We all know that the all the laws of the universe say that your not allowed junction boxes to be hidden in walls. What is the difference between them and a pot light. The wires are all tucked into the metal box on the side and then covered over with drywall over making them no longer accessible anymore.
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story

In older homes like these, the main remodeling goal is often a more welcoming, more social, and more functional kitchen.
Featured Video
How to Install Cable Rail Around Wood-Post CornersHighlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
Actually, all the pot lights I have seen allow access throughthe light opening. Awkward, but it's there.
And I'm an R&D engineer for the largest lighting company.
Forrest
Mc: So you are the guy that devises methods of using old razor blades to build those things. You should never have admitted that in public. I'll be thinking of tortures worse than waterboarding for you. <G>
DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
LOL - I'll pass that on to the correct group ast work - see what they say!
Forrest
Hey McD...not to hijack the thread, but what can you tell us about the idiotic law whch will ban incandescent bulbs, starting next year? I am buying a 30 yr. supply of 75 and 100 watters, but what about speciaty lights like those used in sconces and chandelliers? I'd rather go back to candles than put a CFL in those fixtures. What about LED or other new technology?
We do little residential, hence little incandescent. But - it is kinda' questionable to ban incandescents.
CFLs aren't up to the task yet, and have a bad PR problem. LEDs are expensive, un-standardized, and not well enough understood by the residential consumer to make informed decisions - I'm afraid they'll soon get the same bad PR as CFLs.
However, there's no doubt that incandescents are far better heaters than lighting devices (won't be any CFL EZ-Bake Ovens).
Good products and good information could make consumers CHOOSE non-incandescents, but short of that, they're just legislating choice, to force the issue.
Our DEPOT has incredible close-outs now on small incandescents - with odd prices like $0.18 and $0.27 for what were $2-$4 packages.
Forrest
Yeah I wasn't trying to start a political discussion, but...banning a product, practice or behavior based soley on some vague perception of "the public good" is blatantly totalitarian. Why not ban cars with more than 2 cylinders and weighing more than 1000lbs? Limit people to 1 TV and computer per house? Ban all alcohol? (Oh yeah, they tried that once. Didn't turn out so well). I think there will be a consumer revolt when people finally wake up to this and people realize how crappy and expensive cfl's are. I'll bet 90% of the country is unaware this is coming down the pike. BTW, a story in yesterdays Investor's Business Daily noted that 3 US plants making incandescents are being closed with hundreds of lost jobs. The CFLs will be made in China...let their workers get mercury poisoning. I guess those are the "green jobs" we are hearing so much about!
> Why not ban cars with more than 2 cylinders and weighing more than 1000lbs?Well, there are the CAFE standards for cars which, before being eviscerated, managed to keep US gasoline consumption essentially flat (and gas prices down) for something like 15 years, in spite of ever-increasing miles driven.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Well Dan, the CAFE standards did not limit consumer choice, which is my and McD's point. If a young or not rich person wanted an economical car, they could buy it. But gas hogs were always available to those who wanted them and in fact the standards were always designed to that end. Remember,SUV's were trucks and not part of the car "fleet". Also, it is extremely doubtful that Cafe standards had anything to do with gas prices...the lower prices were the direct result of the lifting of price controls which spurred investment, supply, and ultimately resulted in lower prices. In fact, most economists agree that, if anything, CAFE standards had the effect of increasing gas consumption because, at least in the smaller cars, it was cheaper per mile to operate. Bottom line...I should be allowed to buy whatever lightbulb I want.
"what about speciaty lights like those used in sconces and chandelliers? "Currently it only includes edison base bulbs (standard base). Also it exclude other specialty bulbs such as refrigerator and oven bulbs.Also this does not affect halogen bulbs. But IIRC they are outlawed in a later phase.Here is a strange one.There are a bunch of rules about the light fixtures with ceiling fans.If they use incandescent bulbs there has to be a way of restricting the total wattage to 190 watts.OK, I am cool with that. But also they must be candelabra based. WHY? I can't see any logic is that.And I wanted to use CFL's in it. Those are hard to find in "60 watt" candelabras. But I did find some at Lowes and they are instant on.But instead of a simple fuse this ceiling fan used an electronic limiter with trac output. It usually worked fine with the CFL's. But from time to time it did flicker. So I had to "re-engineer" it.Also I noticed that Instant On CFL's are becoming more common. And those are going to really be needed in some places where they are replacing incandescents..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Thanks for the knowledge, Bill.
