Looking at a set of plans, the architect has a section of the exterior of the building where he shjows a sheet of pvc about 2′-8″ x 11′-8″ as a background for a sign. I have questioned that, asking: 1-will there be a probelm with thermal expansion?; 2- how do you fasten the sheet to the building The exterior of the building is brick veneer with a recess in the brick field for thsi pvc sheet.
Archy says it won’t be a problem. And he says “anchorage should be done as per mfgr recommendations, possibly adhesive or mechanical anchors”. I have a problem with that. i think the adhesiv will fail after a few seasons, and how do you conceal the mechanical fasteners? Am I being unreasonable?
“Put your creed in your deed.” Emerson
“When asked if you can do something, tell’em “Why certainly I can”, then get busy and find a way to do it.” T. Roosevelt
Replies
Instead of anchoring through a hole, maybe cut slots, 1" long, at the anchor points-mainly in the 12 foot direction and allow for movement along the slots.
Bruce
you could have a metal fabricator make up a set of stainless steel french cleats. that would allow for thermal expansion which I think would be a problem
through bolt the mounting cleats onto the panel, anchor the recieving cleats into the mortar joints
Based on my experience with archs, the key is "per manuf recommendations". If you can document that you followed them, you oughta be fine in the event of a problem. If you don't, even if your method is superior, you own any future issue...
PaulB
http://www.makeabettertomorrow.com
http://www.finecontracting.com
Problem is, I'm the customer and I see the probloem coming. The archy is of little help. He drew it and had the bright idea, but it's up to the contractor to figurre out the details. I don't think it's the contractors place to work out those details. And I don't want thwe contractor to stumble and produce an inferior product."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Ah OK... I missed that you're the client. In that case I think you should insist that the arch specifies the methodology, he's using an old dodge.PaulB
http://www.makeabettertomorrow.com
http://www.finecontracting.com
Blah... Use a piece of Corian. We've had a Corian sign on the front of our shop for over 30 years. Not one lick of maintenance as of this day. It's still thought of as a temporary sign too. Anchor blocks of Corian to the brick mechanically, and then bond the sheet to the blocks with the adhesive.
In the end, I would rather do it right, and own it.But first I would embark on a long series of communications with the manufacturer and the archy to document things.Usually when I do that, by the time I raise Qs on the pertinent issues, and sometimes point out that the manufacturer has no recommendation for this sort of thing, the archy usually ends up agreeing with me.I would start with a letter to the Azek people ( letter, not phone call, so as to document evidence trail) asking them to detail how to fulfill the archies request to use their product.
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Thermal expansion will be a problem. PVC moves a lot. The French cleat idea or something like it is a good idea.
I'd recommend discussing this with the building owner. Tell him you don't have an adequate plan from the architect on this item.
You can countersink the fasteners and plug the holes with matching material. A dab of PVC cement will hold it in place.
"anchorage should be done as per mfgr recommendations" Translation: I don't know, you figure it out. :-)
I built a neighborhood entry sign that was a masonry structure with a PVC placard. Letters were routed in the PVC via a computer controlled router. Not cheap.
Anyway the sign company mounted the placard to my masonry structure, which happened to be block covered with faux stone. The stone was applied around the placard, so the placard was attached directly to the block. Here is how:
Sign placard was around 2'x8' PVC. They fastened a double piece of metal, to the back of the placard with sheet metal screws (or similar). I think the metal was 1/8" thick sheet Aluminum. The metal was about 1/2" smaller all around than the PVC so ti was around 1'11"x7'11". When they brought it out to site they separated the AL from the PVC and then held the bottom piece of the AL up to the structure and drilled thorough it in several places. They took the AL down and then inserted some of those hammer in anchors through the newly drilled sheet of AL and then reassembled the "sandwich" with the sheet metal screws the anchors were sticking out the back. They applied some rubber washers to the anchors I guess to hold the AL away from the masonry a little. They then applied adhesive to the masonry. Then they put the sign up there inserting the anchors into the holes in the masonry, and carefully tapped the assembly in place with a rubber mallet. Hope that made sense. If not I'll do a quick sketch.
I'm guessing what you are doing isn't a low rent operation - so a sign company should take care of making the sign placard and mounting it anyway.
Edited 8/18/2009 11:11 pm ET by Matt
"anchorage should be done as per mfgr recommendations" Translation: I don't know, you figure it out. :-)
That's exactly my point. Here is one of his comments: the anchors can be recessed and covered with putty/spackle and then painted. Seems a little vague."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Had an archi on a apartment complex design the buildings with ridge vent. Only problem was that there was a fire wall (rated wall assembly which he designed) right up the center of the building all the way up to the ridge. Ridge vent no workie. His solution: "maybe you can put some turbine vents on the roof or whatever to provide the proper ventilation. I found some different kinds of vents, got the vent specs, did the vent calcs, and wrote it all up. he "That looks good. Now go downtown and get it approved by the city (his job) and implement it. Me, OK - "Ill do that as soon as I get some time".... I just kept on building... BTW - it is not only his job to design the buildings, but also inspect the work and submit stamped reports that they were built according to plan. Obviously any change in plans is his responsibility. Then when the project is done he comes over there his with a coupla of his "look what I "built"" friends and starts running around like a fairy taking about 1000 pictures... Not sure if he has a pair or not... ;-) Really he isn't a bad guy - just definitely didn't come through in that instance...
I have a couple dozen variations of the same story
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Yea - don't we all. Seems amazing to me that in an instance when minor stuff goes wrong (not like a building collapse) due to bad drawings the paper producers in this industry aren't responsible for their work... weird...
It is one of the many reasons I got into design work myself. I was getting tired of doing their work for them and letting them take credit for it.
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I don't mind them taking the credit, I'm bothered by the archy avoiding the responsibility."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I would conceal mechanical fasteners by countersinking them and using bon'n'fill over or bondo.
But I'd have the same concern as you about thermal expansion.
"...per manufacturers..." is a universal cop-out for archies IMO, especially when throwing a non-typical design dtail out there.
I would use MDO. It is a time tested signboard for forty years now and not subject tothe problems a large sheet of Azek in an exterior setting would have.
The other option commonly used in signage applicationss is Lexan. You can get it in many colours to avoid concerns for painting. You mentioned this is a sign background, so I imagine raised letters of some sort, making it difficult to paint behind them in ten years as you would have to do with the MDO
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
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