Hi Gang,
Just getting some working drawings done up for a house i will be building as an infill on a lot adjacent to my house, that I will move into with my family once completed.
Can you guys take a look at these plans? I plan to have tile kitchen & baths and hardwood in the other ares, and the drawings have the joists on 24″ centers… this seems like they are too far apart, and will result in bouncy floors. I am thinking 16s as a minimum.. thoughts?
I am asking to remove the wall between the living and dining rooms- I want to have the option of building some sort of room divider or 2 sided fireplace or someother feature, so I would prefer there being load bearing no wall there.
How can I call out Stan Foster to look at these plans? is there any way to turn these stesp into a full spiral given the heights?
Any help / insight you can provide would be appreciated!
Replies
I think you will need to give us more info.
size of building, type of joists etc.
The more info the better.
Hey There,
I attached the drawing that I got from the "Architecural Technologist" that is doing the drawings. On it, it lists spans, and joist spacing reccomndations etc.
ThanksRav
my apologiy. I didn't blow it up enough to read. Old eyes!
Bouncy floors are a function of length to depth ratio much more than spacing. The thread on Floor Vibration has a lot more info about it.
Understood! I acually wanted to use floor trusses instead of dimensional lumber, so should I just just take these plans to the truss supplier and have them take a look?
"...should I just just take these plans to the truss supplier and have them take a look?"
That would probably be best. they'll be able to tell you what kind of trusses they build, and make recommendations accordingly.
The summit of happiness is reached when a person is ready to be what he is [Erasmus]
they'll be able to tell you what kind of trusses they build
Any risk in them selling what they build, and not necessarily what he needs?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
"Any risk in them selling what they build, and not necessarily what he needs?"
What I was getting at is that not every manufacturer builds the same kind of trusses. Some build metal webbed trusses. Others build wood webbed trusses.
With wood webbed trusses, there are more than one kind of web pattern. Pricing can vary widely between manufacturers.
So that's why I suggested asking what they recommend. If they build wood webbed trusses but don't really like messing with them, they may charge a lot more for them. So in that case metal webbed ones may make more sense.
I-joists are often referred to as "floor trusses", even though that's not really what they are. Not every truss manufacturer sells them, so again it makes sene to ask locally.
Things vary so much from one region to the next that I hate to make specific recommendations...
Someone who thinks logically provides a nice contrast to the real world.
Ok, so what info should the OP present to the truss company, other than the plans? Does he need to ask for extra stiffness, or tell them if he plans on a tile floor vs wood, or if he has a baby grand piano?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I think if he just takes the plans in and tells them if he has any special needs (Like the tile you mentioned) he'll come out O.K.
Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner. [James Bovard(1994)]
Thanks FastEddie, I was a little shy about pushing the point, but I also had the same questions you were asking. Do I just have to say, I am going to be tiling these areas and need stiffness, and they will take care of it.. Odd, since thats what i told the guy who drafted the plans :)
No reason to be shy about asking questions. We're ALL learning here.
Hi-ho, hi-ho, it's hand grenades I throw.
There's tile, and then there's tile. if you plan on using smallish porcelain tiles, you can lay over most anything. But if you plan on using large natural stone tile, you need a much stiffer floor."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
What's an "architectural technologist"?
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
That title means he can charge more money than a REGULR geek with AutoCAD.(-:
When I Want Your Opinion I'll Remove The Duct Tape
My thoughts exactly."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
just a guy with AutoCad, who is not an architect so less $$ :)
Here in Canada an Architectural Technologist is a trade, like Electricians or Plumbers, that is taken at Community or Technical Colleges. They usually make up most of the production staff in architect's offices because of their superior technical education.
What's an "architectural technologist"?
Half-smart geek with CAD attempting to sidestep his state's practice and licensing laws.
(That term is sepecifically in Texas' practice laws as a violation, too--go figure.)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I know where you guys are coming from with Architectural Designers, Designitects and countless other euphemisms, but read my above post. The OP lives in Ottawa. You are talking about a completely legitimate title. One protected by law.
about a completely legitimate title. One protected by law.
