OK, The overall room measures 13×22(combining both existing rooms). I want to: move the stove where the fridge is now, put a new counter depth fridge with a pantry where the green hutch is, put an island with seating/table built in to the far end (towards the french doors). the original stove position will become counter space. A 3ft. center island counter leaves me 3ft. between sink and 3ft. between new fridge location. Could I narrow the island countertop, then widen it when it gets to the seating area? ALL opinions/suggestions greatly appreciated!
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What's in the 4th corner of the room (not shown in your pics)?
Moving the fridge and the range makes for a convenient standard triangle but sticking an island in the middle is counterproductive. You would be blocking your free movement in that triangle as well as dodging the island as you attempt to open the fridge door.
Moving the range also requires (ask the wife, she knows) a countertop to the left as well as the original to the right and when you add the fridge and the pantry to the wall where the hutch is now I see an additional footprint of at least 6" out from that wall, maybe more, which will cripple the traffic through the door.
If you want a countertop seating and eating area in lieu of the current table and chairs, I would suggest thinking about removing that short dividing wall next to the range and turning the existing countertop at that point to creat a peninsula at the end of the kitchen. Use part of the space freed up when you move the range to accomodate the desired width of the penensula.
I would leave a minimum of 4' clear space between the wall and the end of the peninsula. That would give you 9' of seating area on the far side also leaving plenty of room behind the stools/chairs for traffic through the french doors. If you do build a peninsula leave more than enough wall space to completely open the french door.
A 36" wide countertop would give you a 12" knee space and a bunch of cabinet space on the other side.
As an alternative, a countertop could be extended from the fridge/pantry to turn as a peninsula from that wall, leaving the 4' wide walkway the other way.
MG, could you sketch up a floor plan, I've had a bit of a problem remembering your words when looking at the pictures.
You've got pretty good amount of room, I think you might be able to accomodate a working island. Seating tends to eat up some room.
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Quittin' Time
MG, what you have there is very similar to what we had when we moved into this house 10 years ago. The room is 12' 8" X 16", I wish I could have an extra 2-3' lengthwise.
There was a pantry and fridge on the wall where your hutch is and the stove was at where you fridge is. The sink and window were exactly where yours are and there was a peninsular where your short wall is. The eat-in area was where you have your two chairs. On the fourth corner there was a door to the dining room.
We put in a cooktop where the stove was, put in a 24" deep fridge and wall/micro ovens on the same wall and 18" deep pantries on the sides to help traffic flow and put in a 30X48 island. We have thought about all the options that you and Ralph put forth and that's what we settled on.
In your case widening the island into an eating area is feasible because you have the length but in our case it'd have blocked out the traffic flow. Still I think the traffic flow can be quite awkward if you join the island and the eat-in. You could do a stepdown from the island to a table height eat-in and that should minimize the visual impact.
Although the island is in the path of the working triangle and we thought(fought? :) ) hard about it before putting it in, we find that the island works out as we expected. The island provides a lot of storage space and is very convenient as a work station, doing baking, unloading grocery, and as a transfer surface to the cooktop and sink. It would help if you keep the fridge closer to the cooktop. The best thing about this layout is if I just want to get to the fridge for a drink or snack I don't have to go to the far end from the entrance and the fridge is close to the eat-in area too. There is a wine rack built into the island facing the fridge which works out better than I had planned. The only thing that I could have done which I didn't was to put in a bar sink on the island but without the sink as it is it functions great.
Now I just have to squeeze in an eat-in area.
Do you actually use any of those 3 doors, or they just decorative? They sure take up a lot of wall space and limit your options. Could you leave the openings and lose the doors?
As one of the other posts mentions, the island in the middle of your work triangle is usually a bad idea. If you put a sink in the island, it could work out.
Definately leave plenty of room on both sides of the stove - I have about 2' to the left and it's just enough IMHO.
