I have just purchased 120 Sq Ft. of 3/4″ thick brazilian cherry flooring to install in our foyer as my wife’s Christmas present. Being a slower, meticulous, furniture maker (avocation) I am reluctant to rent a nailer that would force me to work faster than I care to. I intend to drill and hand nail every 10″ or so using 7 or 8 penny finish nails. Knowing a nailer uses a barbed fastener, I am wondering if the finish nail is too smooth even though it is at an angle through the tongue edge into subflooring and hopefully into floor joints where possible. Any thoughts on alterrnative fasteners, methods, or am I safe with careful drilling and finish nailing?
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I'm thinking that you will have issues with the smooth shank pulling out, angled or not. Not sure how long you want to drag out the process but I would just bite teh bullet and rent a nailer, or take another approach, buy a nailer, use it for the project and then sell it on e-bay.
You'll get a tighter floor with a hammer actuated nailer unless you want to use wedges on every board. Unless you're into the zen of floorlaying, I'd rent the nailer. Even with it, you'll get plenty of opportunity to hand nail near the walls.
Don't worry Woodie, it will probably take longer than you thought it would anyway and you'll be glad when you're done.
You could rent a manual floor nailer and take long breaks to rest your arm?
Woodie - I replaced a carpet floor a few years back with maple hardwood using a 16 ga pin nailer. However, the stuff was 3/8" thick, 4" wide, and had v-grooves machined between slats to help accommodate expansion issues. Got all of the material from Launsteins (website) and followed their installation instructions (poly adhesive to glue to subfloor and pin nailing through tongues)...
Floor turned out fairly well for a first-timer...
However, your attempt brings to mind a few issues:
1. Not sure what your board widths are - the wider they are, the greater the dimensional movement (as I'm sure you're acutely aware with your furniture making). This movement tends to work at the smooth nails over time, and I'm guessing you may experience some "loosening" issues with respect to this...
2. Not sure what your subfloor is, so not sure whether gluing might be appropriate. Again, moisture changes can wreak havoc with glue-down as well, possibly resulting in cupping, etc...
3. Not sure whether you're after a smooth, polished surface look or whether your boards have been v-grooved. Nice thing about the grooves is they help accommodate movement (and hide subtle elevation differences between adjacent boards). Bad thing about the grooves is they collect dirt when you're sweeping...
Perhaps - narrow boards, not too much seasonal humidity change, and maybe a v-groove (or at least a tolerance for gaps during the dry months), and maybe you could put a bead of glue down the center of each and do your "zen-like" predrilling and hand nailing and it might turn out OK...
On the other hand, there's a lot of additional integrity with the barbed nails that the more conventional fastening systems use, and they would seem to be better suited to thicker/wider boards, etc...
If it were me, I'd go buy a slick, air-driven nailer with a heavy duty compresser and a brand new "wacking mallet". But then, I'm a "tool ho"...
If you're only doing 120 sf, and you're not going to be doing much more, I'd go rent the thing for an afternoon. If you want "zen", get the non-air-driven nailer. You still gotta wack the thing with a mallet, although I don't think they accept "7 or 8 penny finish nails" unfortunately...
Good luck with your project - brazilian cherry is a beautiful choice...
Drilling and nailing has it's place and time. This isn't one of them. Application of flooring in the manner you suggest is not a sign of quality or good workmanship. Rent the nailer, you'll get a better floor and after and hour or two, you'll be glad you did.
Woodie1: Just think of what the carpenters did before they had all of the new fasteners. When I was a kid my Dad and Grandfather use an 8 penny finish nail and pre-drilled all of the holes. I live in an area in Norhtern Michigan where we have homes that are more than 100 years old. When I do remodeling I notice how these practices have held up through the years. I have clients that have summer homes that are less than 10 years old and spend more money on repairs then the owners of the older homes. Woodie I would not hesitate to use the 8 penny finish nail. This might be the only thing that will out live you. Best Regards, Dale Buchanan
Well, I think you've gotten enough advice telling you to rent a nailer, so I won't do the same.
If you decide to do it by hand, I suggest using flooring nails specially made for the purpose instead of finish nails. They are hardenened, so won't bend easily, thicker than finish nails and have a spiral like deck nails. This makes them less prone to pullout. They also have a wider head than finish nails, less likely to be driven in the tongue and split it.
woodie1
Let me share my experiance with laying floor. I made my own flooring using random width black walnut boards up to 12 inches wide. Because I was smarter than anybody I decided to invent my own system.. I didn't want to lose the 1/2 inch width that you do when you mill the flooring to get the tongue so I cut groves into it and fitted splines..
Then I face screwed each board down after I wedged them together. once all the boards were down I put plugs in each hole. (careful to align the grain on each and match the color of each plug to the board below). I did slightly less than 800 sq.ft and it took me over two months to do.. I am willing to bet that I have well over 300 hours in doing that floor. It looks great and is stronger than heck but far from perfect..
