not a big deal … but sometimes ya just can’t win.
got a warm lead from a buddy. He’s busy working for a company I set him up with … he got a call for a small bath remodel … he can’t get to it … so he turned it to me.
I call … ask budget … no answer … say … “as I’m sure Joe told ya … average bath is $8k … ” blah blah blah.
meet with them for a look see. 5′ wide x 10′ long … “average size” …
they’re to buy the finish materials … me to cost the labor.
so … figure roughly … 3.5 weeks … at $2K/week … $7K labor. Plus … $825 for sub materials, a bit of framing and a window.
she’s set on a whirlpool tub, kohler toilet and ped sink.
tumbled marble floor … some kinda inset pattern … and 12×12 ceramic/marble tiles for the waisnscot and above tub/shower.
price it up before I head out for vacation … email/fax it off and mail a hard copy for sig.
get a reply email … I’m very nice … my portfolio looks great … very happy with proposal details …
‘cept it’s “more” than anticipated.
so … email back … how much too much. They do seem like good people … if they accept a minor delay here or there … I can use less helper and drop price $900. But “this” is why I asked budget on our first phone call … and 3 times during that first meeting!
they finally admit … total budget … $5K.
again … thet’s why I said on first phone call and during meeting … $8K is the average bath remodel … and average doesn’t include a new window … whirlpool tub … kohler fixtures … and/or tumbled marble and wainscot tile.
I have no idea what people hear … always wonder which words come outta my mouth.
anyways … gonna give them the breakdown of what I was gonna charge for demo/removal. If they honestly demo 100% … I’ll honestly deduct 100% of what I would charge. I’m also gonna send them to my plumbing dealer … tell him give them my price. I’m charging labor only … so why should HD and/or Lowes make a sale?
Figure this way they’ll save a coupla bucks, my guy will make a sale, and I know all the parts/pieces will fit together.
Guess we’ll have to do a combo of their money saving ideas … both wait .. and them do the demo.
Not a big deal in the end … I do think I can make this work … for them and me …
but … always wonder what people hear when I talk.
I am not shy about telling the truth … I do not low ball.
at least 3 times told them the “average” was $8K … and their ideas would make for a great … “above average” … bath.
dealing with the general public … U just can’t win!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Replies
Keep doing what you're doing, they'll hopefully refer you to someone with money...think long term with these people
dealing with the general public ... U just can't win!
That's why I mostly just sub. I've had several of those kind of customers lately. Had one that wanted a price on a copper roof for a house she was considering building. She had me go on line to the Southern Living website and look at the sales ad for a set of plans she was considering. Told me I ought to be able to give her a price from looking at the floor plan and front elevation provided there.
She hadn't even bought a set of plans yet, but was considering a copper roof and implied that if I was as good as she'd heard I was, I ought to be able to "see" the rest of the roof in my head and give her a hard price. She even was checking my schedule because she had a construction timetable in place, but hadn't dropped the $1000 or so for plans.
I sent her a proposal for the front of the house and told her to extrapolate for a budget. No hard figures without hard dimensions.
Haven't heard back.
OTOH, every year when new trucks come out, I drive to the dealers on Sunday morning when the sales staff isn't there and lust after a new ride that I'm not gonna buy. But, I try not to waste anybody's time but mine.
View Image
http://grantlogan.net/
"he ot the placed closed down whyyy thhhattt nnooo gooodddd" - sancho
"I have no idea what people hear ... always wonder which words come outta my mouth."
That's going in the quotes thread.
=0)
I feel like that ALL the time !!!
I estimated a T&M job to repaint a house - based on "its a rental, and I don't want to spend any money". Figured one coat, same color, clean and paint only.
Next I find out the "renter" is the owner's daughter and grandkids. Change color. Repair trim all over the house. Fix sagging patio. Paint the porch and steps. And the awnings. I kept telling them, this is going to cost more. OK, no problem. That's going to cost more. OK, no problem, we just want it done right.
When the job was finished, owner paid, no problem, thanked me for doing such a great job. But had to say "Sure cost a lot more than your original estimate"
I explained all the extras I wasn't told about when I gave my original estimate.
Called me to bid a bathroom remodel a couple years later. First words out of his mouth "I hope you're not as far off as you were on your last estimate".
Yeah - do people even listen to us?"...an open mind is a powerful thing. The ability to listen to others is invaluable."
Jim Blodgett
Yeah, I had customer call me the other day with a change on some windows.They started off with , "We decided to follow YOUR recommendation..."I'm thinking WTF??? I never rec...
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Several years ago, I designed a garage conversion to apartment.I did some rough conceptual sketches and asked what the budget was. They wanted to keep it near fifty grand. I said well, to do that we'll have to get rid of these dormers and this balcony porch to simplify it.They were fine with that and said go ahead and draw it up and give us an estimate.So I design with plain gable and no balcony porch.
