I working up the design for a staircase that is against the wall on one side and open on the other and open under as well. I plan on using 1 x 10 oak for the stringers: treads and risers mortised in 3/8″. Outside stringer will be two of the 1x oak with a layer of 1/2 plywood between. Everything glued and screwed. Any concerns that I might be missing? Thanks
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
There's a constant source of clean water for you to use, and all you have to do is collect it.
Featured Video
SawStop's Portable Tablesaw is Bigger and Better Than BeforeHighlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
Why not use an LVL and apply oak veneer?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I've got the long oak available for $65/pc. I really don't wan't to cut through plies on a LVL. Easier finish on the solid stuff I think.
bumping up
When ever I install stairs like that I either have the Architect spec it or tell the lumber yard that I want a LVL. Stan is a good person to ask but he will need to know the distance you plan to run with it open on one side.What does this situation in my life ask of me?
The length is 15'6"; nothing to long. Residential application and a 40" wide tread.
The LVL is a good idea except the stuff is usually not dry enough for the kind of veneer you are suggesting. I tried this in the past and got mixed results. Some stayed flat and some cupped badly after a few weeks. Now I laminate up a baltic birch core of the necessary length and width then laminate a 1/8 bookmatched skin on both faces.
NO sheetrock screws!!!
If, at first, you fricascee, fry, fry a hen!
Will the outside stringer be supported by a wall? If so, then no worries. If not, and you're talking a notched stringer, I think you're a little light. However, If the outside stringer is mortised, then you've got a full 1 1/8 in. of oak supporting things. The half inch plywood isn't doing much for you, and I'd probably skip it. If you could get 1 x 12 instead, I think two layers in a mortised stringer would be close to bombproof.
I've built and installed many housed stringer basement stairs whose stringers were of 5/4 x 10 #2 pine. No problems there, but I'm only talking about a 13 ft. stringer. On the other hand, those were wedged and glued, and more like one solid unit, and they usually had a wall on both sides.
Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
I've built and installed many housed stringer basement stairs
Like the one in the recent JLC article?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Much like them. And for the record, I wrote that on a hiatus from Taunton. And the subject of the photos was my lovely and talented assistant, Brent. I'm older and more Amish looking.Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
I've used an lvl as a core for a solid oak beam look and there was a lot of shrinkage to deal with. The lvl isn't going to cup or twist, but it will shrink in width as the moisture content is reduced to equilibrium with the houses interior. For stain-grade work a little shrinkage goes a long ways. I'm now a fan of solid oak for such things unless a lvl can be found that has been dried to under 10%.
I'd just add that for sturctural purposes a glue that is structual rated, such as epoxy or polyeurethane, would be a good idea. Yeah I know that many use yellow glue, but it isn't technically a structural glue.
A middle layer of the same 4/4 would make finishing quick and easy, not to mention it would beef things up a bit since that is a decent span. Or even a lower cost hardwood with oak strips along the visible edges.
Sounds like fun.
Don
You've got a point about the core being hardwood instead of plywood. I might have 5 sticks of oak sent over and glue and screw three for the outside stringer leaving two for the wall which will have support.
Any suggestions on screw type; of course not drywall. Who sells structural fasteners?
Glue between plys? Gorilla glue or PL spread with a small notched trowel?
One other thing, should I stick with my Porter Cable router jig which allows for wedges or route a straigt mortise and glue and screw the treads with no wedges?
There is a great article in the current issue of JLC about how to do housed treads and risers. Very detailed.
JLC = Journal of Light Construction. Check their web page.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Throw out the PC jig. It's not worth the powder and shot to blow it to Hell. Make one out of plywood, and by all means, use wedges.Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
since "we're" discussing your article and jigs, why make the jig on-site? wouldn't it be simpler to have a shop made jig of something like baltic birch plywood or MDO- solid and stable material, ready to go on site, saving the time and resulting in a more accurate jig - I'm assuming (not always a good thing) a consistent riser/tread for most applicationsjust curious - great article, just waiting for spring to re-do my rear stairs
thanks
Thanks for the good words on that article. I made the jig on site only to show how simple it is to make. Doing it in the shop would have been only slightly better. That jig, btw, can be used for a range of rise and run configurations. You lay out the stringer with a square, and place the jig on the layout. Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
I never used one of the PC stair jig ,but from the pictures they looked ok . What is wrong with them?
I make ply jigs myself ,but thought that I would like a metal stair jig. Guess not eh.
I wanted one as well, that is until a builder buddy of mine bought one and gave me a demo. The first thing he did was hit the jig with his brand new spiral upcut bit. That did it for me. Besides, aside from that mishap, it didn't seem to work any better than my old plywood home made version.
Several things. There isn't a broad enough base to adequately support the router, and its rise and run range is too limited. It's been nearly 20 years since I treated mine as other than a wall hanger, but if memory serves, the maximum rise it's capable of is only 8 in. Now I know in much of the country, that's more than enough. But at least in NJ and in CT, the maximum rise allowed by code is 8 1/4 in., and architects design houses around that. I'd say that most of the main stairs I've built were 13 risers at 8 1/4 in. per. Not possible with the PC.Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
I wondered about that base width ,it looked a bit narrow from the pics.
