I have to do a kitchen in a high end penthouse condo, up under the roof in a room with short kneewalls and three dormers.
The kneewalls are tall enough to get some 36-high basecabs around the walls, but at the dormers, there are windows with sills down at around 32″ off the floor, requiring the perimeter basecabs to have dropped tops at each window.
The room is 15′ wide by 16′-8″ long. Here is what it looks like. I was too lazy to model the dormer windows, but there are three, one on each wall where the cabs are shown dropped. The basecabs all around the walls are 18″ deep . . . making them 24 deep would have compromised the passage width of 43″ which I have all around the center island.
As you can see, we can get a fridge in close proximity using the ceiling height in an adjacent space, and the range and sink can go in the large center island, which is 4 feet by 10 feet as shown.
Do you think this arrangement will work? Having a kitchen with no wall cabinets seems strange to me. The owners will have to bend over to get anything out of storage or back into.
There is no owner yet, but one wealthy prospect says she just loves the room, and insists the kithen be here, regardless of the fact we cannot do wallcabs.
Replies
One woman I know pointed out what was stuck on her fridge "I only have a kitchen as it came with the house"...I've a feeling that there is too much emphasis on kitchens these days. They've gone from a place to prepare food to the 'centre of the home'...whilst people are getting more and more fed up (!) with cooking.
Provided there's sufficient storage in what is there, I cannot see why the kitchen wouldn't work - once customers got over the initial surprise. Is there a pantry or similar space to take a lot of what normally goes in the uppers (and that begs the Q - what normally, etc)?
All the best...
To those who know - this may be obvious. To those who don't - I hope I've helped.
I saw some refrigerator that fit under the counter. like drawers
While kitchens have become less prolific in my personal needs these days (tahnks in part to my curren grill; oh yeah, baby!), the mortgage company could care less what I find of worth and not. They simply look at what will resell more easily in case I default on the mortgage and they have to dispose of the property.
That aside, kitchens seem more like yesterday's show-pieces when treated as a kitchen-only solution. And as you suggest, a pantry-closet can functionally handle what the common cabinetry can do.
no wall cabs seem to be the norm in lofts vs the exception... i can see where a few of those base cabs could be built to come all the way up and meet the ceiling if the dormers allow... killing counter/surface area in exchange for a pantry like cab...
a hanging pot rack with a shelf over the cook top maybe... venting for the cooktop?
most people can make do with less /what they have to work with
p
It's hard to tell if the angles would permit, but what about some open shelving in lieu of uppers?
What is driving you to have the island to 4' wide? It looks really out of proportion in that space. Even if you went to 42" you could get at least one wall with 24" units.
18" deep countertops are about useless. Once they put all the stuff on the counter that will always live there (coffee pot, canisters, yadda yadda) they end up without enough space to work (hence the big island?).
Here's a thought - how about the end and right walls (from the perspective of your drawing) having full-size wall units (or even 30" deep) and eliminate the unit on the left wall? Maybe just have 10" to 12" open shelves on that wall.
Drawers, drawers, drawers! That's what makes everything in the base units accessible. The only base units I have without drawers are under the sinks. In fact, the only base unit (other than the sinks) with a door is for aesthetics - to balance the sink door. It has pull-outs.
Why not make one or more full-height units? They could at least go to the low ceiling and could hold things like microwaves (I hate under-counter microwaves) or pantry-type storage. Is there a reason for the countertop on every base unit?
What is the floor to ceiling height at the front of the 18" deep units? It looks like working at the counters could feel a bit uncomfortable or cramped. Another arguement for a deeper base unit on the walls - to get more headroom.
Seems like this is one of those situations where Islands make the kitchen worse not better. Get rid of it and put normal depth (or greater) cabinets all the way around. Then you will have good head clearance under the slope.
Instead of wall cabinets use drawers with inserts to deal with dishes etc. I think there was a FHB article on that a while back.
Re: that dormer sill height, put a desk in front of one. For the others use full height tops then build a drop recess into the back of it in front of the window for plants. Just be sure to provide for possible liquid spilage restance. This use of low window sill space is frequently seen around here where people want deeper windows to match an exterior facade.
We also see that knee wall space being finished with a recess 31" high by 20" deep. Then HO's shove dressers etc back in them. It is an excellent way to gain floor space in a 1-1/2.
The dishwasher around the corner from the sink is horrible. Make one side 24" deep cabinets, and put the sink under the dormer window with the dishwasher next to it. put the range opposite in the island. Do this on the side with the fridge. On the other side, make the island have some open space for some stools. Make the wall cabinets 12" deep, and bring the cabinets on the side all the way up to give some storage above counter height.
The island should be voted off.
I'd set the bases a foot out from the exterior knee walls and use 36" deep countertops. This would back the sloped ceiling away from the user, and provide extra counterspace to make up for the lack of upper cabs. A canister set, for instance, could sit along the wall--with ample space in front of it.
