I’m about to start making kitchen cabinets for our new house. We like the European modular with face frames and overlaid doors approach. I have two books, one advocates 5/8 particle core melamine all round for the carcases the other 3/4 plywood but 1/4 for the backs. We prefer the plywood system. The builder is putting blocking in place for the uppers but I think 1/4 is a bit flimsy for the backs (cabs are 3’6” tall) so I wondered if we would be better off with 1/2 or even 3/4? TIA
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1/4" will work okay, but you should be sure to use a mounting strip on the top and bottom of each cab.
Ordinarily, the top mounting strip is 3/4" stock, and mounted on the inside of the cabinet. I generally run about 4 dowels from the top of the cab into the mounting strip -- it is a fast and easy fix, and insures that the cabinet will never pull away from the wall, even if heavily loaded.
For the bottom mounting strip, I generally mount it underneath the first shelf, in the space reserved for undercabinet lighting.
Kudos to you for getting the builder to install blocking between the studs.............. that will make installation a lot easier.
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"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
You don't want to just put 1/4" ply on the back and expect to hold the cabinets to the wall with it.
I think Nikkiwood mentioned putting the cleat on the inside, I don't like the look of that, I put it on the backside of the box.
Yes the cleat will show from the side but if you put a finish end panel on the ends you'll hide all that shimming and cleats.
You can turn that cleat into a french cleat and make it easier to hang the cabinets.
Doug
1/4" works fine for the backs. Just leave no void to the wall (edit: where the screws go you want no void). You want 3/4"? That's fine too, just heavier. Likely glue-up will be a little more complicated.
My uppers are 51 1/2" tall, 1/4" coated ply backs in a dado. No problem, even with piffin screws and Villeroy & Boch. I like 3/4" melamine, frameless. More than one right answer.
Not large experience here, fewer than 100 kitchens.
What're you doing for drawers and pull-outs? Finish on the plywood?
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Edited 6/8/2005 10:03 pm ET by VaTom
Thanks to you and all others. Drawer carcases will be 3/4 poplar with 1/4 UV one side plywood botoms and solid 3/4 applied red oak fronts. Full extension Blum bottom corner mount slides. Cabinet carcass will be one side UV plywood with 2 side UV for shelves. 35mm cup hinges and red oak one side for end panels, under cabinet light hiding fascia and all door panels. Door stiles and rails plus all face frames will be 3/4 quarter sawn red oak. Will use adjustable cabinet legs with clip on toekick on lower cabs in place of normal 2X4 toekick.
For euro style cabs, I'd definitely go with 1/2" backs.
1/2" is way overkill. The only thing the backs do is keep the cabinet box square. Many cabinet manufacturers use 1/8". Its the cleat that holds the weight.
For small/home shops, a solid 1/2"-5/8" back (same size as the overall dimensions of the cabinet, screwed into the cabinet from the back) is a definite option.....you can screw in to the wall anywhere, and you don't have to worry about nailers, grooves/rebates etc. If you go with 5/8, you can use the same material for cabinet parts, backs, and drawer parts if you want....very good material yield, and simply a matter of cutting up panels. Many smaller shops are building cabinets this way, and it works well.
My opinion....if these are going to be frameless cabinets, forget about plywood......modern plywood, unless it's a combination core like Multicore, is substandard, and so inconsistent in thickness over even one sheet that it makes frameless cabinets very difficult to build. It can add up to significant problems over a run of cabinets. I get my students to do an exercise, measuring sheets of ply compared to veneered particle core or MDF.....they use digital calipers, and they are usually quite shocked at how bad the plywood is. I never use it unless I have to, but it's still relatively popular in the US compared to Canada and Europe. Plus, the veneers are crappy on plywood today, nothings flat, and it's way too expensive. Almost all pro shops that are building frameless use a particleboard or MDF core....melamine or veneered. If you go with melamine, the convention has been 5/8 for residential construction, 3/4 for commercial.....some residential guys use 3/4, but on commercial 3/4 is almost always specified and required.
