FHB Logo Facebook LinkedIn Email Pinterest Twitter X Instagram Tiktok YouTube Plus Icon Close Icon Navigation Search Icon Navigation Search Icon Arrow Down Icon Video Guide Icon Article Guide Icon Modal Close Icon Guide Search Icon Skip to content
Subscribe
Log In
  • How-To
  • Design
  • Tools & Materials
  • Restoration
  • Videos
  • Blogs
  • Forum
  • Magazine
  • Members
  • FHB House
  • Podcast
Log In

Discussion Forum

Discussion Forum

Lacking Foundation

| Posted in General Discussion on November 18, 2002 09:49am

My wife and I are restoring/un-renovating a 1912 two story four-square. Part of the project invoves fixing a single story addition added sometime in the ’80s. Unfortunately the addition has an unheated crawl space with a questionable foundation. The original structure has a full basement with concret footings at about five feet below grade. The foundation walls are concrete block. The addition is 25 feet wide (same width as the original sturcture) and ten feet in depth. The foundation consists of five 10 inch dianeter concrete piles of unkown depth. They are placed at each corner of the addition with the fifth in the middle of the long, outside wall. The floor is constructed of fir 2×10 joists running parralel to the long wall. The joists are 12 foot 3 inch in length. Rim joists (no hangers) support the floor joists at either end of the structure. The rim joists are supported by the corner piles. There is a centre joist header (double 2×10’s, no hangers) which supports the other end of the floor joists. The header is supported by a 4×6 beam. One end of the beam is sitting on the centre pile and the other is supported by a telepost inside the basement of the original sturcture. There are also 8 inch x 12 inch poured concrete grade beams between each of the piles (not sure if the grade beams are pinned to the piles). Partition walls of concrete blocks sits on the grade beams (between the piles) but do not support the rim joists (2 inch gap to the rim joists). The crawl space is currently unheated and contains the spill material from the piles. There appears to be a poured concrete slab under the spill piles, probably a padio slab existing before the additon was constructed. Local building codes call for footings at least four feet below grade (frost line). I would like to seal the crawl space and heat it and also improve the foundation for a possible second story additon.

The solution I came up with involves replacing the piles and grade beam with a rubble trench foundation complete with a poured concrete footing at grade and a 2×6 PWF foundation wall. I would like to complete the work myself with as little expense as possible and am prepared to hand dig the trench if necessary. I plan to support the structure durring the excavation work with timber supports laid out on the concrete slab. The new foundation wall would be sheeted with PWF plywood, parged with concrete to match the original structure and insulated with fibreglass batts.

I am interested in comments or suggestions regarding the suitability of my solution as well as tips for the construction. I’m particularly interested in knowing whether a rubble trench foundation is suitable for an additon to a struction with a different foundation system.

Reply
  • X
  • facebook
  • linkedin
  • pinterest
  • email
  • add to favorites Log in or Sign up to save your favorite articles

Replies

  1. Piffin | Nov 20, 2002 04:12am | #1

    You provided a lot of info there so I may have gotten confused a little. It sounds like, if I might sum it up, you have a conglomeration of different stuff, not all of it doing anything and you propose to add to the mess.

    You mention that the local code requires that the foundation go to four feet below grade but then propose to replace the existing with a rubble wall placed on a footing at grade level. If that is correct, You would be building a foundation wall subject to frost heaves.

    Your floor framing system might be barely adequate, but adding another floor above definitly calls for more.

    Assuming (see the little red flag go up?) that your concrete pilings were placed to four feet deep, you could leave them to continue to support the corners while you dig the trench (hand digging is NOT a way to save money IMO) down to four feet or so between the pilings and pour the footer there. If you are looking for a stone wall look, use 12" block to build up to grade level and then lay 6" or 4" block up to the sill and face the outside with stone. You can make the stone disguise the corner posts or chisle them out one at a time as the rest of the wall takes load.

    .

    Excellence is its own reward!

