Hi, After speaking with a professional cabinet maker who dissuaded me from building kitchen cabinets on my own from scratch, I’ve decided to try buying the components and sticking to assembly. I’m doing a traditional kitchen with face framed cabinets and inset doors. I’d like the flat panel doors to be of 1″ quartersawn white oak with solid panels similar to the cabinets produced by Crown Point of New Hampshire: www.crown-point.com. Can anyone point me to specific vendors of doors, faceframes, and carcasses, who do quality work. Most of the sites I’ve visited look pretty cheesey, specializing in melamine boxes and MDF doors.
Thanks a lot for your help.
Replies
Welcome to Breaktime! It's an endless wealth of information and entertainment.
Please take the time to fill out your profile - see the UPDATE PROFILE link at the top under "House Chat". Often helps knowing where you live - local conditions often dictate materials availability, condtruction requirements, etc.
If you scroll the discussion thread bar at the left to the bottom you will see a Search bar. Enter "knockdown cabinets" and be prepared for hours of reading, random rants and sidetracks and some really good experinece on your question.
One supplier that gets good comments (no personal experience) is Scherrs - http://www.scherrs.com
Enjoy!
Good Evening choifoto:
If you could be a little more specific on what your project consists of I may be able to help you make a sound decision on which cabinets to buy or make or a combination of both; but here is my two cents based on what info you've provided. Building your own cabinets can be a very involved process. I have built boatloads of cabinets ranging from simple and affordable to complex and expensive and to be honest there really isn't a substantial difference in cabinetry from store bought cabinets to hand made from the master cabinet maker you may be speaking of. Thats not to say that a master cabinet maker doesn't provide a worthwhile product. But if you want to achieve a quality result from less money and your not looking to reinvent the design process; store bought cabinets may be a good or even great alternative. Let me explain: Hand made cabinets from you or a seasoned expert are done for only for a few reasons, superior quality to sustain 40 or even 50 years of use and abuse, they are also often made by hand because a customer has to have the absolute perfect shade or hue of blonde in the grain of the wood to match the gold laced curtains they purchased in Brazil, or because they want something made of wood that only that customer can dream up and noone has ever thought of. If you don't qualify for such outlandish tastes consider the following. Stop by a local Home Depot, Lowe's or many lumber outlets have display cabinetry for you to pull on the drawers and open the doors. These cabinets that you will find are made very well and will sustain the test of time. The construction methods are printed in brochures that the retailer will be happy to give to you. Your first and absolutely most important step is to make an appointment with a kitchen designer. They will put your kitchen layout on a 20/20 design cad and be able to give you 3 demensional drawings of the finished product and make easy changes so you can see what options work best with you needs. They also can give you different pricing of alternative manufacturers, answer your questions and if they are good at what they do tell you how to install. Lowes and Home Depot will have this service available to you free of charge. The biggest phase in the kitchen is the planning stage, its all down hill from there. Its also very recommended to get different eyes on the design to be sure nothing is overlooked. If tolerances are not accounted for you will be waiting weeks to get replacement parts or cabinets. Dont be afraid to be pushy, let them know you are holding them 100 percent accountable for the accuracy of the design. Next on the list is cabinet manufacturers and construction of cabinets. Most store bought cabinets ie. Home Depot and Lowes etc have semi-custom cabinetry. These cabinets generally consist of mdf or partical board sides with the option to upgrade to plywood sides. I know your saying (YUCK) (PARTICLE BOARD) but think about it, the sides of cabinets that are not exposed don't need solid wood, they are not seen and are only forming the sides of the cabinets. On exposed ends they should be made plywood with a veneer matching the species of wood you choose. Why in the world would you want to pay another $1000 dollars for the sides to be solid cherry or oak or whatever. Save your money for the counter-top where the real abuse takes place. If you purchase Euro style cabinets the doors will fully overlay and the cabinets may not have as many options available to you. I would suggest traditional style cabinets; apparently this is already the path you have chosen and its a good one. All of your doors and drawer runners will then be fastened to solid hardwood rather than mdf or partical board. Quality manufacturers will supply 3/4 inch dovetail drawer boxes, and solid hardwood doors and drawer fronts. I know of only one manufacturer that makes quarter sawn door panels and that is Thomasville available at Home Depot. Thomasville is a name specific to Home Depot but you can find the exact same product sold in other dealerships under the name of Diamond. These are going to be exeptional quality and a very reasonable price. The company's quality control dept is as large as the plant their made in and they will replace no questions asked anything that may get damaged during shipment. Prices on these or any other cabinets are greatly determined by the door style and finish you pick out so you may want to ask the designer to give you prices on other doors styles by that manufacturer before signing on the dotted line. Prices on cabinets can range thousands of dollars for the same kitchen by plugging in different door styles and finishes so choose wisely. Thomasville does have a website or you can catch the link off of The Home Depot's website. To answer your question of inset doors you can also find these in stores like Depot or Lowe's but I don't believe they are quartersawn. Its kind of like breeding a dog and a cat and doesnt happen too often. They are two different architectures that are not combined unless fully custom and big $$$. Hope I helped and please let me know what you find out.
