in these smoking hot pickled peppers from his garden for everyone. That's all I'd see him eat all day, Coors Light and hot pickled peppers. Glad I didn't have to ride home with him everyday. One of his foundations that I had to frame was 4 inches out of square over about 50 feet. Not bad when you figure in his condition.
I really don't miss those big sites at all.
NOT GOOD...
go with Gunner's plan...
next you'll find a theft increase in the neighborhood..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Whats a pod? Heard if you fell/got hurt,you'd be piss tested if filing W.Comp.So the smokers would just go home instead of the doctor.
I have worked on crews that smoked at lunch,etc. even so far as using the company cell phone to 'score' some weed.
As far as finding good help,I tend to dis-agree with Pro-Deck to an extent.The people venturing into the field barely making minimum wage are making what I used to get paid laying out walls,cutting steps,etc. Maybe I'm naive or behind the times.
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
Our minimum wage is $7.50 here in Washington. I don't think you can afford to load your tools in the truck and show up for work for less than $12.00 an hour.
You're not behind the times Framer, The times have just caught up and passed us by.
You did too do it...........I saw ya"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
Drinking a Guiness on the job...brillant!! sorry,couldn't resist.Brillant!
Pro-Deck, plain jane board toters get $10/hr and ahem,carpenters get $13-14 and can't square a wall or nail a joist on the right side of the mark.
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
Pod (n): 1)a number of animals clustered together
2) a grasshopper egg case 3) the belly of a plane as in the fuselage-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It is so, because Piffin tells me it is."
whales....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
"Pod (n): 1)a number of animals clustered together
2) a grasshopper egg case 3) the belly of a plane as in the fuselage"
WA - "pod" (pronoun) shortened form of "podna" which is carpenter speak for "partner" - for example - "hey pod, don't bogart that j"
Long time ago I used to do that..not no mo'. Too stoopid, and WC gives pizz tests if ya wind up hurt, even if someone ELSE drops a hammer on yer head..and you have to go to the hosp. you get "checked" as soon as it becomes a comp claim.
NEVER, ever anything in me on the job..even in my shop,if it's time on the job, I'm working just like on site. Only fair to who is payin.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Watch out for the edges, it's really fast out there...
can't be slacking too much if they'r working on Saturday?
I don't smoke .. never found it appealing ... always liked beer too much.
I don't drink on my jobs ... don't drink at work at all ...
do know a coupla good guys ... some great carps ... that think nothing of stopping and having a beer with lunch. One guy brings a Guiness in his lunch box most days ...
one or two beers .... coupla tokes on a J ....
I'm pretty sure that's not gonna make anyone go nuts and cut off their arm ...
I don't allow weed on my jobs .. it is illegal. Don't allow alcohol as I don't think it would instill a great deal of customer confidence ... but it sounds like these guys U snuck up on .. on a weekend afternoon ... weren't working in a situation where the customer is always around. I do remodeling ... sounds like they were framing new construction.
I'm positive someone sneaking onto job sites on a weekend afternoon should be ruinning away and calling the cops ...
I got a question for eveyone else ...
like I said ... I don't even have a sip of beer during the work day ... not because I'm afrain one beer is gonna kill me ... but because I like to enjoy my beer ... I don't want the thot's of going back to work to get in the way of my beer enjoyment ... so the earliest in a week day I'll drink is knocking off early on a Fri and stopping at the closest bar to the jobsite on the way home ...
the question ... U ever have one ... or 3 ... when "working" at home?
ever build a set of shelves in the driveway on a Sat and kill a 6 pack at the same time?
I have ... the shelves turned out just fine ....
very little projects get done around here without at least one soldier dying before it's clean up time ...
so aside from business protocol and customer relations .... what's the big fuss?
ok .. I have to correct myself ... worked one job .. remodel ... as an employee ... where the home owner forced us to start cleaning up right after lunch on Fri .... insisted we all have at minimum one beer in hand ... then sit down by 2 and have a couple with them till 3 ... then ... we were kicked off his property immediately at 3:01 ... right after he verified with the lead carp that all the time cards said 7:30 to 4 ......