In my opinion you're a fool to not use CFLs for most standard residential lighting. Most people can't tell them from incandescent, they last a lot longer, and are cheaper to operate. It's money in your pocket to switch to CFLs.Granted there are special cases where incandescents are needed, but the new rules accommodate those situations fairly well.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Well on the matter of cheaper, I' not sold. But , I also think people who spend 50k for a car or have 6000 sq. ft. houses are fools, but I wouldn'd presume to prohibit their foolishness (as I see it). Also, the last 2 hotel rooms I stayed in (Hilton chain) had the CFLs and I sure could tell the difference...it made reading very difficult.
Edited 9/13/2009 3:54 pm ET by TommH
Cheaper is definite -- you save money on electricity, and (with the current low price of CFLs and their long life) you save on lamps as well. Plus there's the added benefit that you spend much less time changing light bulbs.You do have to hunt around a bit to find CFLs with the right color. I find that the cheaper ones are actually better.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I think we are arguing past each other, Dan. If you like CFLs, great. I've been using them for years in my old fashioned basement fixtures. I just want the option of using incandescents where I find them to be a superior product...like in the lamp on the desk I'm sitting at. I fear the totalitarian mindset of the current political elite. If you want a good example of it, read the Sept. 8th column of NYTimes columnist Tom Friedman in which he laments that we don't have a political system more like China's (totalitarian last time I looked.) where the enlightened leaders are simply able to impose "enlightened" policies on the unwashed masses without having to deal with their unwanted and unenlightened input. Scary stuff, but not surprising. I had a Marxist college professor preaching the same gospel 35 years ago. The leaders, of course, would exempt themselves. OOPS...Giants- Redskins just started; I'm gone.
Edited 9/13/2009 4:22 pm ET by TommH
Tell the gang on this web site that folks w/ 6000 ft homes are fools. They provide a living for most of us.
DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
Hi TommH,
or have 6000 sq. ft. houses are fools
Ya got me on the defensive here my friend.....some of us in these large houses also run businesses.....both the DW and myself save a great deal in not living in a smaller home, commuting endlessly and working in yet more square footage. With a larger home we contain all operations much more cost effectively. Our current home is 4 1/2 times the size of the last and we use right at half the energy of the last home plus save on the energy and fuel used to commute and support an outside office. Attention to detail and planning makes far more effective resource use.
View Image
Pedro...I was just responding to Dan H's response that only a fool doesn't use CFLs' ...being absurd to point out absurdity. I don't care if your house is 100k square feet, as long as you can pay for it, go for it. I happen to prefer a smaller house for me. It would be a pretty boring country if we all had the same cookie-cutter, gov't mandated houuses, cars, or depressing colored lightbulbs.
Hi TommH,
I was just responding to Dan H's response that only a fool doesn't use CFLs' ...being absurd to point out absurdity. I don't care if your house is 100k square feet, as long as you can pay for it, go for it.
That's cool....my point is that we use all of that seemingly unnecessary footage very efficiently.......granted life and death situation we could make do with much less but it would also cut our business efficiency to do so. Our super large home affords us gracious living but at an actual cost savings over our previous smaller home, commute and office space across town. Excluding actual facility cost value since everything is paid for.....operational costs only, the old way were about $1175 per month......the new bigger, fancier, more comfortable way are about $240 per month. Phones and such are equal so they're not included in the evaluation.
View Image
When you say operating costs do you mean the energy costs?
Hi f&t,
When you say operating costs do you mean the energy costs?
Difference in two electric bills on two less efficient structures, one trash pickup now vs. two, transportation commute costs to and from the office eliminated, one large house cost less to insure than the smaller house and separate office building combined, water metering with the office was always based on minimum charges not on minute quantity actually used and many other such details that really add up.
View Image
True, very true. That's a nice chunk of change in the pocket!
Sunday I bought online some lighting fixtures from 2 company. One order was 5 fixture and other was for a single fixture. Both free shipping.So when UPS left a box this afternoon about the right size for the single one I was shocked. And that is the only thing that I ordered.But to my surprise it was from Energy Federation and had 2 60, 75, and 100 watt CFLs. They are all instant on. (first instant on ones that I have seen in other than 60 watt sizes).And I compared it with some other bulbs that I had. For the 60 watt bulb it was shown as 15 watt current draw and had the same lumens as another one that I had. But a different brand I had listed 100 less lumens and only 13 watt consumption.Looked in the box and there found that it came from the local power company and included a survey about their rebate program.I would have rather had the $850 rebate.But my 30 yr old leaking freon AC unit tested out to about 0.1 too high of seer to get the rebate..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Well, if they made CFL in other than the "equivalent" 100w & 75w lux sizes, I would have more of them.
