The kitchen in my 30 year old house does not have enough dedicated circuits for the dishwasher, microwave, etc. The easiest run for the new circuits is through the attic. However, the attic is very low with only a 30″ peak at the middle. I can run new lines from the breaker box to the attic and from the kitchen to the attic but between the two is nearly impossible. The total run is about 25′. Any suggestions how to run the new cable? Is it required that I fasten the new cable to rafters. I thought that using PVC pipe might help. I’m hoping I’m not the first home owner to face this problem. Thanks,
Carlos
Replies
J-box
Thank you all. Great advice, especially the smurf tube. 4' fron the hatch is about right for maximum distance in which any work can be done.
Carlos
My understanding is that if the space is "inaccessible", you don't need to fasten the cable to the joists. But someone who knows more will be along to tell ya for sure.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Everything fits, until you put glue on it.
You would be correct - no need to staple in inaccessible areas of attic.
Likewise, cable fished into existing walls has no anchoring requirements.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Yeah, but what always has me scratchin' my head is -- what's "inaccessible"? The OP can obviously gain access to the attic space, so is it "inaccessible"? The 30" he describes is prolly enough to crawl around in, so his AHJ may say it's accessible.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
I fish the smurf on the "low" side of the truss, away from the relatively clear center part so it is out of the way and in an inaccessible location.
'round here.
Our inspectors would want some staples within 4 feet of the attic scuttle hatch and that's all. 30" would certainly not have a folding stair.
30" max headroom isn't too accessible and not likely to be used as storage or travelled by other than service people.
This assumes that the job will be inspected in the first place - might be if part of a major kitchen remodel.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Smurf tube is handy for stuff like this (the blue plastic flex at the box store).
That can be directly glued into the gray carlon boxes to transition back to a cable or you can take it directly into the panel or regular boxes with male adapters. You should be using THHN wire in this and that will allow you to put several circuits in the same tube.
With THHN the theoretical limit is 9 current carrying per raceway but the practical limit in the attic is lower because if the temperature adjustment. 6 is a better number. Using multiwire (shared neutral) circuits that gets you four 20a circuits.
The tube is cheap enough that you could pull a couple though. That makes a cleaner installation.
What you ask is not impossible, but does require some planning.
First of all, you'll want to open the wall above the panel all the way to the ceiling - btw, the Fein MM is great for running that cut right over the studs, making the repair much easier - and then, at the ceiling, remove at least a foot of the ceiling drywall, again following the joists.
Do something similar wherever you want to bring wires down into the kitchen.
Drill several holes through the middle of the top plate, each hole being at least 5/8". Larger is better, best is if you can make the holes somewhat oval. (btw, an impact driver with the Irwin speedbor-Max bits is the cat's meow for this task).
In an attic such as yours, I prefer to bring the wires out to where I can actually work on them in the attic. When you have a helper feed the wires through the first set of holes, you use a simple stick with a hook on it to catch the wires and bring then to you. You do something similar at the other end, using the stick to push the wires to where your helper can catch them.
Where the wires are accessible in the attic, they should be secured. For protection, it's best to run them along the sides of the framing, out of easy reach. Another good route is to run them up the sloped part of the truss, then attach them overhead with staples to the trusses.
You can get two pieces of romex under a staple, which is a good way to group circuits together. I do not reccomend sharing the neutral wire between two circuits.
Code requirements aside, here are the circuits I reccomend for the kitchen:
1- for the refrigerator. If you have both a fridge and a freezer or ice machine, they can use the same 20-amp circuit. Generally, these do not have to be on a GFCI, but you should not have a problem if the equipment is less than 10 years old;
1-for the disposall and dishwasher; This is not usually on a GFCI;
2-for the kitchen counters; these need to be 20-amp circuits, and need to be GFCI protected;
1-for the exhaust hood and over-range microwave. Place the receptacle where you can get to it without removing the microwave from the cabinet; it should be GFCI protected;
1-for counter mouted (portable) microwave or bread machine; should be on a GFCI; and,
1 more 20-amp circuit for the receptacles in the pantry, dining room, breakfast nook, etc. The latest rules call for the dining room to also be AFCI protected; if the receptacles are serving a counter, they need to be GFCI protected.
I reccomend keeping the dining room separate not only because of the new AFCI rule, but also because these receptacles see a lot of use in holiday season, as various food warmers and crock-pots get used.