Guy was serious about it ...
told the lead carp after the first week .... no one works here Fri afternoon and no one gets shorted their 40. We either work together or I'm canceling the project ... said he was paying top dollar .... and his theory after living thru a coupla big dollar remodels was he got a much better end result when everyone had their "Fri Bonding Time" ...
he was right!
jeff
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Sailfish,
My father holds a Florida Contractors license. From 1980 until around 1986 I worked in and around Tampa as a framer. I worked in N.J. as a Carpenter until I joined the Army and after I came home. Eventually running my own business.
I seem to remember My dad having a hard time keeping help that would stick to the simple rule of No Smoking and no beer until all the tools were put away. Anyone caught breaking that simple rule was let go on the spot. Thats not to say that there wasn't a Pik-Kwik on the way home that always seemed to have a six of Bush tallboys waiting ( I think we paid for the Building Pik-Kwik was in in Citrus Park off of Gunn HYW).
Anyway, what you described seemes to me to be much more acceptable in your area then any other I've worked in. Being a Carpenter when I lived there was just slightly better than being a hand at Tampa Bay downs or a migrant orange picker. I've not been to Tampa since 2000 but it didn't seem like much had changed.
In the late seventies and early eighties it was no big deal to see a tradesman go over to the cooler and pull out a Bush, suck it down and go back to work. More than one crew had it's fair share of Lunch time smokers. Most places I've worked since would never tolerate such behavior.
As for good help, It depends were you are and the attitude toward the trades. When I moved to New Jersey it was still fairly respectable to be a Carpenter. Over time new construction has become the domain of the Illegal. When I moved to Pennsylvania, the Factory Jobs were the good Jobs and you went into the trades if you couldn't get into Mack or the steel.
In My opinion it's a self fulfilling prophecy. The job isn't that desirable so the help you get isn't top notch. so lots of people are in the trades that don't expect a whole lot out of life so the prices stagnate or even go down so the quality of help goes down with the pay and on and on and on.
I could get a job today for $25 an hour. After taxes and $250 a month for health insurance, I would only bring home around $400 a week less than I do now and I'm in the Military. And thats before I buy my own tools and use my truck to hual them to the jobsite. I could do a little better as a sole proprietor. The trades in My opinion have failed to keep pace with what truely skilled workers should be making. Of course it doesn't help that it appears that half of all new construction is doen by Illegals or that many companies have capitalized on the situation by developing products a monkey could install. It would be tough for me not to be very upset if my son told me he planned on going into the trades.
Hey guys, You have to see this framing job. WOW!
Wow I say. Now I am no carpenter not even a tool picker-upper, but WOW. Wait til I get you pics of this job tonight.
Granted it is rough framing and I'm sure there are acceptable errors that can be corrected without redoing the walls, but .......... {pics to follow}
I think the reefer dudes smoked a tad bit too much of that Gainseville Green.
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"It is so, because Piffin tells me it is."
sail... do tell...
company policy... enforced:
no drugs or alcohol from when you wake up until you leave at the END of the day.. and this means no beer or drugs at lunch
which means i had to stop drinking my one beer at lunch too.. good for the goose, good for the gander..
the old way.. guys would come back from lunch popped....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
what about the ones that show up fer work with blood levels at toxic level...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
you mean functioning alcoholics ?
i've never know one that could make it thru a workday.. they all seem to need a boost at lunch
BTW.. i know some great carps in that category....maintenance drinkers..
i just don't want them on my payrollMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
or the partiers that are functional that really are impaired..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I know the ones you are talking about. I've known of two jobsite deaths where the "victim" had a bad case of the "flu" the day after too much partying.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
on the big commercial sites that happens all the time...
when somebody comes up positive the insurace companies raise the rates or drop ya...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Ok so like I said I am not a builder or anything along those lines. So I have no idea if what is in these photo's is acceptable for a $500K home or not. These will never be seen once the home is finished and I doubt that it affects the home structurally. I can also say that I don't recall ever passing something like this along when I was a kid working during the summer as a helper for a GC either.
