Layout 101 – this drives me nuts
OK, get ready to laugh you butts off, but I always have the toughest time laying out studs (16″ O C) for a simple installation of 4′ x 8′ material. First, I hook the tape on the end of the bottom plate, measure across 48″, but wait, that’s wrong. I want to have that mark in the center of that stud so that it will do the half-and-half for the next piece of 4′ x 8′, etc. So, now I measure back 3/4″, draw a line with the “cover the X” mark to the right of it. However, when I re-hook the tape on the end my stud “centers” seem to be off by 3/4″.
Now, without making the most basic carpentry skill even funnier (or more complicated) can anyone suggest in about, say, three steps how this is done? I know that my tape measure has the stud centers marked on it, etc., but is it not possible to hook it and go? Man, I feel like such a Homer for asking this of you veterans, but I’ve learned to be humble as I’ve gotten older. Blue, Diesel Pig and Mike Smith are probably just smirkin’ at this question!
Thanks to all who have been there and can do this with their eyes closed!
Cheers,
Ken
“They don’t build ’em like they used to” And as my Dad always added… “Thank God!”
Replies
you are using studs that are 1-1/2", right?
So to get a stud to land with it's middle on the 16'OC, the line has to be on the edge of the stud placement. to do that add 3/4" to eaach mark and X back
or subtract 3/4" and X forward
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Oh yeah, and Piffin, too! I used to watch my Dad, but obviously not close enough, and he could fly along the plates with his framing square. He be laying down lines and X's so fast that I guess it never really sunk in. Anyway, Piffin, isn't there some point when you lay the end of your tape at the 15 1/4" mark and move forward using the 16" marks on the tape? And yes, I'm using 1 1/2" material.
Thanks.
Ken"They don't build 'em like they used to" And as my Dad always added... "Thank God!"
Hook your tape on the end. Make a mark ON 15-1/4''. Take your chisel and bash a notch on that mark. Hook your tape in the notch and mark all the remaining stud locations on the 16'' marks (16,32,48 etc). If you try to mark back 3/4 or ahead 3/4 you might goof.
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Edited 8/1/2006 5:37 am ET by calvin
You're right. I usually hook the plate, make a mark at 15 1/4, X ahead. Drive a nail at the 15 1/4 mark - hook your tape measure on the 15 1/4 mark and then make marks with X's ahead every 16, 32, etc.I haven't heard the chisel idea before. I'm trying that next time instead of the nail.
all that works too, but too muh time moving thuings around. I just hook and go
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Hey Cal, even at my age, with failing eyesight and a good dose of CRS I can still hook the tape on the end of the plate and remember to mark back 3/4 at every point and put the big X where it belongs. I've never seen the chisel trick, either.
I always teach helpers to cut a 3/4" block, and butt it to the end of the plate. Measure from the block, mark your layout using the 16" marks on your tape. The only thing you can goof up is putting the stud on the wrong side of 16.
In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey.
OK, thanks to all and I really mean that. Just one more thing before nap time...I've got to build a wall exactly 12' long. I want the studs at each end of the plate to be flush with the ends of the plate, not run past by 3/4" to pick up another plate. Therefore, I just "pull" the last stud (at 12') back to flush with plate's end. This will create a stud space of 15 1/4", right? So, hypothetically, if I wanted to then make the wall longer, I'd hook my tape on the 2nd stud from the end and mark the 16" centers from there. I think. I once saw a "layout stick" that a seasoned carpenter gave to his rookies (I'd be a perfect candidate) that could be slid along the ring joist. It ensured a error-free layout. However, I don't think it would be appropriate in this type of situation, would it?
Oy! Measure twice, cut once!Cheers,
Ken"They don't build 'em like they used to" And as my Dad always added... "Thank God!"
Ken, don't feel bad for asking such a basic question. I've actually tried every way imaginable myself. I've done the nail thing. I've done the framing square thing. I've done the 15.25 and X thing.
Now, I get my big fat black permanent marker and hook the tape on the end and mark 16", 32", 48" etc. The big fat black mark represents the center of every stud. It's fast, it's easy and it's accurate enough for rough framing.
No more x's, they are a waste of time, ink and money.
blue
edit: I've done the chisel trick. I've made saw kerfs. I've used the scratch awl trick.....
Edited 7/31/2006 11:53 pm ET by blueeyeddevil
Yeah, I mark centers. With a big Sloppy V. The point of the V is center and the big V is easy to see.
The only things marked with an |X is what is not on 16" layout.
Actually, I use my SPEED SQUARE and make neat |X|'s.
;
SamT
Hope this isn't too off topic, but how the heck did "they" ever come up with 16 oc and not 12 or 10 or whatever. My old house is 24 oc.
my guess is that 16" fits nicely into 4' increments. 24" is too far spaced and 12" is too close for typical framing although those dimensions are used alternately.
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And also the mysterious 19-3/16" center! The black diamond! (divides up 8' nicely into 5 bays)
Forrest
"but how the heck did "they" ever come up with 16 oc and not 12 or 10 or whatever"Because a space bigger than 16 made the old plaster lath too spongy, and smaller was a waste of materials. Logs have pretty much always been cut in lengths of 4' increments and 8' on up. I really have no clue beyond that. Probably there was engineering involved at some point and the industry felt the need for standardization.Ever done something spec'ed at 19.2" O.C. I've seen it occasionally on enginered floor joists. 8' plywood still works, but it saves one joist every 8'. You just stagger splices a little more or less than the usual 4'.
justin.. my recollection is that shortly after we got dimension lumber and started with modern conventional framing... the layout was one hammer.. which is also the average length of a forearm ( front of fist to elbow )
this common spacing was later incorporated into the framing square.. it was fairly obvious that 12" was too close and 24" was too great
the 19.2 developed from the effort to evolve a more cost saving layout with the 8' module.. so the plywood industry developed span tables for 19.2
each common spacing has it's application and all 4 are incorporated in our building codesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
being an HO with no time constraints, I decide where the first stud goes, then use by framing square to mark of the studs. one tongue is 1 1/2" so I step off every 16" and mark both sides of the short tongue.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
Stepping off each one may be OK for small enough walls, but the danger is cumulative error eventually forcing you to rip some sheet goods, or fill in a gap.