Price around 54K as I recall.They loved it except she says that looks too plain so add the dormers and balcony.I like that idea as true to my concept to start with, so I redesign with the fun stuff and new estimate closer to 70KOh she went into a tizzy about how I had already given her a price of 54K and she had already borrowed the money and .....I got paid for my design work, said give me a call when you decide what....Good ridance on some customers.
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Or......the person who knows about what you charge and thinks you are too high when you price theirs.
Did a tear out of a one piece fiberglass tub and installed a new pan and wall set to convert it into a shower. Acrylic walls. Included in this was Moen faucet and associated plumbing and it was a seated shower base. $2400 roughly.
His son calls a month later. "Love the work you did at dads, mine is a little trickier but we want you guys to handle it". They want the seperate shower in a full bath with a tub replaced. Tear out, new base, new walls, new valve, Basco shower door, and while we are at it caulk the tub and replace the valve on the sink. $3200.
Saw him a few weeks later. "Man, no way am I spending that kind of money on a shower!" . Guess we can't win. DanT
I went and looked at a job once for 2 architects. Made the stupid assumption that they would know what they were talking about.
They wanted a wall out, toilet turned around, new shower, new bath, new vanity....all relocated and a skylight. All on a nasty access site......I told them 10k easily. Plus buy all your stuff.
He looked surprised, I asked about budget. He said all up, job finished for 3k
I had to pick my jaw up off the floor so I could walk out.
Some people are either really clueless or genuinely think they can hammer a guy down.
Heck I'll charge $3000 just to put in a skylight.What gets me is when I go to a house to look at what turns out to be a major problem, (broken floor joist, broken rafter, exterior rot that is letting water into the walls, leaking roof) and the people balk at my price and then don't call me back. I drive by the place a year later and it still isn't fixed.
I'm having a similar issue, or am about to have - client I've done two jobs for before (front and back porches), and now they've decided to have a prof (me) finish their big ol' house interior reno - tons of work on 6-9 rooms - three of which are new bathrooms.
They want a firm fixed price (the guy is a comptroller), and my 200+ line spreadsheet is already hovering in the $70-80K range. About 1300 sq. ft. of gut reno + two complete new HVAC systems.
I have charged for design and quoting, but I think they're gonna be shocked.
I'm trying to devide the areas up into three mutually independant projects, to give them some options.
Forrest
"I have charged for design and quoting, but I think they're gonna be shocked."Heck, my prices shock ME!
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Heck, my prices shock ME!
I am soooooo glad to hear you say that. I thought it was just me. But if you're saying the same thing, I must be doing something right....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I always say ... and tell my neighbors ...
"I can't afford ME!"
and mean it!
I add them up and am constantly suprised ... how the hell can anyone afford to build anything! I certainly can't ....
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Just got my preliminary spreadsheets done for that project - just over 2000 square feet of interior and attic renovation to reasonably fine standards. Two staircases, three full bathrooms, one a big master bath with walk-in shower. Two complete HVAC systems.
Will not pierce the exterior envelope at all.
$198K and 1920 hours of work.
WHEW!
Don't think they'll go for it - be a nice job, tho'.
Forrest
Unbelieveable.
Eliminating some storage work in the attic, that big interior renovation client just this afternoon accepted my bid as it stood. I really had just wanted to give them a wake-up call as to the magnitude of what they wanted. Thought they might just pick a couple of items from my Chinese menu quote.
Whew!
No signed contract and $ yet, because first I've really gotta decide how to do this AND get the first two parts of Monster House started.
Finished up THAT design last night, delivered the final drawing set, got paid. Met this morning with the ICF rep for his takeoff and quote. Big house had TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS of styrofoam - no steel and mud, even.
Forrest - gonna' be scurrying
What does $200k break down to for cost per SF of ext. wall area?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
< cost per SF of ext. wall area?>
I have to do some breakdowns this weekend - all the exterior walls are 31-1/2' tall, total from foundation to roof trusses - but some of the interior (basement) walls are just 12' high. I have a separate quote for the two rectangular buildings we'll start with - that'll be simpler.
He says generally figure $.30/sq.ft. of wall for steel - concrete I'll get from the form count. And I need a fresh concrete quote for the pumpable small aggregate with SuperP.
I have one of the giant styrofoam "Adult Legos" in the kitchen now as we eat - kids think it's cool.
Forrest
Looks like you'll be busy for a while.
A BIG Congratulations!
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Thank you, sir! Ya' know, I went over there last night with all the paperwork to sign, scope, schedule of payments, yadda yadda, and they said . . .