Based on the measurement errors and "fixes" I think our "carpenter" may have been compromised:
Header.jpg is the header cut to make the opening of the door the standard height
header2.jpg is the same header as well as the one next to it as your walking in the house. It too was either made too large or the studs cut too short
header 3 is a bay style window. I imagine this is no biggie but krikey's all 3 windows side-by-side were different in their header assembly
there was another deal with the interior walls approx 2" short from reaching the floor joists already assembled and sheated. I'm sure they will be able to build those walls up later so the sheetrock to be run, but wouldn't it be alot easier to do it now??? Just my observations. Sorry no pic for that.
Let me know as an amateur if I am being overly critical. Thanks
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"It is so, because Piffin tells me it is."
no yur not...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
OMG
Holy cow! I was going to write that according to some friends of mine in college, four people on a joint is like having a beer or two, but never mind. I'm going to guess they didn't just split one!!
all relative to size...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Just from looking at the pics and with out knowing what size headers were called for, they missed on their rough-openings. The walls look like just partitions[non-bearing] which don't need big headers anyway. I'm not excusing the hatchet work.
The bay window headers,one being set on ply fillers will be ok[?]with the exception when nailing the windows in,the nails don't hold good into plywood. It looks like bugger work,yes,I agree.
Why no pic of the 'short' walls? Grasshoppers lay eggs??
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
> The bay window headers,one being set on ply fillers will be ok[?]with the exception when nailing the windows in,the nails don't hold good into plywood.
To me those pictures look like it's OSB, not plywood.
-- J.S.
uhh,yeah...almost lost sleep about that
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
OK, I'm ready to say so now;).There is never a good reson for dope or dopes on the job, it always results in this sort of work.Even in my personal stuff, I refuse to open a beer until after all the work stuff is done. I'm acutely aware of exactly what it is doing to and for me ( which is of course why I'm sipping on it, and why they are too)
No, Jeff, I don't think you can build a set of shelves as good with a six pack as without - sorry dude!not just on the job smoking - the residual effects of dope are longer lived than those of alcohol. our craft demands alertness not just for quality, but for safety, and that is same fopr everyone on the job. Each man affects every other man there - morale, safety, production, etc. That is why the wise old farts were outside away from the cloud. That crew was not working <together>, so they weren't working safe or up to speed.Nobody does stuff omn my jobs, though I will buy the beer sometimes after a hard one or on fridays - but the smokers never last long - they can't listen, ort work to keep up, and nobody else likes to pull their weight for them.And like Mike Smith noted, I think policy always comes down from the top. Somebody is tolerating this crap to be letting it happen...As far as tying wages and the labour availability to this issue, I don't know what i think there really. It has always been easier to get work in the trades than in most occupations with minimal background etc, so I am sure that we draw from the dregs to some degree. I wasn't all straight and sober myself when I started swinging a hammer, but i found out soon enough that the two lifestyles didn't mix, and since i like to eat, I chose working for a living...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"No, Jeff, I don't think you can build a set of shelves as good with a six pack as without - sorry dude!"
I do a plenty good job of sanding after the 4th beer and cleaning up the tools after the 5th ....
never even hurt myself running the shop vac with number 6 in hand!
So I guess I'm the only guy here that ever worked at home with a beer somewhere nearby ..... uh ... yeah ... right ....
now I'm gonna worry that some stranger is sneaking in after me and taking pics where he shouldn't be ...
Jeff
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
You ever see my typing after a six-pack?You won't either. I go to bed by three drinks
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Seriously I don't care to drink and work around the house. If I'm gonna drink I'm gonna sit down and enjoy it.Who Dares Wins.
if I gotta do actualy around the house ...
I wanna be plenty drunk so I don't remember it ...
thots like that could scar me for life ....
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
If I'm going to drink seriously, I'm going to enjoy it too! LOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
But I don't drink seriously.Just for the taste
or the relaxation
or socially
or medicallybut never seriously;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
besides that he has to drink all the ones that I didn't..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I've got a brother in law that has been smoking weed since he was a young teen (13 or 14). He's in his mid-40's now, and still smokes daily. Right now, he is working on a crew in Florida rebuilding all the damage from the hurricanes. Now remember, this guy has been smoking weed heavily since he was a young un, and has not slowed down a bit.