But, they really don't make an equivalent to the 15w & 20w & 25w minispots and micro floods I use in my house. Tough enough to find CFL lux-sized to match 40w lamps, when I do, one more gets replaced.
The globe-shaped cfls to repace the vanity fixture lamps still need a lot of work. Far too many buzz for no reason at all (or for reasons as mundane as installing them in older houses).
Maybe I have an unfair advantage, I don't use (or like much using) 75 & 100w incandescent lamped fixtures.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Yeah, the choices are still poor. As they get more accepted, though, that situation should improve.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Dan: It's an opinion that most people cannot tell the difference. I have a son & daughter who swear by them, but when I visit them, the light is downright depressing to me. I can tell immediately that the world doesn't look the same. Something is missing. Probably frequency distribution of the light. Wife can tell the difference, also. Is it an age related thing?
I seem to recal that the Europeans are suddenly having problems w/ their mandatory change that took place recently. Seems that the Gummint has reported that the light outputs are not the equivalent to the old incandescents.
If you suffer from SAD, you would never survive in the north w/CFL's.
DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
Actually, CFLs put out more of the spectrum that helps SAD.What you often notice about CFLs is that they seem "brown" when first turned on. But after warming up for 30 seconds to maybe 2 minutes or so the color improves and it's hard for most people to tell the difference. But that first 30 seconds can leave a sour taste in your mouth, so to speak.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Sorry, Dan. I can tell the difference if I walk into a room that has had the lights on all day. Don't look "brown" to me when turned on, either.
Yhey just make me feel depressed because they don't seem as bright.
Contrary to some folks, the very short start delay & warm up time do not disturb me at all. It's the steady state that bugs me.
I agree w/ several others here - I don't like some elite know-it-all telling me what's good for me. My experience is that they don't have to put up with it. Like the US Congress. And former Vice Presidents of the US.
DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
"Yhey just make me feel depressed because they don't seem as bright."They aren't. If you look at the lumen rating of them and compare them to incandescent you will find that they are often 10-20% less for the same "equivalent". And the light source is more defused and in some fixtures that makes a difference."Contrary to some folks, the very short start delay & warm up time do not disturb me at all. It's the steady state that bugs me."Some brands are now coming out in CLF's with 3 "flavors". IIRC they are soft white, bright white, and daylight. 2700K, 4100K, and 5000K respectively.And look at the lumens, you will have a big difference between each of those bulbs for the same wattage. Also the human eye does not see the total spectrum. It has peaks and valleys that does not always match the peaks and valleys of the flourscents. That was was particually bad with the basic cool white and warm white bulbs.The newer tri-phosphors have more and wider peaks in them so that they look brighter to the human eye for the same lumens.And it is certainly possible that there is also a perceivable, at least for some people, in the 3 different color temps of the CFL's..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Yeah, I always try to replace a 60w incandescent with a "75W" CFL, since the lumens of the CFLs are overstated.In addition to color temp there's CRI, which measures (crudely) how "broad" the spectrum is. Unfortunately, it's hard to even find the color temp on many CFLs, much less the CRI, but if you try different brands you can find ones you like best.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
A year or two ago you used to see CRI more on the CFL's.But color temps you can usually find. If not specifically listed look at the base of the bulb. You will often find it. If not listed separately it will be part of the part number.I have a feeling that the CRI's are about the same, but I have not researched this.I have looked at several catalogs of linear florescents. And in the T-12's the CRI was all over the map. I think that I have seen some as in the 40's and some as high as 95. But if you look at the tri-phosphors and the T-8's you will find that they are all very close to each other..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Unfortunately, it's hard to even find the color temp on many CFLs, much less the CRI, but if you try different brands you can find ones you like best.
Yeah, the packaging of CFLs tends to be very awful, hugely detailed information on everything about the lamp, except the useful info.