"You know, this is all really super. Can we just add the attic renovation back in, and enlarge it to the whole attic, and add one more upstairs bedroom to be renovated in Phase Three, and add it to the master suite as bigger closets and bigger laundry room, and then the master bedroom will be bigger (back to 24' square)?"
Sure, I say . . . let me go back and modify all the spreadsheets . . .
Forrest - my first over $200K without penetrating the existing skin of the house
Gonna be some fine photos for us to be looking at I reckon....
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I really believe that most people (though not all) really have no idea what it costs to renovate or build. I also believe that most people can't afford what they want. Their wants are bigger than their wallets. I see it almost on a daily basis.
Having said all that, don't we all fall into that category to some degree.
I did a really small job for a lady yesterday just to help her out. It really was a handyman job but I had some time. She told me over the phone what the small jobs were and I loaded up my truck accordingly. When I got there and did the jobs she had some other stuff to do like plumbing(minor) and some other stuff where I didn't have the tools. She made the comment that maybe I should carry all my tools. I said "lady, I have about $30-$40,000.00 in tools, Refrigeration, plumbing, electrical, threaders, sheet metal and lots of wood working tools. I don't have a truck big enough to haul it a round all the time".
They really don't know and I guess, how could they.
roger
My latest project is a bathroom remodel moving every fixture so cutting up slab,expanding room/granite/ tile/full glass/grohle fixtures/freestanding cabinets/custom louvred doors and on and on.
I told them a year ago that it would cost well over 40 grand they balked thought it should cost twenty.
Started 3 months ago on a cost plus showed them every expense made them buy all the big stuff out of their checking account.
By the time the painter finishes they are gonna break 50G's.
It always amazes me when people expect a low price and I add up their materials and it blows the budget before any labor.
But they got a Home and Gardens showcase bathroom and they are happy if not wore out.
I made them do a bunch of the chasing and shopping.I took them to my buddies granite shop on a sunday for an exclusive shopping experience after trying to pick granite out on a saturday in utter chaos at another place.
But what really kills me is my mom bought a house to move closer to family and she wants to relocate all the fixtures in the bathroom on a slab ,claw foot tub ,resheetrock ,tile floors with wainscoat, and thinks it shouldn't cost 5 grand.This from a woman who has successfully run a large farm for thirty years and several off shoot companies.She has convinced herself that it can be done for that and I just shake my head in disbelief.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
The customer's comments always get me. My favorite is always this. Tell them I'll be there at 8. Partner gets there 7:45 to set up, put drops down etc. I've been picking up material since 6 a.m., not to mention I was up till midnight doing plans, material lists, etc. I get there at 8:05 and get the comment. You're late, partner's been here for 20 minutes. That drives me nuts, I think homeowner's think the tooth fairy brings the material.
Chuck
That is your fault.You did not say that you would start picking up materials at 6. You SAID that you would START AT THEIR HOUSE AT 8.What you should have said is that my partner will be their at 7:45 get out the supplies and preping while I am pickup up the materials..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
My reply would be I started billing you at 6 when I started loading my truck.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
it's my fault too as I'm often guilty of the same ...
then again ...
I do remodeling ... not daycare work!
sometimes I slip and expect adults around me to have the ability to reason and think for themselves.
it is an annoying part of working in this business ...
anyone ever get all pissed their Dr was 5 min late for the appointment?
I'm sure the psychology has something to do with the fact that remodeling is done in "their house" ... the customer invites you in ... then secretly .. and sometimes not so secretly ... blames you for invading their space.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
"anyone ever get all pissed their Dr was 5 min late for the appointment?"I think if anyone had a Dr that was ONLY 5 min late they would be ecstatic. They are usually more like 20 min late.
the last time I went to the dentist I scheduled for 800 am. That way they can't use the "emergency" excuse.
Doc was 30 mins late
Last time I scheduled a dentist apt I told the lady "I just want the earliest you have" then she say "Ok, we've got your apt scheduled for 6:15 am." I am fine with that, apparently the doc did some survey of clients who did not visit as often as they should and found that most of them worked at 8 and could not leave for an apt so he opened the office at 6 and closed at 3 and business is growing and the early slots fill months in advance.
"They are usually more like 20 min late."LOL, My urologist is pretty consistently running two hours late!but he has a lot of good magazines.
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I don't have anything to add to your post but I've always thought this was funny:
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Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
exactly!
you'd think with all the drunken hacks with broke down pickups we'd get cut at least a little slack!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
LOL, "then secretly .. and sometimes not so secretly ... blames you for invading their space."One year I had an agreement that I would start on a master bedroom renovation the day after Labour day. They were to have been gone out of town a week before that. At about 7:30 I show up and start unloading stuff in the front drive. About eight the owner comes out unshaven and apparently just woken up. He asks, "What's going on here?"He had decided to stay on island for another three weeks and never bothered to tell me.