IN the end because my daughter was about to have a baby I needed to rush so that the baby wouldn't be exposed to the noise fumes etc. of laying a floor and finishing it.. That's where minor flaws started to creep in.. I finished the floor the week before the baby was born but if I'd spent enough time to really get the floor proper I would have needed another two weeks.
You outlined my point exactly. I believe in doing quality work and taking the extra time, I don't like the "production" attitude carried to a radical extreme. However, there exists a point of diminishing returns and it sounds like you found that point. There are people who spend their entire lives washing their hands, they aren't productive and they aren't perfectionists either. At some point you have decide that you would like to build other parts of the house within your own lifetime, not just the floor.
I wouldn't use finishing nails either. I would use flooring nails, the twisted, hardened ones that were mentioned earlier. I think the hardened nails are easier to work with (cause they don't bend as easily) and worth the extra few pennies. Then again, I've seen plenty of OLD floors that were nailed down with "steel cuts", which are pretty smooth, and those floors seem to hold up okay.
You want to nail it down by hand, and pre-drill? Hope you have good knees or good pads, or both. I can think of lots more interesting or fun things to do for sure. But it's your choice. I don't think you'll get a much better job doing it by hand - you going to sink the heads with a nail set too?
Don't underestimate the amount of work you are undertaking. But then again, if you get part way though and decide to get a maichine, you can do that too.
Last year, I had a small repair to do on some old oak, by hand. I did my share of pre drilling, and cursing. Were I to do it again, or do a room, I would be getting some air powered assistance, and I don't normally go that way.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
I just bought the Bostitch air floor stapler for 3/4 flooring - and after installing a Bruce Oak floor with it - I can tell you that it is the tool for the job.Sit on the couch or organize your nuts and bolts, but don't waste your time hand-nailing a hardwood floor install.JT
If I were going to to the trouble to predrill, I would use trim screws instead of nails.
A little more than 50 years ago, my grandfather did essentially his entire house predrilling with an old Milwaukee Hole-shooter and nailing by hand. When I helped him move a couple of years ago, it was still there, no worse for the wear. He was very proud that in the entire house, there was only 2 rows (if memory serves, ~1 1/4" widths) that were face nailed. Personally, I'm not that patient if I know there is a faster way, but if you like it, go for it.
Woodie1, If you are going to hand nail use hot dipped galvy finish nails, If you come to your senses and go pneumatic (or manual gun) I strongly recommend you use the "cut nail" style as opposed to the staple style. The "cut nail" style has a better holding power,IMHO. You can hand nail as you get close to the walls if you really feel the need, which will reduce the number of face nails you have to deal with. The hammer style does help to pull the flooring tightly together too, without having to use multiple tools. The only other advice is, be sure you let the new flooring acclimate for at least 4-5 days before you install it, it will give you the best looking floor in the future, i.e. little or no gaps during seasonal shifts. When you acclimate it be sure to spread it out as much as possible, even do it as part of your layout of the floor, if you can live with the flooring spread out like that.
Good luck!
Geoff
Drilling and nailing will not result in a better floor than fastening it with a power driven floor nailer. Just because you "take your time" with it, doesn't mean you will do a better job. Spend your time grain matching all the boards or doing a special border..... that will result in a better job.
30 bucks, a hammer-actuated stapler:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/tls/232403776.html
If you need extra security, you can lay a bead of liquid nails or something similar under each plank.
I nailed my 3/4" oak foyer as you describe, about 60 sf. It took me 8 hours. Then i sanded it with a belt sander. I wouldn't ever do it again like that, though.
When you sand it, i recommend a big rectangular pad sander. A nylon pad sits between the sander and the sanding sheet and drives the action of the sander. It's very easy and foolproof, if a bit slow, but perfect for a small space. And you can do it standing up....
Edited 11/11/2006 2:52 am ET by splintergroupie
that liquid nails idea sometimes turns out really bad--and other times okay--problem is some adhesives don't allow enough seasonal movement and cause warps, splits, ect. Problems get more apparent as width grows. I.E. No big deal on stair treads, but not a good idea in a great-room. Full Disclosure: We use PL and wedge up our borders and edges, haven't ever had a call-back for gaps or splits.DCG Your Neighbor's Contractor LLC
"A wrongdoer is often a man who has left something undone, not always one who has done something."--Marcus Aurelius
Thanks to all for your most informative responses. I am inclined to try the hand nailing as the the power nailer would still be a fallback option. I have looked but will look again or check Woodworker Supply for a flooring nail which sounds good...more holding power, harder, and less chance of bending. Know of any other possible sources?
I didn't say that 35 years ago I put down 1/2" x 2" waxed oak in our (this) house except for kitchen, front room, utility room & foyer (which is where the prefinished 3/4" x 8" Brazilian Cherry is to go). The nailer pulled the oak pcs together along w/some persuasive wedging, but this cherry is not only beautiful but straight & flat right out of the carton. The tongue and grooves w/slight edge bevels seem as if they would look great w/o any fasteners. (No, we're not going to try that!) Fortunately, if I lay perpendicular to joists (across the width of the space) there will be no surface nailing needed because of the room layout (6' wide x 20'long). I also learned from my 80 year old brother-in-law that he, my older brother and deceased father had hand nailed the floors in his house in the early 50's.