Be sure to consider traffic patterns. Are those two openings with the glass doors the only ones, or is there another one in the 4th corner? Where do the groceries come in? How does the food get to the table? What happens when you have a party and everyone wants to hang out with you in the kitchen? If the fridge door is open does all traffic stop, and if so is that a problem? (Been there, done that, it sure was a problem in my situation). 3' between counters is the bare minimum; I prefer 4' or even 4.5' if there is a lot of action / lots of cooks in the kitchen.
Getting rid of the pony wall could be a way to improve traffic flow. A curving, varying-width island could work as well.
I think you have a good base to work from - let us know how it turns out.
Good advice from Ralph, etc, above.
I too had a bit of trouble picturing the before/after so I threw together a quick sketch. Of course I had to wing it on many dimensions. (yea, I know, I need to get a life... :-) Scale may have gotten messed when I saved it as a gif so everyone could look at it.
Anyway, the kitchen seems big but I think once you really analyze it you don't have enough room for an island capable of being a real eating area. Unless you want to mostly give up the "eat in kitchen for 4" feature.
Think about this: If you have a 13' width (156") with cabinets/counter tops on each side (~25" deep each) then having a absolute minimum of 36" between the countertops and the island (72") then 156" - 50" - 72" = 34" max island width, which is not too grand...
Like said above, consider the work triangle (un-impeded by an island) or maybe even make the island part of the work triangle (downdraft or other cook top?). This includes your cook top, fridge and sink. You need "landing space" near each of the 3 elements. Also, how about a dish washer next to the sink? I'd loose the french doors if possible. If you really want the island, consider the making the area in front of the french door opening the place for the table. Based on the style of your home (which BTW looks nice) one of those piece of furniture looking islands might look good, but again, I just really can't see it supporting seating for more than 2 unless you don't install stuff where the hutch is now. The kneewall should probably go too if you want an island.
I like the Idea with an island, to get the food preparation Triangle smaller,and add this in ...Get the most counter top and cabinet space you can! move that refrigerator over left,hang your microwave from your cabinet...If you can manage the refrigerator closer to the door you use to bring in the groceries, put it there and refigure the sink and stove if need be.
SCRIBE ONCE CUT ONCE!
Wow, Thanks all, great stuff. Forgot to mention that the kneewall goes, the french doors open up to the addittion, but the kitchen door to the garage could go...oh, and the microwave will go under the island, in an open shelf that faces the new oven area...
I'm building a house right now with the micro mounted in the island. It's just above knee level. I think it's a good place if you intend to almost never use it since you have to bend down to set it/load/unload/check food. Other than that, above the range and vented or otherwise wall mounted at eye level is about the must useful position and doesn't use up counter space.
At our house, we use the micro more than any other appliance.
Other than that, above the range and vented or otherwise wall mounted at eye level is about the most useful position and doesn't use up counter space.
Until someone short pulls something out that is scalding hot!
Just had an incident at a house that I'm working on where the women(about 4' 11")pulled something out and it spilled on her, burned her bad, I dont think she was aware of how hot the stuff was that she was taking out.
I know that I'd never have one where the stuff would possibly be higher then the average persons eye sight that would be using it, not necessarily small kids but short man or women. Just something to think about.
Doug
Good point, and it is something to think about, and there are always exceptions. On the other hand I guess you either have to build for the buyer/owner or the average sized person. Or maybe we should be installing all 8' doors just in case a basket ball player buys the house. :-)
Edited 12/25/2005 11:14 pm ET by Matt
Regarding the placement of the microwave.
Here's where I put mine since I had a vacant space in the wall behind the cabinets. Still needs the trimout so disregard the unfinished look.
It's mounted on very heavy duty glides I salvaged from an old disk drive cabinet so it can be pulled forward if you don't want to reach or are too short to reach the stuff on the inside. We hardly ever pull it out.
Neat idea - never saw that before. Great use of space.
Along the same lines, when possible, I like to have a kitchen framed such that there is an alcove behind where the fridge goes so that it can slide back some and then even a standard sized fridge won't stick out from the countertops.
Wow you guys are fast I should let you design my kitchen.
Jeff