Long story short, he paid an extra grand and I had other things to do anyways for three weeks.
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3.5 weeks for a 5x10 bath remodel seems a bit long. Both from a time to do the work and from the time to be without a bathroom.
The price may or may not be good depending on the value of the house. Seems foolish to put a $7K bath in a $40K house.
Do you ever have anything worthwhile to contribute?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I think he might be constipated from trying to hold it for three and a half weeks
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I doubt it. All the $40k houses around here have at least 2.5 baths. <g>$40k was the lumber & decking package on the last house we did.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Hey, I paid LESS than 40K for my place..and 2 baths. Almost 5 acres too.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Like I said...Hey - at least you finally got that winter AC fixed!;)
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Yessiree..we be comfy.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Have you ever done a bath reno?
Do you have any idea what you are talking about?
Why don't you start a thread about something (anything) and we can tell you why you don't know your azz from a hole in the ground.
Joe H
ROTFLMAOWhen is the last time you saw a forty thousand dollar house?
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There's still a few 40k houses to be seen around here. Course, a bathroom renovation means cutting a second hole in the seat and upgrading the exterior door with the Kohler 1/2 moon motif.
I just bought one a month ago. Peace,Caseyhttp://www.streets.org
Best get that 7K bathroom installed right away to increase your equity!;)
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Subtract a zero, and that should just about do it. A $700 bathroom works for this house.Peace,Caseyhttp://www.streets.org
piffen,
you gotta get off that island, LOL.
within 10- minutes of my house I can find houses in the 40K range all day, every day.
problem is---they all need at least 40K of work-----and after THAT they are still 40K houses!
it can be pretty depressing---ya get a call from a little old lady in her 40K house who desperately needs a roof-----only it will cost me7-8k to roof her house----- no freakin way she can pay that-----why even look at the project--it will only depress me?
now---- alot of folks here mention doing the little old lady a favor-----but believe me----there is a limmitless supply of little old ladies in 40k houses who need new roofs-----and if I go down THAT road, what happens?---MY wife ends up at a little old widow lady living in a 40k house desperately needing a new roof and unable to pay for it!
Stephen
I did that once here.There was an old deaf-mute couple who had lived here most of their lives and back in the woods with little interaction with folks.Their roof was in bad shape, and the porch was almost falling off. they were nice folk and clearly living at the edge of their means.I roofed it for them gratis. The community fund got wind of it and so they kicked in to pay for the materials when I was half finished.I did some minor repairs to the porch and rebuilt a set of cellar steps so she wouldn't break her leg going down to get the jelly jars...Through it all, my wife learned more about quilting and my daughter learned something about sign language while I learned how to listen to jokes told in sign.It was a rich and rewarding experience and new friends added....Then things went south. The wife dies and the old man gets worse. Suddenly a daughter and her husband appear out of nowhere. long story short the old couple is dead and buried while the offspring enjoy the house. They are more or less decent people but it always leaves me wondering where they were when help was needed...The other problem from that job is then I got calls from the kind of people who EXPECT others to take care of them. That is a whole series of other stories all ending with me telling them NO.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
$40,000 is about the average house in my town.A really nice gentleman in his 90's lives block from me. He is getting to where he needs an electric scooter because he is started to fall frequently. I know he is broke because when I do work for him, I write my check out because he is legally blind. He always makes sure I put down what I did on the check because the state audits him. His wife has been in a nursing home for 10 yrs which has wiped him out. The state owns everything he has and is letting him live in the house until he passes away.Anyway, the guy needs a ramp for the scooter. I build it for material cost only.He is delighted. I am delighted. When do you have a chance to make such an impact in someone's life?The conversation turns to how long the ramp was and the lengths of the other ramps I have built in town are. I realize all the folks in town are calculating LF prices on my ramps. Its might be real ticklish when I bid the next one with labor and O$P.I'm still glad I did it, but it's hard to know just what to do. How callous does a guy need to be?BTW, my daughters car needs some work. About the same $ as labor O$P on the ramp :)
A number of years ago, I got sucked into helping all these old, poor widows.
I'd go in, do some repairs, and barely make enough to cover expenses. And then the next one would call. I think they have some kind of poor widows network.
I'd do the work because I'd feel bad about their situation, but in the meantime, my bank account was dwindling.
I finally had to say, sorry, I'm too busy to get to you.
I occasionally still do some of that kind of work, but I'm much better about saying no.
I pick up several houses a year for $30k to $40k (even got one for $18k once). Normally 2 or 3 bed, 1 or 2 bath, 1300 sqft with a detached one car garage. Problem is they need another $30 to $40k to make them habitable again. They can and do profit nicely at times ($10-$20k after all is paid). This is real flipping and not a coat of paint and granite countertops then profit $100k. So yes there are $40,000 houses out there.