-- J.S.
While it's not my preferred layout method, stepping off with the square should work pretty well. Cosidering that he'll be measuring a light sixteenth as often as a heavy sixteenth (he's using the body of the square to measure), the differences should cancel each other out.
Now, if he was using the 16" arm only, he would almost surely get the cumulative error you speak of.
When they surveyed Everest for the first time, using basically an optical level and stick, they followed a protocol for rounding numbers, and came within a couple of feet of what is now accepted as the official height.
> Cosidering that he'll be measuring a light sixteenth as often as a heavy sixteenth (he's using the body of the square to measure), the differences should cancel each other out.
Actually, it doesn't quite work that way. Not even if his technique produced truly random errors. Out of, say, ten studs, you won't get exactly 5 heavy and 5 light. Just like if you flip a coin ten times, it won't always -- or even usually -- be exactly 5 heads and 5 tails.
-- J.S.
I was taught to use the square to layout. It's simple but it still takes skill. One of the skills is minimizing/eliminating cumulative errors.
I apprenticed under a guy that was a stickler for details. One of the things he didn't want to see was cumulative error. He taught me to run my hundred foot tape out on the mudsills and mark every 4'. We would realign our square on the 4' marks, thus negating any cumulated error.
At some point after I became a journeyman, I thought about my system of dragging out that 100' tape, marking the 4' centers, then dragging my square out and making the walk again. I decided that I was making too many trips down a wall for layout purposes. I decided that I'd just mark out all the 16" centers when I strung out my 100' tape and that's how I do it today.
Incidently, the 4' marks was a very good idea and I quickly learned how to use my square without accumulating error. It is a skill and anyone with a sharp pencil and good eyes can quickly learn how to layout with a square without accumulating any significant error.
blue
Thanks again to all. And I thought that it was just me, but sometimes the simplest things challenge us. I don't know if it's the way some of our brains are wired, but it blows me away how some folks can look at something and interpret it super clearly and even start making changes before the rest of us can process the bare facts. Then try and explain basic engine operation, computer operation or why the sky is blue to the same people and they're stumped.
Anyway, I can usually figure things like this out - it just takes longer than I think it should and sometimes it's downright embarrassing. And I really admire watching a pro do lay-outs for doors and windows and such and not miss a beat. Oh well, it'd be a pretty boring place if we were all the same, right?Cheers,
Ken"They don't build 'em like they used to" And as my Dad always added... "Thank God!"
You mean you use the center mark method?! My old boss that I learned lots of framing from use the center mark on the edge of the stud method. No thinking involved, and accurate enough for framing.
As much as I don't care to admit, his layout styles are the best I've used. The theory was, and I use it as much as possible, is to put all possible info on the plates to reduce the wall banger's thinking. Make one guy do the head scratching for everyone.
Not to start another thread on layouts, but interesting to hear of different styles.
The guys that I lay out for don't like the center marks. Of course, we don't frame every day. We are actually a bunch of trimmers that do an occasional frame and/or remodel. Me being the most experienced (not saying much) framer, I get layout duty. Might be because I don't like their ways, either. I'm adaptable, many guys aren't. Neither cold, nor darkness will deter good people from hastening to the dreadful place to quench the flame. They do it not for the sake of reward or fame; but they have a reward in themselves, and they love one another.
-Benjamin Franklin
Yes, I use the center mark method. I just swipe two big black marks for the centers of each stud. I use that same method on any layout application that will work with it.
I use a pencil and framing square for all critical layout marks: doors, windows etc.
I find this system of having two different types of marks to be beneficial especially when training newbies. I can point to the lightly marked pencil lines and explain that these are most critical-they are never to be altered without consulting me. I go on to tell them that they are free to move or eliminate any big black mark.
It's a good system: fast, efficient and effective.
blue
Ken,
Just hook your tape pulling from left to right and mark 3/4" less on all your red 16" center marks and X to the right and that's all you have to do.
15-1/4", 31-1/4", 47-1/4", 63-1/4", 79-1/4", 95-1/4", 111-1/4", 127-1/4".....
Joe Carola
Edited 8/1/2006 6:21 am ET by Framer
Ken, as you can see from the varied responses, whatever produces consistant results.
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Quittin' Time
Used your technique today, Framer. The cat's meow! Thanks to all.Cheers,
Ken"They don't build 'em like they used to" And as my Dad always added... "Thank God!"
The way I've been doing it is to hook the end, then take a 4 - 6" offcut of stud in my left hand and the lead pencil in my right. I hold the scrap of 2x against the plate, with its edges 3/4" either way from the desired center mark. Swipe pencil lines against both sides of the little block, and on to the next. With that done, if the layout is complicated with doors and windows, I'll do X's for the king studs and O's for the rest.
It may take a little longer that way, but I don't do enough framing any more to stay good at it. Seeing the little piece of wood there somehow makes it a little more foolproof.
-- J.S.
http://www.bigfootsaws.com/latoutStick.html
Thanks for the link, CAGIV. I've seen them made of wood and they very similar. Have a great day!Cheers,
Ken"They don't build 'em like they used to" And as my Dad always added... "Thank God!"