KARL.............HIT THE FRIGGIN ENTER KEY ONCE IN A WHILE!! yOU'RE GONNA HURT SOMEONE LIKE THAT!![email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Thanks for the tip, guess I could use an English class but I'm more interested in just getting the point across
"Thanks for the tip, guess I could use an English class but I'm more interested in just getting the point across"But you often don't.I will often skip over a message like that unless it is something that is immediately very, very important to me.And even them I will find that I miss part of it as I keep losing my place.
Karl,
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Cost is the main motive for my trying this myself. The estimates that I have been receiving are running into the $1,000 per linear foot range, and I have 29 linear feet. Now, this may actually reflect reasonable cost assumptions since it involves face frames and inset doors, but I don't have that much to spend. Building from components I've been told would be about a half to a third nominally, plus the cost of my time. Furthermore, while doing all the cutting and joinery is something I recognize is not practical for me to do, I think if I purchased doors already made, and carcasses already cut, then I would be able to handle the work. In your opinion and experience do you agree with this logic, or do you still think it's most worthwhile just to buy cabinets outright?
i'm glad i live in the midwest,1000. a foot is that granite countertops,sinks plus 500. a foot tip for the builder!!!? around here custom built cabs run 175-250 a foot.as far as building them yourself,my experence is building the carcasses is pretty easy,building the face frames are where the craftsmanship shows.they take some work and tools.table saw, jointer, 12" planer.miter saw and as far as i'm concerned kreg pocket screw jig. 2,000 should get you started and you could probably sell for a 1000. when done. then order the doors.on my 1/4 sawn cabs the face frames are not 1/4 sawn because the doors are full overlay and the only time you see them is when doors are open.larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
It took a while to read Karl's response. That's gotta be a new indoor record for a continuous paragraph - lol.
I do some custom kitchen cabinets, but the conversation usually goes downhill when we get to the dollars for a total custom set. A compromise that may be acceptable would be to buy standard modules from a production cabinet company then custom make the pieces needed to fill the odd spaces or fill a specific customer need. If you get the modules unfinished, the whole thing can be finished the same way and nobody will ever know the difference.
The estimates that I have been receiving are running into the $1,000 per linear foot range, and I have 29 linear feet.
Ouch!.
I can get hardwood faceframed cabinets with 3/4" thick raised panel doors, five species, 8 finishes, for under $225 the foot delivered and installed. Solid surface countertops would only add about $100 a foot to the cost. Ciphering a door about every 20-something inches and a base, a drawer, and an upper pull, even pricey pulls only add about $150 the foot. $225 + 100 + 150 + 25 (for whatever I've forgotten) is still only $500 the foot.
Now, I suspect that you are getting high estimates for two reasons. First, it's in NYC, so everything about the job is a bit more expensive than here in SE Central Texas. Second, you are specifying some high dollar upgrade items. Changing to a 3/4" thick door might change the prices a good bit, at least from the stock or catalog cabinet builders. Changing to a melamine-faced cabinet interior will likely help the estimate, too.
FHB has to advertisers who offer some pre-assembled cabinet components. These companies can vary a bit in what is offered. The primary product made are doors. Why is that? Well, doors are the primary work-flow bottleneck in production cabinet building. A cabinet door is as intricate as the entire cabinet carcass by itself. And, if built wrong, means the carcass isn't "finished," which means it's not a saleable product.
Did I miss the rest of the specs on what you want? Hinge style/overlay/opening; drawer guide type/open/amount; with or without pulls, trim, countertops? Finish type?
Shoot, my crazy neighbor here at work, with his three-man shop could probably beat your estimated price . . . <g>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
If you have the time to build yourself and your convinced that it will save you money than you may just have fun learning something new. But where are you getting the price of $1000 per linear foot. Most places are $100 or less. An average 10' x 10' kitchen for just cabinets in a raised panel oak door style should not exceed 4 or 5 thousand dollars for cabinets with doors and some nice options like lazy susans, roll out trays, and tip out trays. Granted quarter sawn will run extra but twenty nine thousand for cabinets is pretty darn steep for 29 linear feet. Are you counting base and wall in linear feet or how are you figuring?
Estimate is coming from Crown-point cabinetry in NH, crown-point.com. It is for finished over and under cabinets. Check out their website, if you want to see the level I'm talking about. In any event, I still need some sources of component parts.
[I hope you don't mind, I put in some breaks to make your exellent post more readable:]
Good Evening choifoto:
If you could be a little more specific on what your project consists of I may be able to help you make a sound decision on which cabinets to buy or make or a combination of both; but here is my two cents based on what info you've provided.
Building your own cabinets can be a very involved process. I have built boatloads of cabinets ranging from simple and affordable to complex and expensive and to be honest there really isn't a substantial difference in cabinetry from store bought cabinets to hand made from the master cabinet maker you may be speaking of. Thats not to say that a master cabinet maker doesn't provide a worthwhile product. But if you want to achieve a quality result from less money and your not looking to reinvent the design process; store bought cabinets may be a good or even great alternative.