So's mine, has not prevented loss of work to people not necessarily even licensed to drive.
Not that I can find records of any prosecution, ever, for violations of Texas' practice law. BUt, Board of Licensing and Registration keeps spending money to keep narrowing the definitions <sigh>
It's a "hot button" to me. Has to be, it's kicking my rice bowl. That, and the work product the other people are putting out is what every one blames my profession "for" (even when "we" only get to touch 20% of the plans out there).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
That sounds like a policing problem. Here in Ontario, when you go to get a building permit, they need the BCIN number of the person who did the drawings.. no # that coorelates with the drawings, no permit..
in Ontario, when you go to get a building permit, they need
Well, sadly, in Texas, out of cities, you don't need permits at all (or if you do, they are water, sanitary, F&G, & such). If you are a big tract builder, you just buy farmland outside the city limits cheap, and punch out cookie-cutter houses as fast as possible. Often, the only thing needed is a DE to sign off on the street layout or for individual foundations. Also, in many of the smaller cities, local builders can take out "homeowner" permits with a lot less supervision than the municode would otherwise require.
This is a topic of great controversy.
Especially in high-end subdivisions with HOA & ARB. The Movers-n-shakers do not want to pay "big city" prices; but they want to be able to insist that thier neighbors do so.
So, there's a huge tide of "everybody does it" out there. But, the result of that are McHouses in great number. Which seem to beget McMansions. Which seems to reinforce the whole loop again.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I can only speak to the situation in Canada, but architects have proven to be their own worst enemy here. Fractious, unable to organize to protect their interests, unsure where to stake their claim in the new world of "coordinating professionals" and engineers - they vacillate between high concept statements and projects indistinguishable from those designed by other professions.
It may be poor consolation to you, but the 20% of work touched by architects includes pretty well all the buildings I admire.
It may be poor consolation to you
Oh, and with a delicious irony of poor and impoverished in that turn of phrase <g>
Worse yet, how some house in a neighborhood will stand out (to where even "lay" people so remark); sad when the ARB does not want them for being 'different' and therefore a 'threat' to the status quo . . .
Which, to be very, precisely, clear is my primary objection: Good design is its own reward; it should not be an accident of choice; or the exclusive province of the "rich." "We" condemn too many to learn design by living in horrible high-density rental apartments of far too small proportions. How can "we" expect people to want better when they break the chains of renting and select for ownership instead?
Sadly, here, I fear I preach only to the choir, which becomes a waste of perfectly good oxygen (and photons) and only annoys the choir.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Nonsense. As Don Quixote tells us: Nobility of thought is never wasted.
As Don Quixote tells us: Nobility of thought is never wasted
Perhaps. Feels like i'd need a promotion to just be Sancho Panza of late <sigh>.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I agree with others to seek guidance from the lumberyard (truss/joist supplier). You'll certainly want to note on the plans where tile will be used, as this affects not only joist sizing but placement as well. You may need to drop the joists to accomodate tile thickness, extra sheathing thickness (sometimes 1-1/8" plywood), etc.
The living/dining wall can certainly be deleted -- question is can it be done economically? You may be forced into a beam/column arrangement, and that is somewhat affected by what's structurally above and below. This is a fairly major design decision that should be addressed before any bidding takes place.
Are you talking about having a full 360 degree spiral stair on each floor? If so, that's going to be a wide, stange looking stair!
}}}}
PS: An Architectural Technologist should refer to someone with an associate's degree in Architectural Technology, but often means an artichoke school dropout.
Tile floors should never rest on 24" on center floor framing.
ravz
Do you have a foundation plan. I was wondering if your first floor will be conventional lumber or engineered wood?
What you posted is showing your second floor framing. Will there be tile up there also?
ravz, given your floor finishes and desire to minimize the wall between the living and dining rooms I would offer that at a minimum you should consider 2x12's @ 16"o/c in dimensional lumber or, better, 11 7/8"dp pre-engineered floor trusses @ 16'o/c. What are you bearing on below?
