Well,let me be the first to pose this question during the blizzard that is hitting the Northeast tonight.
I renovated a cottage this past year and relocated the Kitchen to where the Porch used to be. In doing this, we ran the hot and cold water pipes within the confines of the floor joists. The room below the Kitchen has a GWB sheathed ceiling but is part of the Basment and is uninsulated, with a single pane picture window and exterior door – both very drafty. The house is on a hill so the front portion of the Basement is below grade but the rear portion is at grade.
We wrapped the 1/2″ copper feeds with $$ foam jackets. Needless to say, the foam jacket was not enough. I just got back from thawing out both the hot and cold water pipes using a heat gun for about an hour. Not too bad. Water is now trickling out of the faucet until the temp outside gets warmer. They must have just begun to freeze. We were lucky – this time.
I now need to deal with this. So far I am considering 2 options:
1) Heat Tape, wrapped around the pipe feeds which are thermostaticaly controled. I will need to cut through the GWB ceiling, remove the foam jackets, wrap the pipes (having the power end extend to an exposed part if the pipe feed, then rewrap the taped pipe (what type of insulation?) and close up the GWB ceiling. The problem with this method is that it is not code to use heat tape in an enclosed situation. Aside from that, they have regular power outages from fallen trees, which can last from 2 to 24 hrs. Heat tape is of no use then. Hmmm……
2) Cut through the GWB ceiling away from/ adjacent to the copper feeds, remove the foam jackets and then spray the feed lines with Great Stuff Foam or Hilti’s Insulating Foam forming more or less a solid block of foam enclosing the pipes full length upto the warm/ heated portion of the basement. Then I would close up the GWB ceiling and I’m done. So, does anyone have any idea of how effective the foam insulation is? I figure I can bury the pipes in a block 5.5″ x 5.5″ x L. Eventualy the foam would reach exterior temp but how long would that take,…. or would it?
Anybody got any other bright ideas? This is the only route to feed the Kitchen faucet. I thought of running it through the ceiling but at the Kitchen, the house is only a single story and so there is a roof above the Kitchen. Also, if I ran the pipe feeds via the ceiling, they would have to come down via an exterior wall. Not a great alternative.
F.
Replies
I have a similar problem with a drain line on one of my jobs right now. A previous owner ran a 11/2 inch drain (too small) for a roman tub in a 4 foot cantilever. I spoke with my heat guy and he suggested running a loop of the radiant heat pipe along side the drain. With heat tape you'd have to worry about unplugging it in the summer.
If you don't have radiant heat would it be feasible to connect a heat run into the joist cavity?
House has forced air not radiant heat. I could extend a duct to the joist space/ bay but then he would have to monitor when to open the duct. If I just connected a duct to the joist space/ bay and not include an exhaust, so it would run 24/7 during the heating months, would that be enough? Might the bay cool faster than the rest of the house and possibly allow the pipes to freeze between heat cycles?F
You shouldn't have to monitor it. It will heat with the rest of the house based on the call for heat from the thremostat. If you can, run the heat line into the cavity a couple of feet. You just have to keep the pipes above freezing, you dont need to make them room temperature.
One more thing, you can install a damper in the line so it could be closed in the summer (no need to air condition the pipes).
frankie... i don't like to wrap foam AROUND the pipe... i like to put as much insulation on the cold side as i can and SEAL ALL DRAFTS..this would probably be rigid foam
then leave the heated side of the pipe UNINSULATED.. so the heat from the room can keep the pipe above freezing..
BUT... the heat in the room has to be kept high enough so the amount penetrating thru the floor to the pipe can keep it above freezing...
I understand the concept but the only thing missing from the existing conditions is a layer of 3 1/2" FG insulation. On a 0 degree night, I am not 100% confident that would suffice. I could fasten the feeds to the underside of the flooring and therefore get the "radiant" benefit of the wood subfloor and then install 3 1/2" FG + 1" rigid isulation. That would give me about R17. Would that be enough? Hmmm..... The wheels are turning. Thanx.F
around here we just had a ice storm that left some people without power for 8 days. getting down to 5 at night. i had some rentals without power and i learned a new trick. when running water, run the hot water with a pretty good stream [gas hot water heater]. the heat off of the copper pipes and cast iron sewer kept evrything from freezing,. one house that had a digital readout warmed up about 6 degrees in a day.1 house had a electric hot water, by the 3rd day it was freezing up. kinda a low tech radiant heat system! as far as putting 5 inches around pipe, if it ever did freeze up it would take till july for the heat from above to warm it up.i'd just insulate as much as i could from the cold side and let the warmer side help heat the space a little. larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
"as far as putting 5 inches around pipe, if it ever did freeze up it would take till july for the heat from above to warm it up"Excellent point! I hadn't considered that. I can be such an idiot... so you're all not alone. LOL!He has oil heat which is dependent on an electrical ignition. No power, no heat.I am thinking about doing the FG and Rigid insulation combo and installing a duct leg that only has a 1x4" vent. This will be enough to heat the air space above the insulation and keep the pipes above freezing without robbing much air from the rest of the system.No AC, so that's not an issue.You all have got me thinking. Thanks. Keep it coming.F.
Hello
There are a couple of questions here. Being a cottage how often is it used during the cold months? It appears that heat is on all the time and that gets expensive if it is not used often. One solution that an Northern Island owner used was to drain down all his normal plumbing and turn off the heat over the winter. He installed a drainable 45 gallon drum in his attic with drain down capabilities. On arrival he lit his wood stove and got the air temp up to acceptable levels. He than took a pump down to the lake drilled a hole in the ice and used his now warm pump to fill up the barrel in the attic. At the end of the weekend he drained it and turned off the heat.
Cheers
Mac
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