Hi All,
A friend wants her kitchen cabinet doors replaced with shaker style that will be painted. She got one quote for full MDF doors — rails, stiles and panels that is pretty cheap. Now she wants to know what I think about it. I told her I might use MDF for the panel, but that I would still suggest wood (maple or poplar) for the rails and stiles since the hinges would hold better and the edges would hold up to abuse better over the long haul. The kitchen is not a show-piece kitchen, but I still think she wants something that will last. I was wondering what some of the rest of you would have to say about this, all MDF versus wood/MDF mix.
Thanks,
Brad.
Replies
Can the MDF idea... I'm in the process refacing kitchen cabs.. Well as soon as the "commitie" desides what final they want...
The exsisting is MDF and is about 4 years old.... They look like crap... Falling apart, torn loose, finish worn out, seperating.... and on and on...
The carcases are particle board/MDF... any that have gotten wet are history...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming....
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Do these have paint finish or a thermofoil totally enclosing it?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
On the exposed surfaces
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
That tells me not to listen to that salesman who says the thermofoil will make the mdf last forever.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Sure... Get one and put it in secure storge and it shoild last forever...
The MDF at the sinks is about gone....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Did I mention the blisters under the foil???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Say no more.
I'm starting to use more MDF on jobs but very careful about when and where. Once those chipped edges start letting moisture in, anything goes
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
And not much of a chip at that...
I never started using it for anything... nor anything in the family of same... I've changed out too much too often, so let's say I know better now..
A good place to witness it's behavior, durability and characteristics is in modular homes... (yes I work on those too)
Throw in kids and pets.... give the stuff a year or so - tops...
An anal-litic house keeper / clean freak using normal household cleaning stuff will destroy the stuff faster than any hoard of kids and pets...
You realize that there will now be a bunch of folks touting it as the greatest stuff since sliced bread...
Remember Aspenite and roofs... ROAR!!!
Ya get what ya pay for....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Well I will be the first to jump in here and say it. MDF is not the satan of wood products that you think they are, you Colorado people must just be hard on your sh!t!!!
I have replaced kitchens that have been in for a lot more than 4 years and the mdf was not all that bad.
Now I think the original poster here was suggesting that he was to make the doors, ala stick and cope, out of MDF, that in my opinion would be foolish.
But if they were going to get doors in mdf done on a CNC and factory "paint" (not quite sure how that process is done) I don't see it as completely wrong. Screws dont pull out of MDF if they are done right, install euro hinges with the hinge pressed in, the screw is not holding the hinge on, the plastic insert that the screws are in is what holds the hinge to the door.
To compare mdf to other products that bombed is not an argument at all. By that analogy than any new product should be disqualified simply because they are new.
JMHO
Doug
Edited 8/4/2004 9:18 pm ET by Doug@es
There are a collection of 55 kitchen / kitchenetts...
Some are in fine shape... Others are only "rough"around the edges while others are junk... The whole spectrum ya might say...
Most of the bathroom vanities are in real bad shape....
MDF belongs some place else....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Have torn out 15-20 year old cabinets where the thermofoil doors look brand new....don't personally care fro the look, but have seen enough to be convinced they hold up fine, and buy them in when the job calls for it. There are good ones on the market, and bad ones; made with good materials, and bad.
As others here point out, the question is: one piece door, or five piece door? I personally wouldn't want a one piece Shaker MDF door.....routing away that much MDF doesn't make me feel comfortable. None of my suppliers sell one.
A five piece MDF is another story;I know for a fact, at least based on what I've seen, that properly made, with an appropraite prep and finish, and REAL PARTICLEBOARD SCREWS, they will do okay. For Shaker, I would prefer poplar frame/MDF panel.
Personally, never ever had a callback on a thermofoil door. i use them where appropriate.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Now it's MY story time.
4 years ago I had to go to Israel to rehab the DW's family's apartment. It's in the Sharon Valley, hot and humid.
Part of the job was getting the kitchen cabinets spec'd out.
EVERY cabinet shop told me it would be cheaper and "better" to use MDF with a vacuum formed veneer for the frames and doors. They use Euro style hinges.
I asked about humidity and kitchen water. "Oh, no", they told me "Our stuff lasts for years in bathrooms, even". So, I asked for references. "Privacy issues", they told me.
"What about veneered plywood?" quested I. "Oh, so very expensive, and not much better". I nodded and took their card. I went from shop to shop, asking the same questions.
Finally found a guy who said Ply was much better, a little more expensive but worth it. No, we're talking USD$350.00 per meter (4 feet) Not cheap.
He's the guy who got the contract.Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the HandymanVancouver, Canada
Kitchen doors get used and abused. They're something that are used every day, so the quality, or lack thereof, in their construction will be seen on a daily basis.
I agree with your thoughts abut using MDF for the panels and poplar for the rails. Easy to fabricate, paints up like a champ, and the poplar will hold traditional hardware better than a core of MDF.
Base cabinet doors tend to get leaned on when they are opened, and that can tend to cause the hinge screws set in MDF to lose their purchase.
If the stiles/rails are raw MDF, the edges can fracture when hit. They're tougher when wrapped as piffin inferred, but still, overall, I'd vote poplar/MDF.
You all have re-enforced my opinion that wood will look better in a few years and any savings in materials now will be lost in the future trying to make damaged MDF look good.
Thanks.
I have never seen a real shaker style door done in MDF. I consider the shaker style to be a simple square edge stile and rail door with a flat paneled center, and no molded detail on the inside edges of the stile/rail surround.
If technology has changed, and they can get the CNC-driven cutterheads to give you that dead flat panel, plus the square inside corners where panel meets stile and rail, then thermofoil the whole thing, it would be a great alternative to a wood one.
But I doubt that is what is being offered.
The Homeowner's idea was to have the doors built out of MDF components the same way you would a wood door, not a door machined out of a single piece of MDF. Considering that, I figure the money saved would be only a few hundred dollars in materials, since the labor would be the same to assemble it all. Not a significant amount in this case.
Been round this bend a time or two. With either a one-piece or a multi-piece MDF cabinet door, you have to get mdf-rated hinge screws (they have more bite at a shallower angle and wider flange than standard wood screws). Using a "cup" design seems to hold better, too (but that may be from the jig giving more perfectly aligned screw holes).
You can get a near-square inside corner on a one-piece CNC door, but you need a very sharp (60 degree) cutter--it's "ramped" into the corners in two directions. Best results if you use a matching 30 degree angle on the simulated stile & rail edge. The trouble is you really can't vacuum press into those sorts of geometries, so you are left with some other finish for the mdf.
For a shaker-style, I'd prefer a 5 part door if I was going in mdf, and I'd want a shop that did not blink when I asked for one. I'd insist on seeing some installed, in-use, examples, too (not just the showroom, either--but that may be a bitter decade or so on the inside of the cab biz . . . )
Only use MDF doors when the customer is very price sensitive. Not that big of a saving overall. I sometimes make more money when I build with MDF. But not a lot.