"Problem is they need another $30 to $40k to make them habitable again. "That was my point
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I'm in St. Louis now doing the same thing. I usually find the fifty grand ones that need fifteen to twenty in them are the best bets for profit. This last one though was forty that I'll have about fifteen in. And I wouldn't call what I do (or you) flipping. I think of it as rehabbing. Other than picking out more or less generic hardware and not spending more money than is warranted, I do all of the work exactly as though I were planning on living there for years. Or planning on selling the house to a friend or someone I know, because that is a real possibility.Peace,Caseyhttp://www.streets.org
Working by myself, a complete gut job bathroom, with all new fixtures (not relocating any,) plumbing and electrical, will take 3+ weeks. I explain it ahead of time, and if necessary, have reinstalled a toilet at the end of the day and pulled it the following morning. If they really want the br remodeled, then they are willing (albiet occaissionally reluctantly) to make the sacrifice.
I don't know about your area, but we haven't seen a $40k house in 35 years.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
So where are you going to shave the time from below? Not to mention the things I missed.... Why do you continue to post here, I'd bet dollars to peso's there is not a single person here who values your opinion or il-adviced lack of knowledge?
Day 1 - Demo
Day 2 - Demo & Framing Clean up
Day 3 - Rough Plumbing
Day 4 - Rough Electrical
Day 5 - Slack time
Day 6 - S/R Hang
Day 7 -9 S/R Finish
Day 10 - Slack time
Day 11 - 12 Wall & Ceiling Prime/Paint
Day 13 Backer Board & Tile Floor Install
Day 14 Grout Floor
Day 15 Install solid surface or Tile Shower
Day 16 Finish Up Shower surround
Day 17 - Plumbing & Electric Trim
Day 18 -19 Install Cabs & Trim
Day 20 Misc. Bath accessories, shower doors, cabinet pulls Punch and clean up.
Edited 8/25/2007 4:46 pm ET by CAGIV
sorry ...
I'll try to do it faster next time.
and I'll bring an extra bucket too.
"The price may or may not be good depending on the value of the house."
that's funny ... as my price usually doesn't revolve around the value of their house!
kinda revolves around the value of my time.
I'd better fix that glitch in my bidding, huh?
Thanks for the help.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
when talking about design vs house valuation, it brings up the bathroom I did for a client last year.
Designer had a vanity costing $4000 in a $175,000 semi detached house.
Not the bathroom just the vanity!!! The whole job ended up around the $10k mark. minus that vanity. I built one for $1000. Ok so it didn't have the granite top, but neither did the rest of the house.
I do hear you on the folks who have no clue!!!!"No doubt exists that all women are crazy; it's only a question of degree." - W.C. Fields
There are a couple of reasons home owners have no idea what stuff costs.
Firstly, there is no such thing as average when it comes to home removations. Average for what? Average for middle class suburban house? Average for giant $2 million historic house? Most home owners are shocked to find that a bathroom remodel will cost $8,000. For my 'average' client, I tell them the average cost for a 'so-so' bathroom is $25,000. I have designed $200,000 bathrooms. (Don't get me wrong, I can also work on a budget and have done $8,000 bathrooms, but there is just no such thing as average.).
Take any product that you use in a project, and try to pick an average cost- Ceramic tile? Say you pick and average of $7 per square foot. Well, you can get some nice stuff for $3. per sf. I have a project I am working on now with lasercut curved onyx mosaic flooring that cost $100 per square foot not including installation! So the average number kind of goes out of the window.
Secondly, people look at magazines like fine homebuilding, and others, and see beautiful stuff that costs way above average. Yet the same shelter magazines run articles that talk about the average cost of a kitchen renovation. They may say that it costs something like $18,000. Well they don't say that you will never see an $18,000 kitchen renovation in their magazine,and that the average kitchen in their magazines is probably around $100,000 and up.
Honestly, how would people know what something costs? Most of their neighbors don't go around discussing how much they paid to remodel their bath. I appreiciate what Jeff is saying- people don't always listen. I have it happen all the time with clients who I have to reign in to keep within their budgets.
Just one piece of advice, the lower the price point of the work you do, the more you are going to run into this. For someone who can't afford and $8,000 bathroom remodel, every dollar matters. They are going to nickle and dime the thing because they need to. It can still be very rewarding work to help them get a wonderful new bathroom. However, if you don't like dealing with that issue, and you want your cost to be less of an issue, you need to move to clients where money is not the deciding factor, quality is. Of course, that can have its downside too. Yes, the client who picks $100 a square foot flooring does not even ask what the cost is, he doesn't care, he jsut loves the tile. But you better have absolutely perfect workmanship and absolutely perfect care and attention to the project, or you will never make it in that market.