    "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius

    1. inRitchie | Nov 20, 2002 07:46am | #2

      Thanks for the advice (I did get caught up in description). I should have mentioned that the local code for a foundation wall requires continuos footings a minimum of four feet deep. Code for pile and grade beam system requires 12 inch diameter piles, 12 feet deep on 8 foot centres. I was thinking of cutting the piles off at grade and pouring a proper concrete grade beam over, but the unkown pile depth and wide spacing made that seem too risky. Second option, as suggested by piffin, involed trenching, pouring a concrete footing four feet below grade and building a concrete block foundation wall. The footing and wall system is probably the best option, however I was intrigued by the rubble filled trench system. Does anyone have experience with this type of foudation? As I understand it, this type of foundation involves a continuous concrete footing poured at grade over a trench filled with crushed rock. The trench would be dug to frost line and would include some sort of drainage such as weeping tile and a sump.

      inRitchie

      1. Piffin | Nov 20, 2002 11:37pm | #3

        That's one you'd have to get approved by your local inspector. My biggest concern would be to keep water out of it. I know you mention drains but if they fail the rubble will act as a sump for groundwater to drain into instead of out of. It will then freeze and heave your concrete and addition up out of the ground. I have a hard time thinking what the advantage is to doing it that way..

        Excellence is its own reward!

        "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius

      2. TROYLS1 | Nov 21, 2002 01:55am | #4

        Here is a good link for a rubble trench in action. 

        http://www.daycreek.com/dc/HTML/journal102598.htm

Log in or create an account to post a comment.

Sign up Log in

Become a member and get full access to FineHomebuilding.com

Video Shorts

Categories

  • Business
  • Code Questions
  • Construction Techniques
  • Energy, Heating & Insulation
  • General Discussion
  • Help/Work Wanted
  • Photo Gallery
  • Reader Classified
  • Tools for Home Building

Discussion Forum

Recent Posts and Replies

  • |
  • |
  • |
  • |
  • |
  • |
View More Create Post

Up Next

Video Shorts

Featured Story

FHB Summit 2025 — Design, Build, Business

Join some of the most experienced and recognized building professionals for two days of presentations, panel discussions, networking, and more.

Featured Video

How to Install Exterior Window Trim

Learn how to measure, cut, and build window casing made of cellular PVC, solid wood, poly-ash boards, or any common molding material. Plus, get tips for a clean and solid installation.

Related Stories

  • Guest Suite With a Garden House
  • Podcast Episode 688: Obstructed Ridge Vent, Buying Fixer-Uppers, and Flashing Ledgers
  • FHB Podcast Segment: Finding the Right Fixer-Upper
  • Keeping It Cottage-Sized

Highlights

Fine Homebuilding All Access
Fine Homebuilding Podcast
Tool Tech
Plus, get an extra 20% off with code GIFT20

"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.

Get home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox

Signing you up...

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
See all newsletters
See all newsletters

Fine Homebuilding Magazine

  • Issue 332 - July 2025
    • Custom Built-ins With Job-Site Tools
    • Fight House Fires Through Design
    • Making the Move to Multifamily
  • Issue 331 - June 2025
    • A More Resilient Roof
    • Tool Test: You Need a Drywall Sander
    • Ducted vs. Ductless Heat Pumps
  • Issue 330 - April/May 2025
    • Deck Details for Durability
    • FAQs on HPWHs
    • 10 Tips for a Long-Lasting Paint Job
  • Issue 329 - Feb/Mar 2025
    • Smart Foundation for a Small Addition
    • A Kominka Comes West
    • Making Small Kitchens Work
  • Issue 328 - Dec/Jan 2024
    • How a Pro Replaces Columns
    • Passive House 3.0
    • Tool Test: Compact Line Lasers

Fine Home Building

Newsletter Sign-up

  • Fine Homebuilding

    Home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox.

  • Green Building Advisor

    Building science and energy efficiency advice, plus special offers, in your inbox.

  • Old House Journal

    Repair, renovation, and restoration tips, plus special offers, in your inbox.

Signing you up...

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
See all newsletters

Follow

  • Fine Homebuilding

    Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X
    • LinkedIn
  • GBA Prime

    Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • YouTube
  • Old House Journal

    Learn how to restore, repair, update, and decorate your home.