But... on the jobsite, if he catches you smoking weed, he personally throws your tools in the street, and then tells you to go pick them up and keep going. He does not allow weed smoking on the job, nor does he allow you to come to work stoned (smoking one on the way to work). He says that he does not trust anyone stoned to work safely, accurately, or with any care about the quality of work being done.
A stoner being against weed on the job site ought to tell ya something...
Just my opinion...James DuHamel
He who dies with the most toys.... Still dies!
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul?" MARK 8:36
http://www.godsfreemusic.com
I occaisionally drink a beer or two while im at home working, but usually its when im working on my own house since i often need to run errands while working on jobs for other people at home (i usually save all the running around town that i can for days that im working at home).Also when im working on my own home i dont care how slow i go or how often i havto re-measure because i forgot what the tape measurer read while i was busy killing a solder.______________________________________________
--> measure once / scribble several lines / spend some time figuring out wich scribble / cut the wrong line / get mad
You should have nothing to worry about.
Sounds like you have excellent work ethics and values.
My GC buddy told me to stop by one of his sites (unrelated to the reefer house) to check out his framers work, I guess I got there just after they left. Since I am looking for subs, and wanted to see these guys' work, I "snuck" onto the site. Needless to say I was impressed! This two story looked textbook.
When I originally "snuck" up on the reefer house it was with the same intentions(information/work/subs/etc). It wasn't to be deceptive, or to catch someone in the wrong. Just happened to work out that way ;-)
Wish you were down this way Jeff, i'd love to have you bid on our remodel/addition.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It is so, because Piffin tells me it is."
"Wish you were down this way Jeff, i'd love to have you bid on our remodel/addition."
Yeah ... but just remember ... U only get the free beer when I'm working at my own place!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
can anyone tell me what that strap is for on the header1 pic?keep those pics comming sailfish, thats some good entertainment, im pretty green(un-expirienced, not weeded-up) but pics like that make me feel like i ought to be writing books about framing (jk)
______________________________________________
--> measure once / scribble several lines / spend some time figuring out wich scribble / cut the wrong line / get mad
guess it to be a truss strap to hold the roof onto the building...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
could be diagonal end of a brace strrap - but more than likely it was just a half-azzed attempt at dealing with other issues they created by hack work. I had to laugh when I sw that one, and thunk to self, well, that header won't blow off...LOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
thought the same at 1st...
but you can just see the trusses in the background...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
...at least the header won't blow off.....
freakin' hilarious!
I don't have anything against weed , but it does not belong on the jobsite . If I catch you smokin on the job go home , your fired . You have to ask yourself the question . Do I want to make money ? Or do I want to get high ? What you do after work has nothing to do with me !
Mike - Foxboro , Mass.
One of the first jobs I ever did, about 25 years ago, completely green apprentice, the J-men on my crew were all smoking pot at break & lunch. These guys would be walking around on the roof with their dogs up there with them, and their tape in hand, pulled out about 10", holding it like a walkie-talkie saying "10-4 good buddy" to each other into their tape-measure.
Putting pre-fab roof panels on large housing tract (2' x 8' plywood panel with black felt and cedar shingles), they would start at the eave and work in toward the valley. They'd let them run wild, then snap a line and make the valley cut. Carbide blade to cut through the staples, not to mention making mincemeat out of the valley metal.
I went to the superintendent, said "I'm just a first-period apprentice and I don't know anything, but I think these roofs are getting screwed up. I don't think the guys are supposed to be cutting through the valley metal like that." He told me "they're journeymen, and I'm not a babysitter. Go mind your own business."
Needless to say, first rain, and the houses all leaked like a sieve. Superintendent comes up to me, "Hey buddy, can you fix it?" I said "Yeah, tear the roofs off and start over." He hired a roofer to try to fix it. This guy was actually up in the attics trying to solder all these sawcuts in the metal valleys! What a joke.
A year or two later I was driving by the tract. I looked over, and all the houses had new tile roofs.
Thinking about it now, it was a union job, and I think maybe they were mad that the pre-fab roof panels were putting a roofer out of a job. I remember them complaining "we're framers, not roofers" when they saw the pre-fab panels.