I need 3.5 weeks just to find my tools and drive back and forth to and froe the lumberyard, PLUS the 3.5 weeks to do the job. However if i ever did a bathroom in a lumberyard i would be a ball of fire;)
lmao
After years of patiently trying to explain costs, time and pricing to clueless homeowners, I decided that it would be better to have them get a couple of bids from others before I got involved.
I'd give them names of prominent companies who did good work for top money, figuring that I was letting those guys have a fair shot at selling the job. But I also knew that I could probably beat their prices by twenty percent and still be close to what I would've wanted for the job in the first place.
"Oh, but we want you to do the work", I'd often hear after making that suggestion.
"But you're already saying that you don't know if you can afford my prices", I'd reply, "so I want you to have a good idea of what the job is worth before I spend several hours of my time, going through all your options with you and writing up a bid."
It was a very effective way to get past the crying and haggling about money, even when they decided to accept my terms without confering with other contractors.
I mean, what can they think or say when you insist that they get prices from other contractors?
If they really can't afford to do the job, they'll find that out too, without putting me through the wringer*...trying to get me to lower my prices by crying about how poor they are.
I'd tell 'em, "Hey, when I don't have the money for a project at my place, I go to my bank and get a home improvement loan or an equity credit line."
Deja moo: The feeling that you've heard this bull before. (borrowed from BossHog)
* Old expression from the days when laundry was done mostly by hand. A wringer was two rollers put together with a crank handle on one end of the top roller. The wet cloth was passed through between the rollers to remove much of the water. It took some muscle to do it, as I recall from my early childhood.
Edited 8/25/2007 12:59 pm ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Cant stand people like that. My average bathroom is coming in at around 9-12k.
I had a lady about three weeks ago ask about a bathroom. I had a feeling she was a tire kicker but I still cut a business trip up north short so I could go see what she had.
One of the first things she asks is "do you finance?" I knew right away I was wasting my time.
I wish I had that much time so i could waste other peoples time too.
When it comes to things involving any kind of substantial money spending, people mostly hear only what they want to, and it may not have anything to do with what was said.
You did the right thing by bringing up the budget right away, I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that.
I don't mind that people ask if I can do any better with my price, most of the time I politely tell them "no I can't". Sometimes I'll shave off somewhere if they seem like good people that I could work with. I'm not fond of breaking things down to show them.
I recently bid out a job for a guy who was very tight and controlling with the buck and he wanted me to break down everything including any and all markups and ultimate profits I would be making. He wanted to see how 'fair' I was being.
I told him I don't work that way. I give you a price, you take it yes or no. He wasn't used to being talked to that way I could tell.
I knew right then that even if he wanted me to work for him that I wasn't going to.
Work is plenteous around here and I'm in a fortunate position of them needing me more than I need them.
I'm always cautious when people want to save by doing parts of the labor themselves.
"When it comes to things involving any kind of substantial money spending, people mostly hear only what they want to, and it may not have anything to do with what was said.You did the right thing by bringing up the budget right away, "~~~Exactly.And it can work the other way round in the contracting business, as well.I had a driveway put in.Incredible deal. And I mean incredible.However...Before the guy ever showed up with his dozer... I told him I had a thousand, one hundred dollars. That's all That's it. That's the budget. That's all I am likely to have for a very long time.I waited for him for more than 7 weeks after his initial start date. I KNEW I was not going to make him much money, and that he no doubt had other jobs that WOULD pay him well. I was willing to be patient. I was happy he was going to come here at all.=0)He showed up a couple times just to have a look. Both... After his initial start date. Still, this is ok with me. He's thinking about it. He's trying to get a good idea in his head before he starts. All cool by me. He is walking around here and there, looking things over. Starts suggesting extras. I reminded him both times that my total budget was 1100.00 No more.He found someone that would bring my big 5er trailer up here when the driveway was finished. That knocked 100 dollars out, right away. So the budget was 1000.00.He shows up. Starts dozing. He dozed twice the area that I had asked for. Just a preliminary dozing.Yes, it was all needed. But I had a small budget and knew it. I stopped him as he started the other half, and he said not to worry about it. The equipment was there...Then he needed to go somewhere else and do another job for a few days. I am still very aware that he can make much better money elsewhere, so this does not bother me.When he comes back, he has the first load of gravel with him. Hops on his dozer and proceeds to do almost the same amount of dozing, smoothing the area, and going farther up, and farther out to the sides. At that point I gave up on asking if the dozing was all "in the budget" and just let him finish what he wanted to do.Then he dumps the rock. Goes and gets some more, and comes back and dumps that. Spreads it well with the dozer, and runs over it a lot, compacting it.Gone for a couple days again. (Emergency main road repairs.) Comes back with another load of rock.I am VERY concerned about what all of this is going to cost. He says if the job is to be done right, the rock needs to be finished, and done correctly.I agree but tell him again that all I have is 1000.00, and I am not likely to have any more for a long long time.He wants to finish, and says that if it goes over budget, I can just pay him later.I remind him again that it would be a -long- time.