Replies

1. 
   marko_maryniak | Mar 07, 2001 03:39am | #1

   *
   I only know this from my leaky water pump in my truck. The guys at the garage put some invisible dye into the rad, run the engine for awhile, then shine a blacklight on it and the leak shows up plain as day.

   The only trouble you'll have is finding the actual source of the leak, water gets in on one end of the roof, then follows the path of least resistance, leaking out into the living cavity wherever it wants, typically in the most confusing and unlikely place possible...

   Sorry to put a 'damper' on things!

1. 
   Ron_Rosa | Mar 07, 2001 04:09am | #2

   *What type of roof is it ? Modified Torch down, Hot Tar , Rolled Roofing. How big is it and does it have a pitch to it or does it puddle? Sounds like the water is leaking through the flashings that run under the stucco. If its puddling in certain areas your roof could be porous. Drainage is the most important factor on flat roofs .

1. 
   Dan_P. | Mar 07, 2001 07:17pm | #3

   *I am not an expert on roofs so I don't know exactly what typeof roofing it is. I can see from the bottom ( I removed partof the sheet rock) that there is plywood over the rafters asthe roof substrate. And when a window contractor put in thesliding glass door and cut into part of the roof I noticedthere is some black rubbery tar like material about an inch thickand then that is coated with a white paint-like coating that seems to have been put on with paint rollers since it has arough texture and it looks like it has some sand crystals mixedin to make it non-slippery I guess. It is angled towards the centerwhere there is a drain. On the edges it goes up about an inch upunder the flashings. The area is about 9' x 10'. I once had the guy who did the roof over andtogether we covered the drain and filled the roof up about an inchhigh full of water like a bath tub and it didn't leak. He leftonce he proved his point. He said the walls and windows are nothis problem. So I left the hose spray against the window and wallsfor an hour and eventually I got the leak started. That kind of spraying I guess amounted to what two full days worth of hard rainwould have been. I have started sealing the stucco using somestucco sealant stuff--I think it is called Dry-Lock-- from HomeDepot. I also added flashing to the edges of the two walls thatgo up to the second story sloped roof because I saw some moisture on top of those walls in the attic and I thought that could sip all the way down and go under the flat roof. I no longer see mosture there when it rains. Over two yearsof fighting this leak off and on I have come to the conclusion thatthere are multiple places where this thing is leaking including possibly through the siding in front of the house. I am planningto take down the entire siding on the front and replace the wholething. I am also going to take down the wood ledges capping the twoshort walls around the flat roof and replace them all and add to theiroverhang so they don't let the water wash down against the stuccowalls. I am also thinking of putting a cover over the whole patiobut that has proven to be architecturally challenging sice I can'tthink of a design that goes with the style of the house.I will try to take a picture of it in the next few days and post it here. Thanks for your responses gentlemen.

1. 
   Dan_P. | Mar 07, 2001 07:24pm | #4

   *That sounds like a clever idea but I am afraid it won't workon a roof. I think some kind of infra-red detector devicecould work for a roof. I thought there might be somethingthat would work like a stud finder that one could scanagainst the walls and under the roof and sort of track thepath of the water. That's kind of what I had in mind.I know woodworkers have devices that measure the woodmoisture content but for that to work you have to pokethe sensor into the wood I believe. For a roof it hasto be non-invasive. You don't want to poke holes all overunder the roof of course. I don't know anyone who hasn'thad a leak in their house at one point or another. If someoneinvents such a thing he could make millions selling them.I have a hard time believing that the technology for itdoesn't exist.

1. 
   Norm_Kerr | Mar 07, 2001 07:35pm | #5

   *In the automotive design field, we use an ultrasonic leak finder.You put the noise maker inside the car, close the doors and go around the joints and door edges with the ultrasonic microphone. A meter indicates the leak by hearing the noise increase. This is able to find leaks that even water would not leak through.This might not work very well on a building, though, because the leak paths that are hard to countermeasure will probably be complicated or long, defeating the noise measurement idea.But it could be worth a try.I'll ask the guys in our test lab the maker's name. If anyone wants to get one and find out, send me an email.