OK, your move. Here it is with the island ripped out, and the perimeter basecabs all changed to 36 deeps, all with 12 inches of deadspace behind. The space between the longwall cab faces is now a little over 8 feet, so there is no room for an island of any size. All we'll get in each of those two back corners is an odd sized susan corner.
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The problem is as I described in the original post. I was too lazy to show it in my model, but each of the three outside walls has a dormered window centered on it, with the window sill down at something like 32 inches, 4 inches below standard counter height. That is why in this rendition, as it was before, the runs centered under each window have lower counters.
The only place to put a sink and range is in the 64-inch run of units, one immediately left and sort of behind the fridge, and directly across, in the foreground.
Better?
Gene ,
Are you able to use a down draft range ?
Our owner is committed to using only the highest end appliances like Wolf, Viking, Gagggenau, etc. A status thing?
I could not find any of those makers doing downdraft ranges. Not even the second-tier folks like Dacor, Thermador, or GE Monogram.
it's been 4-5 years, maybe Thermador quit making the downdrafter... Check again
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Progress perhaps?I envy your skill with Sketch-up, by the way. I tried some things with it last week, and was starting to develop a twitch. ; )A few thoughts:Could any of the dormers be changed to a skylight that is above counter height?Is there room for a peninsula across from what I think is the fridge?Put a steel skin on the walls and superglue rare earth magnets to the dishes and stick them anywhere you want! ; )
I see the need for the island but it needs to be smaller and add a couple inches depth to the other bases. You can make a nice tempered plate glass shelf setup hanging over it for glasses or platters that will let light through and display the items ornamentally
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
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When we re-did our kitchen a few years back, we chose not to have upper cabinets. We had plenty of space where we could have installed the uppers, but decided that we wanted the open space more than the storage space. It has made the kitchen feel light and open. I would do it the same way again.
Bob Chapman
I'm going to photograph the room tomorrow, so you can see how high up that ceiling peak is over the center of the room.
One reason I was going for some extra depth in the island, was to be able to have a space between back to back 24-deep cabs, for use in routing ductwork for a popup vent unit.
I know these popups don't offer much, but with the ridiculous cathedral ceiling overhead, we would have a long reach down from ceiling to vent, to do a chimney-style island vent, and then we would have to build a chimney on the roof to vent it.
Here is where I am trying to steer the owner on island cooking and venting. Black or white, his choice or hers.
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Thermador has a top range with down vent built in, buit it is a royal PITA installing and the fan and ducting take up more room than you would guess under it.somehow, I don't see this as regular cabinets anyway. This has to be a custome job all the way, so throw standard sizing out.I keep my pasages at 42". I noticed that woodweb just had a thread on that subject where a lot of guys and codes allow it to get down to 36" passage size. You really have to double check every thing to see that you can actually get all appliances into poosition ofter cabs and countertop, and that you can actually use thjem once installed. I had one where I planned the pasage to 42" but then actaul onsite dims made me compromise to 40" and with counter overhang it was 38". Come time to get the monster refrigerator/freezer unit installed, it was quite a trick to get the plug in the recepticle and then slide the unit in the hole. another inch less and I wouldn't have made it.
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I would keep the big island, because it will basically be all the usable counter space. I would do away with the counter space around the edges, except where the windows come into the space. Everywhere else, the headroom will be cramped, the counters will be too narrow, and light will be hard to get.
Drawers below counter height, open shelves above counter height in those corners. All those dormers should keep it feeling roomy even with shelves in the corners.
IMHO, of course.
zak
"so it goes"
I dont think thats workable at all. The low head clearance is next to the kneewall & that would be where people had to move around.
I'm just eyeballing from the drawings here, but I think that clearance over the edge of the counters in the first drawing is about 6' from the floor. I think that you're better off facing the center of the room in that situation, rather than looking at the slope of the ceiling 1 or 2 feet in front of you (as you would if the cabinets came out another foot or so, and there was no island.
Bringing a few cardboard boxes into the room and mocking it up would probably clear up the question quickly.zak
"so it goes"
I've used foam panels and duct tape to mock up spacial concepts for impossible clients to make them see the wisdom of my ways
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Hi Gene _ ,
Looking at it from another angle ( opinion ) why not do away with the big island make some of the base deeper , maybe 30" then make a peninsula on one end and some tapered wall cabinets over the deep bases .
The tapered wall cabs could be say 18 or 20" at the bottom and taper up to 12" or what ever the wall angle is . The shelves would be shallower as you went up .
good luck dusty
I don't have time tonight to read the other replies, so pardon me if I repeat what has already been said. When I built my "dream house" the kitchen had no upper cabinets and I don't regret that at all. The kitchen felt more open. Just off the kitchen was an old fashioned pantry like grandma had. By old fashioned I mean that it was a room with shelves, not a store bought cabinet. So there was no lack of storage.