~~~At this time, I almost literally grab his ear and and make him listen as I tell him the full story. Retired. Very small fixed income. I tell him exactly how much I live on per month. What my bills average. Etc.I explain to him that I have a couple large bills already on the horizon, so it would be several months before I could even consider starting to pay him something. And even then, it would not be very much at all per month. "After all... I live on x per month. It's difficult enough just -surviving- on that."He says this is ok, and wants to finish the job.I say ok. Inwardly I am very glad that he wants to finish the job, because I know exactly what is to come if I try to deal with the 'driveway' the way it would be left if he just dropped it right then. I am THRILLED that I am going to have a real driveway after ten years of living here...So he drops and spreads 3 more loads of gravel that day. Starts with 4 to 8 stuff. Compacts all that. Drops 2 to 4 stuff compacts that, then goes to a particularly good grade of crushed with fines.By this time, I am out there with him the whole day. I even ride in the truck with him to get all the rest of the gravel. So there's plenty of time to talk.I explain to him again and again, exactly what my situation is. With every load of gravel, I remind him... I can't afford this. By the time we are getting the special crushed stuff... (The trip is 4 times the distance to get this stuff. But it is the best grade of crushed available around here, packs like concrete, and is available only to the commercial haulers. I couldn't have gone and gotten the crushed by myself...) I am getting very very nervous. This is really starting to add up.He had to work one last day, to bring in two more loads of the crushed. I swear by all that is holy to me that I explained my entire financial situation to this guy at least two dozen times. Each time, trying to be as clear as possible. I let him know in no uncertain terms that it would be a long time before I could pay, and that even then, it wouldn't be much at all per month...Dammit, every single time, this guy swore he understood. I'm telling you I was emphatic. I wanted to know with a certainty that he understood me. And that he knew it was ok to just stop anywhere along the way. He could have stopped at 1000.00 dollars and I would have been happy.~~~Job is complete. He's feeling good about having done a great job. I am thrilled to have a real driveway. And I hand him the 1000.00.He writes up a bill. Has me sign it.Says I owe another 1350.00.I am floored. No, not by how much it was, but by how little. This guy had to have done all the labor and machine time for just 500 dollars. I knew how much the gravel cost...I start to ask him how he can make a living like this, and he just smiles, bites his cigar, and gets to packing up the dozer. Waves me off, and we're done.~~~Fast forward about 6 weeks.I see him doing some work here, and stop to chat. He is biting my head off. Where the heck is his money ?I started to explain again, as I had explained before. I don't take an "I TOLD YOU" !! Kind of approach, because I don't like being that way in the first place. Besides, I like him. I know what he has done for me. And I know he has a family and needs the money.Besides, that simply wouldn't be constructive.Instead, I was fumbling around, trying to explain once again. Hoping he would remember, on his own...But he just kept repeating the same thing over and over again... "I didn't know it was going to be THIS long ! I didn't know you were going to take THIS long to pay me. etc...~~~Now, I'm telling you, I told this man, in every way that I could possibly think of, that exactly this was going to happen. But now, I'm the deadbeat.He is angry. And I am left with a ton of angst around owing a big sum of money that might as well be a million dollars, given my monthly budget... And a contractor that deserves the money, needs it to feed his family, and is angry at me because I can't pay him.What the heck was I supposed to have done ?Easy to say that I should have insisted that he stop when he reached my budget. Don't go there. You weren't here, and you do not know how this guy pushed and/or ignored his way right on through my insistance...~~~As Jeff said, in the end, I am left wondering just exactly what words came out of my mouth ? How can I say something very specific, so many many times, and yet this guy never heard it ?~~~Gunner provided a bit of an explanation to what happened, in an email to me.Apparently the guy just got caught up in doing a good deed.He knew I couldnt afford it. I told him so in so many ways that he simply could not have NOT known that. But he was caught up in the good feelings. He could see how thrilled I was. And I think that some part of him didn't care if he got paid. I get that way when I get caught up in doing something good for someone. I definately understand the feeling.**And then... His wife came into the picture. The one sitting at home. Not seeing the job. Not getting caught up in the same good deed... The one who knows the bills have to be paid.And now, I am the bad guy.=0|I'll add to Gunner's thought... I think the point where my explanations started slipping in one ear and out the other for the guy, is this... He was thinking in terms of how he could probably come up with an extra 1350.00 in a months time, fairly easily. "Can't everyone" ??Besides, I had 1000.00 in my hand right then. Probably proof enough of his conviction of the above... That from that point on, some part of him was convinced that I was just being overly cautious. That I could afford more than I was letting on. Whatever... Even though he knew, (because I had told him.) that THAT 1000.00 was borrowed as well.~~~Yeah, I know. Long winded story. But it does explain a bit about how these things can get screwed up, if BOTH parties aren't willing to take the time to try to understand what the other party is ACTUALLY saying, and not what we THINK they are saying...You can't judge the other person's budget by your own budget standards. Let alone the other person's intentions or understanding.