    Subscribe Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X
  • Fine Homebuilding

    Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X
    • LinkedIn
  • GBA Prime

    Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • YouTube
  • Old House Journal

    Learn how to restore, repair, update, and decorate your home.

    Subscribe Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X

Membership & Magazine

  • Online Archive
  • Start Free Trial
  • Magazine Subscription
  • Magazine Renewal
  • Gift a Subscription
  • Customer Support
  • Privacy Preferences
  • About
  • Contact
  • Advertise
  • Careers
  • Terms of Use
  • Site Map
  • Do not sell or share my information
  • Privacy Policy
  • Accessibility
  • California Privacy Rights

© 2025 Active Interest Media. All rights reserved.

Fine Homebuilding receives a commission for items purchased through links on this site, including Amazon Associates and other affiliate advertising programs.

  • Home Group
  • Antique Trader
  • Arts & Crafts Homes
  • Bank Note Reporter
  • Cabin Life
  • Cuisine at Home
  • Fine Gardening
  • Fine Woodworking
  • Green Building Advisor
  • Garden Gate
  • Horticulture
  • Keep Craft Alive
  • Log Home Living
  • Military Trader/Vehicles
  • Numismatic News
  • Numismaster
  • Old Cars Weekly
  • Old House Journal
  • Period Homes
  • Popular Woodworking
  • Script
  • ShopNotes
  • Sports Collectors Digest
  • Threads
  • Timber Home Living
  • Traditional Building
  • Woodsmith
  • World Coin News
  • Writer's Digest
Active Interest Media logo
X
X
This is a dialog window which overlays the main content of the page. The modal window is a 'site map' of the most critical areas of the site. Pressing the Escape (ESC) button will close the modal and bring you back to where you were on the page.

Main Menu

  • How-To
  • Design
  • Tools & Materials
  • Video
  • Blogs
  • Forum
  • Project Guides
  • Reader Projects
  • Magazine
  • Members
  • FHB House

Podcasts

  • FHB Podcast
  • ProTalk

Webinars

  • Upcoming and On-Demand

Podcasts

  • FHB Podcast
  • ProTalk

Webinars

  • Upcoming and On-Demand

Popular Topics

  • Kitchens
  • Business
  • Bedrooms
  • Roofs
  • Architecture and Design
  • Green Building
  • Decks
  • Framing
  • Safety
  • Remodeling
  • Bathrooms
  • Windows
  • Tilework
  • Ceilings
  • HVAC

Magazine

  • Current Issue
  • Past Issues
  • Magazine Index
  • Subscribe
  • Online Archive
  • Author Guidelines

All Access

  • Member Home
  • Start Free Trial
  • Gift Membership

Online Learning

  • Courses
  • Project Guides
  • Reader Projects
  • Podcast

More

  • FHB Ambassadors
  • FHB House
  • Customer Support

Account

  • Log In
  • Join

Newsletter

Get home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox

Signing you up...

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
See all newsletters
See all newsletters

Follow

  • X
  • YouTube
  • instagram
  • facebook
  • pinterest
  • Tiktok

Join All Access

Become a member and get instant access to thousands of videos, how-tos, tool reviews, and design features.

Start Your Free Trial

Subscribe

FHB Magazine

Start your subscription today and save up to 70%

Subscribe

Enjoy unlimited access to Fine Homebuilding. Join Now

Already a member? Log in

We hope you’ve enjoyed your free articles. To keep reading, become a member today.

Get complete site access to expert advice, how-to videos, Code Check, and more, plus the print magazine.

Start your FREE trial

Already a member? Log in

Privacy Policy Update

We use cookies, pixels, script and other tracking technologies to analyze and improve our service, to improve and personalize content, and for advertising to you. We also share information about your use of our site with third-party social media, advertising and analytics partners. You can view our Privacy Policy here and our Terms of Use here.

Cookies

Analytics

These cookies help us track site metrics to improve our sites and provide a better user experience.

Advertising/Social Media

These cookies are used to serve advertisements aligned with your interests.

Essential

These cookies are required to provide basic functions like page navigation and access to secure areas of the website.

Delete My Data

Delete all cookies and associated data