>>> Know of any other possible sources?
The big boxes (HD, lowes) as well as your local HW store carry this, nothing exotic about it.
One last thing to consider, Woodie.
I'm 65, and I suspect that you are near that age if you did a floor 20 years ago (well, maybe you are 36). 30 years ago I could spend all day on my knees with no sweat. So when I came time for me to either refinish my oak floors in my "new" 55 year old house or replace them, I chose to refinish them. To my surprise, all the floors but the one I inspected before we bought the house had had a 1/4" yellow foam mat very well glued to the floor.
You can't sand that off - you have to scrape that off! So, instead of ripping the darn thing out and reflooring - using a pneumatic nailer - which I should have done - I scraped 1600 sq feet of flooring. Then refinished it the normal way.
Looks Great! My knees are fairly ruined! (no kidding - my knees are now 85 years old). Sooooo, if you can avoid 5 weeks on your old knees I'd heartily recommend it! Use the nailer! Use your still working knees to hold you up while you build more furniture!
Mike D :)
Woodie
I'm about to start on a flooring project that sounds much like your situation. And I too have no interest in the "production" approach that those who do this stuff for a living MUST do.
Just like my dad (a 1950's GC) used to do, I too was considering predrilling and hand nailing using twist shanks...but something that hasn't yet been mentioned kind of steered me away....pecker tracks! Are you supremely confident in your ability to hit the nail on the head with each stroke? Sure, you can cut a slot in a little piece of 1/4" ply and insert around the nail base to protect the flooring...but this is more work that I really want to do....not to mention the knees that are no longer 30 years old.
So I patiently watched my local Craigs List, put in an occassional wanted ad and would bid on the few high-quality nailers that would pop up on ebay...finally got the winning bid on a model 402 manual Porta Nailer...paid $145 with shipping. And when I'm done, it'll go up on the local Craig's List.
Good luck
BruceM
Don't try to hand nail this stuff. Jotoba, what we call Brazillian cherry, is very dense and nearly impossible to drive a nail into.If you do get a nail in it WILL split the wood. I use a Powernail hand drive flooring nailer. When I have to hand nail near the walls,I cut the ends of the nails off square to stop splitting. look at the cut off nails-end looks like a chisel end, put mthe "chisel" across the grain and drive it in. If the nail bends, ! no nads,2 cheap nails 3 not a big enough hammer. I use a 22 oz. and prob. bend 'bout 20%. Jim
Question on floor nailers, I noticed at amazon you can buy pneumatic or manuel driven nailers. Is there that much of a difference? I suppose if you use the manuel I suppose you have to have arms like Popeye and eat your spinach??
I think you're overthinking it, dude. Its a floor, in an entry way, it's gonna get beat up. Use a good cleat that will secure it against movement. Put it in place with a pneumatic flooring cleat nailer that assures dept of drive and seats each groove on the previous tongue, get it done in a day, (that'd be the biggest supprise if it was for my wife) and head out to the shop to build some furniture that won't have people scuffing muddy shoes on it all day.
FYI: I put in thousands of feet of hardwood every year. The hand nailing approach is what we use as we close in on walls and cabs, where our guns don't fit, but we use flooring cleats, not finish nails. Especially with pre finished, where face nailing is out of the question. It's the right way when there's no other way, but the results are always better in the field where the mallet seats the boards.
"A wrongdoer is often a man who has left something undone, not always one who has done something."--Marcus Aurelius
You are nuts..
I put in +1000 sq ft of same from Howard in Texas. Great deal but the wood is harder than a hookers heart. Rent the nailer from HD and be done with it. It is faster and will suck up tighter together than your well intentioned hand effort.
Brazillian Jatobia is 2x harder than white oak. You'll do more damage with a hammer than the nailer ever would.
Note on the face nailer starting. Finding filler is impossible from anyone. Just take the fines from the 2nd sanding and mix it with Shellac. Use a putty knife to push it in the nail holes and fill the inadvertant cracks. Final sand and then finish. The shellac takes about an hour to set/cure. then it is sandable.
It is a beautiful floor after you are thru. Best of luck.
another homeowner horror show coming up!
why wud u want to reinvent the wheel, hand drilling and using non-dedicated fasteners to use far, far more time to do an inferior install job?? ur not billding furniture thiz time, ur installing a floor Rent a pneumatic floor tool, staple or nail, which helps pull the flooring tight every shot use a gum rubber faced mallet which won't dent the leading edge of the flooring stock as u bang boards tight someone mentioned ancient times when flooring was installed w finish nails, just a note, these floors are usually pretty loose when it comes time to refinish them anyone who's demo'd a nail or staple from a flooring gun will tell u it holds better than a finish nail do it right w an air tool, the manual guns require a lot of extra work, aren't as easy to strike and control as an air tool when nearing walls