I have a real problem with under-designed floors in high traffic areas (kitchen, living/dining rooms) so I always go up on the load capacity 'cause after one well attended party with a lot of folks hanging around the punch bowl you will...well, you know.
As to the guys discussion about the types of pre-engineered floor joists we have a choice of 'Boise-Cascade, Trus-Joist, Micro-truss' and maybe a few more I haven't though of. Your yard will have their favorite and all of them are designed to have increased capacity over dimensional. AND, yes, they do over-over-design when you come in. Probably because of the liability issues they can incure.
Substitute a full spiral to the second? Yep, but....you are going to get a significant point load on that center column so the structure below needs to be looked at. When you go out to look at your choices make sure that you can get the loading and then you can plan for that.
FYI. Any use of the word Architect, Architectural or any variation down here in Ohio gets you a letter from the State. Very anal (am I allowed to say that?) down here, but it does protect the public so I guess it has value.
ciao, ted
"...11 7/8"dp pre-engineered floor trusses
..."
I-joists and floor trusses are completely different things.
Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever they go. [Oscar Wilde]
thanks for all the replies, I have read every one of them. One question, what is the measurement for floor stiffness? is that deflection? is there a magic number that should be provided to the floor truss / i joist company that i would want them to meet?
Generally our Residential Building Code requires 30psf in sleeping rooms and 40psf in all other habitable areas (Kitchen, Dining and Living rooms, decks). The allowable deflection is the length/360 for floors and all other structural members at length/240.
You don't want more deflection than L/360. The floors are certainly strong enough to serve their purpuse at L/240 or less, but you will hear the china cabinet rattle when you walk through the room. Natural stone tile requires a much stiffer floor with L/720. The problem is that stiffer floor cost a little more."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Granted. I should have said joists instead of trusses.
But if I don't get overly generic in the description, which would include both in the description, I get the glazed eye. More often than not I'll ask the general which yard or source he uses and then work to their material of choice. I really don't care to use the truss type in a house because they are difficult for the rough framers to trim to a field condition. Doesn't happen often but....
With the I-beam type, which I obviously prefer, taking off 6" doesn't require having to add additional solid blocking in the vertical should we get a field condition that we have to adjust to.
???? The longest clear span you've had with a truss type? And how deep did it get?
caio, ted
I like to be specific - Otherwise I don't know what somenoe is takling about, which can obviously lead to a lot of confusion.When I do floor trusses, I always measure the foundation after it's poured. That way there are rarely any problems with the lengths of the trusses. The longest clear span residential floor I've done was 32', with 24" deep wood webbed floor trusses. It's amazing how much room is in those things for mechanicals. I have an Uncle who built with those. There's a 24" duct in the center of the trusses, and he laid plywood in the duct. When he needs to work on wiring or something he uses a mechanic's creeper to roll down the center of the house to get where he needs to go. .BTW - I absolutely REFUSE to use a 30# live load, and try hard to avoid L/360. Both of those two things can result in some pretty bouncy floors.
If you are going nowhere, any road will take you there
One of the hardest things to get some "designers" to recognize is the requirement to provide for a home's utilties both in vertical and horizontal runs. That could be an entire forum and pretty ugly. One house I worked on had to have three furnaces 'cause the designer couldn't disrupt his creative nature enought to get any HVAC duct runs from one end to the other. (That was in another life I had, good learning experience though)
The numbers for loading that I provided were the minimums set by the State of Ohio and....yep, they are going to be bouncy and no, I wouldn't use them either. I usually work from an area on a floor that has the highest load requirements. That sets the subfloor height and then carry that structure through the entire floor. That way I don't have to have blocking or doubles or more or less courses of block in other areas.
Gonna hit mid-'70's today, good time for a bit 'o nature.
ciao, ted
I've had HVAC guys go postal on me about web patterns. The HO doesn't decide until after the trusses are delivered that he wants the HVAC up in the trusses. Sometimes lining things up is all but impossible - depends on the situation. But a lot can be done with some prior planning. I don't spend a whole lot of time on it unless someone asks.
Be alert - the world needs more lerts.
"I don't spend a whole lot of time on it unless someone asks."
AMEN to that!
t