Let me explain: Hand made cabinets from you or a seasoned expert are done for only for a few reasons, superior quality to sustain 40 or even 50 years of use and abuse, they are also often made by hand because a customer has to have the absolute perfect shade or hue of blonde in the grain of the wood to match the gold laced curtains they purchased in Brazil, or because they want something made of wood that only that customer can dream up and noone has ever thought of.
If you don't qualify for such outlandish tastes consider the following. Stop by a local Home Depot, Lowe's or many lumber outlets have display cabinetry for you to pull on the drawers and open the doors. These cabinets that you will find are made very well and will sustain the test of time. The construction methods are printed in brochures that the retailer will be happy to give to you.
Your first and absolutely most important step is to make an appointment with a kitchen designer. They will put your kitchen layout on a 20/20 design cad and be able to give you 3 demensional drawings of the finished product and make easy changes so you can see what options work best with you needs. They also can give you different pricing of alternative manufacturers, answer your questions and if they are good at what they do tell you how to install. Lowes and Home Depot will have this service available to you free of charge.
The biggest phase in the kitchen is the planning stage, its all down hill from there. Its also very recommended to get different eyes on the design to be sure nothing is overlooked.
If tolerances are not accounted for you will be waiting weeks to get replacement parts or cabinets. Dont be afraid to be pushy, let them know you are holding them 100 percent accountable for the accuracy of the design.
Next on the list is cabinet manufacturers and construction of cabinets. Most store bought cabinets ie. Home Depot and Lowes etc have semi-custom cabinetry. These cabinets generally consist of mdf or partical board sides with the option to upgrade to plywood sides. I know your saying (YUCK) (PARTICLE BOARD) but think about it, the sides of cabinets that are not exposed don't need solid wood, they are not seen and are only forming the sides of the cabinets. On exposed ends they should be made plywood with a veneer matching the species of wood you choose. Why in the world would you want to pay another $1000 dollars for the sides to be solid cherry or oak or whatever. Save your money for the counter-top where the real abuse takes place.
If you purchase Euro style cabinets the doors will fully overlay and the cabinets may not have as many options available to you. I would suggest traditional style cabinets; apparently this is already the path you have chosen and its a good one. All of your doors and drawer runners will then be fastened to solid hardwood rather than mdf or partical board.
Quality manufacturers will supply 3/4 inch dovetail drawer boxes, and solid hardwood doors and drawer fronts. I know of only one manufacturer that makes quarter sawn door panels and that is Thomasville available at Home Depot. Thomasville is a name specific to Home Depot but you can find the exact same product sold in other dealerships under the name of Diamond. These are going to be exeptional quality and a very reasonable price. The company's quality control dept is as large as the plant their made in and they will replace no questions asked anything that may get damaged during shipment.
Prices on these or any other cabinets are greatly determined by the door style and finish you pick out so you may want to ask the designer to give you prices on other doors styles by that manufacturer before signing on the dotted line. Prices on cabinets can range thousands of dollars for the same kitchen by plugging in different door styles and finishes so choose wisely.
Thomasville does have a website or you can catch the link off of The Home Depot's website.
To answer your question of inset doors you can also find these in stores like Depot or Lowe's but I don't believe they are quartersawn. Its kind of like breeding a dog and a cat and doesnt happen too often. They are two different architectures that are not combined unless fully custom and big $$$. Hope I helped and please let me know what you find out.
"Citius, Altius, Fortius"
Edited 3/10/2006 9:49 am by Heck
i agree with the previous post that almost any mid grade cabinet will stand the test of time, but as i say that i'm 1/2 done with a set of custom oak for one of my rentals. i know i'm nuts,should throw in some cheap prefab and go on,but... anyway on my own house i built the frames and had the doors made out of 1/4 sawn. just for a quick idea the guy charged me 6.00 a sq ft for materails and about 25. assembly per door. they averaged out at about 55.00 a door. looks nice but the 1/4 sawn is not as heavily "flecked" as old furniture.
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
You can go to someone like Scherr's and buy RTA carcases, and they will make you solid wood dovetail-corner drawerboxes, as well.
Scherr's standard box construction is melamine faced particleboard, which suits me just fine, but may offend your sensibilities. For a price, they will make your boxes of 100 percent veneer-faced plywood, which is another manmade panel product using wood, glue, and binders.
They will make your doors and drawerfronts, also, to your specified dimensions, but it will be up to you to make the faceframes.
A kitchen these days is something you tear out and redo every 15 to 20 years. It needs to last that long, but not 40 or 50 years or longer.
My theory of kitchen is go with IKEA, and then when you assemble you add lots of extra glue, fasteners, etc., beefing it up a bit. You save yourself about $15K on your kitchen. Maybe get your fancy doors somewhere else if you think IKEA's are too cheesy.
Then, since you absolutely looooove cabinetry, you take that $15K and go out and buy a piece of real cabinetry by a world-class master cabinetmaker to store your precious dishes in, by, say, somebody like James Krenov.
Actually, you could probably get a Krenov for half that.
The 25th anniversary issue of Fine Homebuilding has an excellent article on making cabinets. My wife and I really like the base cabinets with drawers we installed. Makes things alot more accessable.