Another advantage with melamine is that there is no finishing required, and you can get really nice melamines now (maple pattern for example) that look better than most finishing jobs on veneer for cabinet interiors.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Adrian, thank you. Unless I have my terms mixed up I think your comment about frameless do not apply to me since, in my original post, I said I'm doing face frame with overlaid doors. However, you have raised an interesting thought in that I was unaware that patterned melamine was available. I live in a rural area (western NC) so do you know of sources I can contact? Tx
sorry....I saw 'European modular' and missed the face frame part.
Don't know any sources in NC, but they will be the wholesale suppliers to the cabinet trade, or you could maybe buy it through a cabinet shop. You could try searching some of the manufacturers/trade names, and see who is a supplier in your area.....you could try Tafisa, Panval, and Panolam to start, but it can be pretty regional.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
OK but I have this (irrational?) problem with the appearence of internal screw cleats and don't want to do the french cleat or any other external cleat. So, given that idiocy of mine the question is would 1/2" backs do the job or should I go to 3/4'? Tx
I don't use cleats. The 1/2" allows you to place mounting screws anywhere you want. It's easier for me to rabbet the sides of the carcase and cut the tops and bottoms 15/32" shorter. Glue and brad. Each to his own.
hi
i make my living design mill work in the architectural wood working industery and i have worked on some very high end project [the national constution center in Philadelphia, the eagles stadium in Philadelphia and other just to name a few] to answer your question abought 1/4" cabinet backs, the AWI and industry standard is 1/4" backs i have attached a standard cross section of a wall cabinet if you need any help at all drop me a line be glad to help
Thanks for the response and offer. Unfortunately the attachment did not come thru' and the little icon on your message says 0KB so perhaps something went awry.
sorry the document did not up load i'll give it a nother try
Pardon me, but I don't see how you can mix the terms European modular with faceframed cabinets.
European modular is typically meant to mean frameless, with 25mm carcase thickness at sides, tops, and floors, and 32mm spacing of 5mm line-drilled holes for hardware and shelving.
If you're putting faceframes on them, they are just plain old American cabs. You should be proud.
Gene Davis, Davis Housewrights, Inc., Lake Placid, NY
Gene, wish I could claim I was being original but in fact I was just repeating terms and their association from Jim Toplin's and Danny Proulx's books. If I understand correctly they're both saying, or at least implying, that real American tradtional cabinets were not built in a modular fashion. I assume therefore they were typically built on site in situ. And certainally 32mm hinge sustems were'nt used. But who cares as long as they look good, are well crafted and perform the function intended? If I meet all three of those criteria I'll be a happy man.
I'm not a fan of either of those writers, and this is an illustration of why.....they use terms very loosely, and they both focus on their own particular (sometimes pretty unique), way of building cabinets......what you see in those books in not necessarily the 'best practices' or even common ways of building. Proulx's books in particular detail a hybrid cabinet that doesn't come close to taking advantage of the European hardware system (they're not at all 32mm cabinets, even though they don't have a frame)....they may work in a small shop, but there are a lot of things in there I would never recommend. I'm originally from the same neck of the woods as Danny, and I knew his company and sort of where he was coming from (never met him, but he sounds like he was a decent guy).....I just have a lot of problems with the way he recommends building.
Here's a couple of more references for you....one is a college textbook that is pretty good, you may find it in a library near you.....Modern Cabinetmaking by William D. Umstattd.....not perfect but pretty good. And the AWI/AWMAC Quality Standards Manual mentioned by furituremkr is an excellent reference, if you want to go that deep (it's quite technical, and geared to the trade)....don't know if you'd find that in a library, but it's in the offices of many designers, cabinetmakers, architects etc and I have them all over the place so there is always one handy.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
you caould take a look at Paul levines book. He covers euro style cabs, mat'ls, styles, construction, and installation, He also has a coreesponding video which is pretty good too.
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