Looks like we have to wait for edison-based LED to finally have a chance to use what used to be called 'flesh tone" lamps, which are really good for dining rooms in non-exposed fixtures. That hint of pink, rouged with orange, brings out the colors most decorators want in dining rooms. Tough lamps to find anymore though, outside of dealer shops.
Almost as hard to find as the high intensity "daylight" halide minispots used in produce sections in markets--which are really spiffy in dining areas too, when you can find the fixtures and the lamps. Hang the decorator's chandalier, minimally lamp that; put in four produce spots in recessed fivtures, and the table looks like a million bucks, all without being over bright or with a great deal of glare.
Ah, lighting desing, the "forgotten" residential design field.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
> Ah, lighting desing, the "forgotten" residential design field.It was pretty well forgotten before CFLs. It just continues.Try to find, eg, some nice (residential style) fluorescent ceiling fixtures. Best I could find 18 months ago was the 1955 Circline kitchen fixture with a squared-off plastic cover -- nothing with the commercial plug-in CFLs, and many Edison base units that were unsuitable for CFLs for one reason or another.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Try to find, eg, some nice (residential style) fluorescent ceiling fixtures.
BWHahahahahaha!
Ok, somewhere between a 1/5 and 1/4 of the "starter" houses in my town are rentals (about 80/20 gentrificated/purpose-built)--the number afflicted of very cheap, very awful, lighting is about unity.
The lamping tends to be as bad as the fixtures, too.
To close to dangerous, too; I've seen 100w lamps in fixtures rated for 60W max.
Which, to my thinking, only teaches people that crummy lighting is "ok" after all, it was good enough while they were renting.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Bill: There is nothing worse than someone telling you that "You shoudn't because some data says that..." I don't care what the data says - they make me feel depressed & they don't seem as bright.
Maybe my eyes are different from yours...?
I also tried to give the message that I don't fight new technology by telling that I don't mind the delay & the brightening as they warm up. I just don't give a tinkersdam about the data & what ratings say - they depress me. Period - end of report. Type it up Effie.
DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
Bill: I owe you a big apology - misread your first sentence. Thought you were telling me I should like them. In reality you were agreeing w/ me.
Oh, the shame of it all..
DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
If you look at the lumen rating of [CFL's] and compare them to incandescent you will find that they are often 10-20% less for the same "equivalent".
The color rendering of CFL's doesn't bother me, but I did notice that they seemed to produce less light than their incandescent counterparts. I had a feeling that I was being snookered.
But I had no way to verify that perception because many light bulbs, including CFL's don't specify lumens. And that's a sore point with me. It's completely backwards to measure lightbulbs based on how much energy they consume and list how much light they produce as if it were a "feature".
Lumens per watt (along with total lumens and total watts) should be required on every light bulb sold today.
Edited 9/14/2009 9:29 am ET by DonCanDo
Hi Dan,
use CFLs for most standard residential lighting
Agreed.....in some areas we still have incandescents such as the dining room and that is because of the type of fixture.....keep hoping for LED's that I can sub out but we do most of our use of that room in the early morning when we have abundant eastern sun lighting so they are rarely used.
Most all other areas use CFL's and don't regret a single moment of the choice. We use a lot of can's with CFL floods.....great for kitchen and office alike....the great room uses some overhead back wall CFL's in sconces and table lamps and shades with CFL's.
With a little planning and minimal costs, we're saving $ and not given up a thing in exchange.
View Image
Also, you know there is a pot light there--you do not know that there is a hidden junction box, or if so, where it might be so you can uncover it to work on it.
I think that is the key point, you know it (pot light) is there, if only there were some creative way to hide the junction box while still leaving clue as to location?
That's what kids are for. No one else's fingers can reach in to work in those pot light boxes. - well maybe spider monkeys but they are hard on the tools.
Ha! I have actually used a kid before to fish some wire through a cutout for a box. His arm would reach, mine wouldn't. That s what I told his mom.
To boot, it wasn't even my kid, my buddies!Webby
And people complain about youth unemployment.
I guess times have changed. Years ago I used to play a game with the paperboy. Whenever he came to collect, I'd chase him down the street with a baseball bat. We both enjoyed it - at least I think he did too - anyway, can you imagine doing that today? They would call in a tactical squad.
Yeah, I don't know how I survived those type things. I even rode in the car standing up on the bench seat! And I laid on the back dash under the rear window. Gasp.Webby
Recessed cans can be disassembled from below exposing the J-box.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.