In my 75 year old house, the 2×10 floor joists (nominal size) under the kitchen are let into the brick exterior wall on one side and nailed into the side of a stair opening on the other side. The span is 10′, 16″ oc. I’m not sure if i should be concerned about this nailed connection and put some josit hangers in before I finish the basement. Was this an acceptable means of support before Simpson came along? I don’t see any signs of settling, the josits and the floor above are dead on straight.
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If it's lasted that long without any visible sagging, then I imagine it's probably quite safe.
On the other hand, how difficult would it be to throw a few joist hangers in at this point? After all, those nails aren't getting any less rusty with time.
Have fun nailing through that 75 year old, hard wood.
Hey Mark, I'm up here in Iowa, your home town don't look all that good today!
Looks like quite a bit of damage from what I could see, didn't want anybody to think those damn carpetbaggers from down south were coming up here to cheat and swindle all the little old ladies out of there SS checks so I stayed out of downtown, but what I did see wasn't that good.
Sorry for the highjack, I'd add some joist hangers, what can it hurt!
Firemen hate those old brick houses with the let in joists, they make it unsafe during a fire. I think I seen where they need a notch cut into them, better to check on this though, I've only seen this mentioned, never dealt with it personally.
Doug
Firemen hate those old brick houses with the let in joists, they make it unsafe during a fire. I think I seen where they need a notch cut into them, better to check on this though, I've only seen this mentioned, never dealt with it personally.
Doug, most of the houses where I am are brick. Code requires firecutting the joists. All it is is a cut line from the bottom corner of the joist at an angle to 1 1/2" in from the top. Keeps the wall from getting tumbled when the center of the joist burns and the weight of the floor pulls the joists down. With the fire cuts, the joists just hinge out of the pockets and the wall stays. I wouldn't go through removing existing joists to fire cut the ends, which likely already have firecuts anyway.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Maybe I used the term "let in " incorrectly. All I know is the josits plunge into the brick wall. I can't tell if they have those diagonal cuts because they bricked up to the joists on all four sides.
Its true that it would be no big deal to throw some joist hangers on there. Or I might just build a wall next to the stairs to give the joists something to sit on.
My primary question to those who have seen a lot of these old houses, was it acceptable to use nailing as a method of support between framing members back then?
if those joists have fire cuts then the hangers defeat the purpose...
that can make fer some seriously unsafe conditions..Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Hey IMERC, I thought he was talking about hangars on the stairwell header side. From what I can get, he is leaving the poketed side alone.
Why do you think that's dangerous?
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
fire cuts on joists are so in the advent of a fire the floor caves inward (folds up on it's self) and doesn't push out on and aid in the collapse of those heavy crush ya deader than a door nail brick walls...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
>>"collapse of those heavy crush ya deader than a door nail brick walls...
That sounds like it might smart a bit. Probly hurt the next day even. ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
probably ruin the whole week...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Rich...
didn't mean to hijack yur thread....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Since when did that bother ya!
what bother me????Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
>>"Maybe I used the term "let in " incorrectly. All I know is the josits plunge into the brick wall. I can't tell if they have those diagonal cuts because they bricked up to the joists on all four sides.
>>"My primary question to those who have seen a lot of these old houses, was it acceptable to use nailing as a method of support between framing members back then?
Here we call that pocketed. Tomato tamahtoe, I know what you mean on the brick wall side. Like I said before, I would not go to the trouble to pull them all out to look at them unless the BI was adamant about it.
For joists butting up against the stairwell header as you describe, I've seen it done two different ways (not that just toenailing the joists to the header is no good, I'm just relaying how I've seen it done in older houses -- YMMV).
One way -- the really old way -- was mortise and tenon. You ain't gonna do that (least I hope not).
Another way was a ledger board under the joists. Either the joists get notched to fit over the ledger or the finish surfaces for the stairwell are done in a way that the header can be deeper than the joists. Still much more trouble than joist hangars.
For your predicament, put in joist hangars. It won't take you fifteen minutes. Buy a palm nailer and if you don't already have a compressor, rent a small one for a half day.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Yes It was acceptable. I would bet that there are more nailed joists in existence , than joist hangered joists. When I first started framing there were no joist hangers required. I still frame as though there aren't , and then throw them on after the fact just for the sake of the BI. End nailing and toe nailing done properly will do the trick assuming the cut and fit are exact.
On all the old buildings I've done all were "let in" or joist pockets into the brick... all had the "fire cut" as described and usually every 3rd or 4th one had a 3/4" round steel Z that tied the joist to the wall via a 3/4" drilled hole in the joist... to tie the walls to the joist system... (these are all over 100yo buildings) on the walls the joists didn't pocket into they used cast iron building stars....
as i understand it the fire cut was there to let the inside of the building fall and burn as was said... not to save fireman because chances were at the time they were very limited in numbers and equipment... but to save the outside shell of the building they'd let the building burn ...clean out the inside and rebuild inside the still standing brick walls... was kinda a limited insurance... wood & labor were cheap... even then brick & lime wasn't....
p
Jay- no doubt that the hangers are a relatively new arrival. Here's my question- do you still nail the Simpsons per their schedule? I ask b/c we have an addition where it looks like it was all nailed up w/ a gun, and then the hangers were added w/ 6d nails almost like they were just inspector decorations. I get the production speed of framing w/ a gun, but it seems like going back to add the hangers would eat enough time to make just doing it once the better choice.
Have fun nailing through that 75 year old, hard wood
GRK screws or if they are that tuff predrill....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!