It seemed strange at first to put dishes in a drawer, but I soon got over it. It did need a rubber pad so the dishes would not slide around.
Gene,
After looking at your kitchen I was inspired and hope to see it go. I tried your plan in a different configuration and think it is quite promising. I did not like the refrigerator placement so I used the island as a custom refrigeration composition. It involves 3 undercabinet friges and two freezer drawers on the opposite side. also included is a built in oven, dishwasher, built in cutting board, two sinks (one w/drainboard), built in microwave, bar, even a corner wine rack. I tossed in a couple of scale people to show that the headroom is close but acceptable. enjoy.
gk
Nice drawing there. Did you do that with Sketchup?
This reply is to you and Gene both.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure that I would never use those side counters for anything except storage, and maybe food prep in an emergency. I wouldn't like looking into the ceiling right there in front of me. However, for some folks unused counter space would be fine, as long as there was good workspace, too- like the island.
The sink is in a nice place, except that I think it would be uncomfortable at that height- average height people would have to bend over to reach items at the bottom of the sink. That's important for me, as I've never owned a dishwasher- for others, maybe not so much. I would suggest raising the bottom of the window for the sink counter, to make it comfortable, and leaving the other two windows low, one for a pastry/dough kneading counter, the other one for whatever. In the total cost of a kitchen, replacing one window with a shorter one doesn't seem like an impossible cost.zak
"so it goes"
Wow! Thanks! I came to your post after having done this latest hallucination. Three views are shown.
Before I show them, here's a pic of the space. All the drying shingles bungle up the view, but you can get the flavor.
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Of the three dormered windows, one has a crummy view, and we thought we might blank it off with a 36 x 84 SubZero or GE Monogram fridge, flanked on each side with narrow but tall cabs. The sink goes under a window that is changed to one shorter in size, so we can get a fullheight surface under it. The endwall dormer window has a little desk nook. Cooktop is in the island.
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The island has the bank of cabs on the cooktop side at 24-3/4 deep, the opposite side at 12-3/4 deep (I was thinking glass door cabs) and a 4.5 void between for the downdraft hood ductwork.
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I like your builtin oven with microwave atop. What do you think of this new fridge deal?
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Attached is a section view of how we might handle the critical task of getting light to those perimeter countertop areas. It shows a Juno Trac 12 MR11 fixture, about a 40 degree beamspread, getting light right to the counter, without your shadow getting in the way.
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We thought we might put a pantry closet where the fridge was in the earlier dream. Howzzat sound?
While I was there today, I took a pic of the streetside elevation.
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A closer view of one of the entries.
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And a couple views of the lakeside elevations. That penthouse kitchen is way up in the top hat with the little dormers.
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Gene -
Your latest design with the fridge in the blanked-off dormer and the sink at a shorter window seems to work very well. However with all these changes doesn't the room loose some of the drama of its original design?
No way of convincing the HO that there might be a better space within the loft for the kitchen?
Please keep us informed of the progress.
Thermador did make a cooktop with down draft hood. Had one in my house that I ripped out due to its lousy location.
Good Luck.
JW
Edited 8/14/2006 10:37 pm ET by whaleninc2000
That looks like one of those houses you might see featured in FH. ;-)
Gene,
wow, that's a pretty sweet house...good project on a good site makes for plenty enjoyable work. I like the changes you made to the plan. It leaves some wide sides to the refrigerator cabinet...maybe you could flank it with some logs or something.
I played with the plan some more and gave it a penninsula bar that holds the undercab friges and freezer drawers then I broadened the microwave cab to provide storage for the small appliances and more wine. The recessed countertop areas make for a circular work pattern starting at the friges, then going to food prep, cooking, and finally cleanup. I think the height of the countertops will depend on the client: short, elderly, or handicapped would certainly prefer low counters...there is an elevator in that house right ;-)
sketchup is so much fun, thanks for posting the the interesting kitchen problem for me to play with. good luck on the project.
gk
Here it is the way the owner likes it. I thought you might like to see.
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There seems to be an all out war against wall cabinets right now. Why should your loft be any different. I don't get the beef with wall cabinets. Some say it blocks window space. That is a point, but hte main beef is the reaching for stuff.
WOW! I personnally would rather reach up adn out a bit than to bend over low to get at stuff. So teh war is an odd one to me. But people like the idea of ditching the wall cabinets, so go for it.
I don't condone a war against cabinets, only against traditional building practices that don't fit the space or the occupant. In the remodeling trade I am called in to tear out alot of things that are non-logical. my current project involves a "walk in closet" that is 6' deep and two feet wide; it is next to a "master bathroom" that is 6' x 6'. both were more about the idea of having a WIC and a MB without the logic of making them work. I also love tearing out unnessesary double sinks in small bathrooms, decorative vinyl shutters, and "built in" refrigerators that stick out into the kitchen.
I guess it's a love-hate thing because it is where I make my money and it makes me look good to redo things right and/or logical.
gk