I would not want to climb those stairs if the weather was about to change , My knees don't like that sevens are bad enough.
I agree about the rise, but the stairs have to fit the architect's hole, and geometry is immutable.Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
It's been a while since I made stairs exclusively for my living, and maybe I've forgotten a few things.Seems like a span of 40" for a tread was pretty close to max if not over allowable code without a third stringer. Here in Canada, at least.I always use three stringers now on anything around 3' to limit vibration and give a solid feel.Sorry, I know I'm off the original topic, but that 40" caught my attention.Alan
I wouldn't hesitate to go 40 in., and I've gone 8 ft. with porch stairs that had 2x risers. If two outside stringers are able to handle the load, then width isn't much of a concern. The risers act as beams and transfer the load to the stringers. If the risers are stiff enough not to deflect over their span, then the middle stringer isn't doing much other than making it harder to build the stairs. A lot depends on installation. Are there walls supporting the stringers, or are the free spanning?Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
<<If two outside stringers are able to handle the load, then width isn't much of a concern. The risers act as beams and transfer the load to the stringers. If the risers are stiff enough not to deflect over their span, then the middle stringer isn't doing much other than making it harder to build the stairs.>>I wish you had told me that 5 years ago. <G>That little lesson right there was well worth a bottle of Scotch.D#mn shame I'll probably never build a set of stairs again in the next decade, but at least I now know what I used to be doing wrong. <G>[edited to add last line]
Edited 1/8/2006 1:14 am by Catskinner
Man, it's been too long since you and I dented a bottle of Scotch. Any chance of you coming east for AndyC's fest this summer?Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
<<Any chance of you coming east for AndyC's fest this summer?>>Don't know. But I'll think about it.
If the risers are stiff enough not to deflect over their span, then the middle stringer isn't doing much other than making it harder to build the stairs.
Well put.
Thanks.Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Well here is the update. Found 5 pcs of 1 x 10 oak. I'll laminate 3 together with glue (still unsure of what to use instead of titebond) for the outside unsupported stringer. I'll either use my PC jig or use the PC jig to make a new jig out of MDF or whatever. The other two stringers will be laminated together, mortised and bolted to the 18gauge steel studs on the wall. Bottom two fee of that is unsupported but that span in short and of no concern. I'll mortise the treads and risers, wedge and glue everything (bought the Taunton book yesterday) together. The underside is exposed to the living area. Wedges and glue are tough to clean for good looks so I see covering the bottom with veneer plywood.
The newel posts will be notched to overlap the top of the outside stringer and bolted solid.
I'd consider urhea-formaldehyde glue for laminating the stringers. It's also called plastic resin glue. You mix it with water, and have about 20 minutes of working time. Home Depot and Lowes won't have it, but Jamestown Distributors does. It's chief advantage is that it doesn't creep under load as most glues do.Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Andy,
If the stairs are being built from 3/4" poplar risers, 1 1/16th" Oak treads.....what would be the max span you would build?
What does this situation in my life ask of me?
Edited 1/8/2006 12:44 pm ET by trimcarp
I'd start worrying at 4 ft. or so.Andy
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
that clarifies it - figured you could make a "standard" jig and keep it around - thanks - keep up the good articles
<It's not worth the powder and shot to blow it to Hell.>
Spoken like a true Amish. hehehehe
Tim
Any suggestions on screw type; of course not drywall. Who sells structural fasteners?
For attaching to the wall the newfangled torx head lag bolts are structurally rated and easy to use. Most lumberyards that cater to contractors seem to carry them. If you are limited to box stores, short timberlocks or Simpson Strongtie screws are both structural.
I'm a big fan of deck screws for attaching all sorts of thingies to whatchamacallits, but they are still questionable for high-loads. Every time I get real comfortable with using a deck screw for more than it should be, I'll back one out of a hole only to find it broke in half. Still, a 5" #14 Goldstar torx-head deck screw is awful tuff and a favorite for attaching hand rail returns.
You mentioned screwing the layers together, which is ok if it's only to hold things tight while the glue dries. Any screw would work for this, even sheetrock screws, since the strength doesn't come from the screws, but the glue bond. Projects like this are a good excuse to buy more clamps to save some of the extra time "clamping" with screws takes, especially in hardwood.
Glue between plys? Gorilla glue or PL spread with a small notched trowel?
Many like to use a small paint roller for large glue ups. I like a 6" stiff sheetrock knife, although a trowel would work. Any notches would have to be very small. Also, warming the glue helps it spread out easier.
Good glueing,
Don
Outside stringer will be two of the 1x oak with a layer of 1/2 plywood between. Everything glued and screwed.
I would not do it. You are asking for trouble. Anytime the veneer exceeds 1/8 thick the substrate, in your case the 1/2 inch plywood, will not be able to conteract the seasonal movement of the solid wood. You would be better off eliminatilng the 1/2 plywood and adding another layer of oak instead.
I agree with that. Ply and solids sandwiched together is a bad idea.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.