Kitchens also often have enough lights -especially if recessed lights are used - to warrant the lights having their own circuit.
That's eight circuits .... enough that, in many cases, makes it worthwhile to consider giving the kitchen it's own panel.
For your receptacles, I reccomend that you use, if possible, deep 4" square boxes attached directly to the studs, with the appropriate fittings.
These are great options and I have printed your response to keep with me as I do the work. Since I didn't include all of the measurements and only a general description of my attic I will have to modify some of your suggestions. For example the access hole at the breaker box is 25' away from the attic access so reaching the wires with a pole is not an option. Nor is fastening the wires to the trusses. I have a very low slope starting with 30" at the attic access and then no more than 16" halfway to the breaker box. Another writer suggested surf tubes which may be awkward but worth investigating.
It was my understanding of the code that both the dishwasher and disposal had to be on dedicated circuits. I welcome any input from you or others who read this reply. Same for the microwave. You will be happy to hear that everything else you suggested is already on my list. Thank you very much for taking the time to help.
Carlos
Strictly speaking, there is no code requirement for either the dishwasher or disposal to be on dedicated circuits. In theory, they can be powered from the circuit that supplies the counter-top receptacles. Bad design, but legal.
The microwave is only required to be on it's own circuit if it is a built-in, above the stove type ... and even there, the requirement is inferred, rather than plainly stated.
Those are two examples of why I don't speak in terms of code requirements. Good design almost always meets code; "Designing to code" is almost always bad design, and probably in violation somewhere anyway.
30" at the peak? That, my friend, is a nice, comfortable attic. While you may not be able to reach into the far corners, you can move down the middle (unless you have some absurd truss design). Do yourself a favor, and have HD cut up a few sheets of 5/8" plywood, into 24x32" pieces. Screw these to the tops of the joists, and moving about the attic will be a dream.
Again thanks for taking the time to give me more ideas. Without going into too many details we bought the house because of location, price and the number of bedrooms. I did inspect the attic and thought I could live with it. The roof was purposefully built using the lowest slope the builder could get away with. Rural MD at that time followed different rules. I even have two breaker boxes, one outside next to the meter for main power and another inside and the AC required the ceiling to be removed so the condenser and blower could be installed into the only free space. Reality is pointing to hiring an electrician to put in a sub panel somewhere and let him figure out how to bring a line into the kitchen.
A long time ago some wise contributor to Breaktime advised that the worse thing a DIYer can do is to not recognize his limits. Save money elsewhere. But we're human so I still welcome ideas in the hope that there is always another way. Much thanks,
Carlos
If it makes you feel any better ....
I was faced with a similar situation at my place - though that was also caused bt the simple fact that my place was a duplex, and the panel was mounted on the outside wall - on the wall, not recessed back into it.
In that circumstance, sometines the best way is to run pipe on the outside of the house. Routed to tak advantage of the contours of the house, the pipe isn't that obvious; a favorite places include just under the eaves, or just below the siding, on the stemwall/foundation.
You're encountering a common theme of low-budget construction: doing the bare minimum at the start limits your options later. Lot's of folks are running into these problems, as they try to bring WW2 homes into the Electronics age.
Those 3:12 and even 2:12 roof lines are real popular here in Florida. A handy tool is a stick of PVC pipe (1" or so) with a wire hook on the end. Make it as long as you can handle in the attic. With that you can poke a cable up through a hole through the ceiling in a low part and grab it from the center to pull it up. Make a loop of solid red wire and tape it to the cable or smurf tube so you have something easy to see and grab. There is a trick to maneuvering this but once you get the hang of it you can go pretty fast.You are lucky nobody filled that center part with an air handler and duct work. They usually build that duct work in place crawling back to the scuttle and the only way to service it is to tear it out and rebuild it since there is not enough room to crawl by. I ended up cutting a new scuttle hole in my attic to get to the far end.
Good idea. I knew someone out there had a similar problem and a suggestion. Thanks much,
Carlos
Just one other thought in case it might help....Have you considered running one single line to a subpanel in or near the kitchen and then your branch circuits from there?
Yes I thought of that but space is limited in the kitchen and the breaker box has plenty of room. However, if I run into problems pushing or pulling wires from the breaker box to the kitchen your suggestion will get more than serious attention. Thanks much.
Carlos
Should be able to "fish" the cable through the attic. If the attic is low enough that you can't get into it, there's no need to fasten the cable to anything up there.