Three words... Contract in Writing.Signed by both parties before any ground is broken.Done.
Exactly.A lesson I had to learn as a contractor. Now, I suppose, one I had to learn as a 'customer'...=0)
Yeh... That'll work.
You should have told him in the beginning that your budget was $1100.
"I never met a man who didn't owe somebody something."
LOLSamT
ROFLMAO !!
Yeh... That'll work.
Sorry man, had to say it.
"I never met a man who didn't owe somebody something."
I knew a carp who did a deck job for a homeowner years ago. The HO was very eager to participate. So the carp set him up with a big box of nails and a hammer and says 'fill all the holes in those joist hangers'. The HO says 'that's perfect I can do that' and proceedes to get busy.5 min later he throws the hammer & box o nails on the ground and says 'I give up'.He had smashed his thumb twice.
When I hear the word "FAIR" when it comes to the price I wonder fair to who? Fair to him or fair to me?
What is "FAIR"? them getting a really good deal or me making a good living
I recently bid out a job for a guy who was very tight and controlling with the buck and he wanted me to break down everything
Got a call yesterday from a real estate agent on a proposal I submitted for a house that was closing, the owner wanted a price breakdown, all labor, material, etc. I told the agent that I don't do business like that, and when someone asks for such, I usually pass on the project.
Price breakdown starts early with the nitpickers, continues throughout most of the project, and usually ends in dissatisfaction. So I skip the BS and just pass.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
"I don't mind that people ask if I can do any better with my price, most of the time I politely tell them "no I can't". Sometimes I'll shave off somewhere if they seem like good people that I could work with. I'm not fond of breaking things down to show them. "
I don't mind them asking for a price break at all either.
I've said many times ... I'mma different kinda animal ... I always ask for a price break when shopping ... but I very seldom give one from my end!
I do how ever ... always pay what ever the "invoice" is for any labor type of work I have done ... the "going back" is up to me. Buy buying say .... a sofa ... I never pay retail.
so ... customer asks for a discount ... doesn't offend me at all ... won't give one ... but hell, asking is free.
And I will on occasion "discount" if I know I'll get a referal ... I actually emailed these people and laid that out ... "if" they're thrilled ... I fully expect them to sing my praises to each and every person that sits on that throne. Laid it out exactly like that.
I ain't shy.
But ... I will not give a detailed ...point by point ... breakdown. Ever.
One ... because I can't!
could ... if I wanted to spend 100 hrs at the computer detailing each and every detail ... but even then ... I'd not share the info I just gathered.
and even then ... I don't want or need that info.
I like to round up.
I don't care how much each tube of caulk cost or how far it goes ...
just let me build U a beautiful bath fer crying 'aught loud!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Sounds like you have a "tire kicker" on your hands. Might tell them to think about it and get in touch when they decide to go with it.
Seems to be a pretty typical scenario on remodeling jobs. Customers with unrealistic expectations.
The ones that get me are the customers that look at the price and say "Oh, that's all!"
I had a similar experience last winter.
Was asked to quote a basement reno in a higher end home. The wife walked me through the basement getting the old "I want, I want, I want" drill. The quote came in just shy of 30k.
Gave the quote to the husband and he just about fell out of his chair. He told me the budget was 15k. I got the quote down to to 15k and I got the job. The wife got used to disappointment. LOL
I know your frustration!
Dave
update ...
and sometimes the "win" is just delayed.
got an email today.
I had emailed them the "discount" if they did the demo. Before I could get deeper into it and explain all the uglyness of full mudbed tile demo and wall tiles set with razor lath ... she emailed back that they're just gonna wait till they can afford the turnkey job.
I'm to expect a signed contract along with the scheduling deposit check in the mail to hold the next available spot for them.
they need a month or so and understand they gotta wait be to next in line.
win/win ... cause like I told them ... I'll be looking to build something in a coupla months too! Deposit will go into the savings account and will just have to wait to be spent.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
"All good things for those who wait" Hannible Lechter
That sounds like every one of my customers. It got so bad, I didn't give anyone a price for any job without charging some kind of fee.
"I never met a man who didn't owe somebody something."