2. 
   Ron_Rosa | Mar 08, 2001 05:23am | #6

   *OK , Here is an idea that may have been over looked, it could be the drain pipe, You said he had to cover it (the drain) up when he performed the test. You also said you had access underneath , you need to look there when it is leaking. It will give you a good idea to where the leak is coming from. As for the parapet caps (wood), that is where I would start , Cap them with a good heavy gauge coping. Use 15 lb. felt as a seamless cap underneath. Good Luck By the way 1" up the wall is not a good idea at least 5" please. If he has flashing over it then it better be sealed up good and that should at least go up the wall 5".

3. 
   Dan_P. | Mar 08, 2001 11:30pm | #7

   *Ron, You have a very good point there ( I can tell you are a pro!).Once I had the roof flooded and by spraying the walls I gotthe leak started. The drain was capped shut.Then I opened the drain and came down looking at the leak dripping. I noticed an increase in the frequency of the water droplets drippingdown underneath. I attributed that to a possible leak through thedrain. What I think is happening is that the drain could be leakingunder the topcoat but over the plywood. It floods underneath andworks its way against the slope to get to the edges where the leakgets over a joist and down to the garage. I think that's whyit takes it so long to get started. The drain lookslike a funnel shaped piece of PVC that I think has a lip that iswedged over the plywood and under the flooring material whatever itis. Then it has the bottom "funnel piece" that is fastened by nails to the plywood. In heavy rainy days I see a little bit of moisture in its perimeter but not a full blown leak. This roofby no measure meets the standards you are describing for a roof.I managed to reduce the leak from a bucket to half a cup bydoing small fix ups here and there but I didn't get it fully contained. That's why I thought I could track the last tricklewith some kind of leak detector that apparantly doesn't exist.I guess this summmer I will just do a complete overhaul and redothe whole thing. I was looking at another thread right here aboutflat roofing materials. I am looking at the suggestions madethere. Oh one last thing... Two walls on the roof DON'T haveflashing at all! One being the side that leaks underneath.But the flooring goes up about three inches or so on that wall and I sealed the stucco with Dry-Lock. Should I cut the stuccoand add flashing to those two walls? Those two walls have sliding glass patio doors on them.Many thanks for your suggestions.

4. 
   Ron_Budgell | Mar 09, 2001 12:05am | #8

   *I have always found that the best time to look for a leak is when things are drying up after the rain. The leak location will continue to leak water back for some little time after everything else is dry. On the other hand, nothing works all the time.Good luck with it.

5. 
   Ron_Rosa | Mar 09, 2001 07:45am | #9

   *If that wall is leaking and has no flashing up the wall behind the stucco, then that is your leak for sure. Its tuff to find the perfect solution with the the stucco already there but you could cut a groove in the stucco with a diamond blade mounted on a grinder, 8 " off the roof, then flash 4" on the roof, with the same piece going 6" up. Your total peice of flashing would be 10" bent in the shape of a L. You could then install another peice of flashing, counter flashed over that one and a 1/2 inch into your cut , then seal. If the stucco has been sealed this would solve your problem. Make sure you seal the flashing to the roof with the right primers , sealers, and mesh. How high off the roof are those sliders? If you use this area a lot as a porch or hang out, I have a great product for your new roof. Polar Systems, its a fiber glass product that looks great and stands up well to traffic.

6. 
   Dan_P. | Mar 09, 2001 08:29pm | #10

   *Ron, great tips! But I am having a hard time picturing in myhead how this flashing and counter flashing is fitted.Here is a cartoon of what the place looks like.My digital camera wasn't available so I resorted to anapproximate sketch. Underneath the patio is a garage not shownin the sketch. I showed the flat roof/ patio floor with a dotted line. The two sides of the patio adjacent to the shortwalls do have flashing. However their quality remains questionableat best.I am also thinking of covering this whole area with a glass patioroof parallel to the shingle roof. Any design ideas? That wouldbe very helpfull too. The Polar Systerm, is there a web site describing the product?How does that compare to Duratek you guys were talking abouton another thread here?

7. 
   Dan_P. | Mar 09, 2001 08:35pm | #11

   *Hummm... depending on your viewer this picture may lookway zoomed in. Try to zoom it out to fit the page ifyou can't see it well. Sorry about that!

2. 
   Dan_P. | Mar 09, 2001 08:35pm | #12

   *
   Is there a high tech way for a "visual" leak detection in a roof?
   Like using night goggles or some other device that would detect
   some kind of thermal radiation or temperature gradient between warm and
   cold ( dry and leaky) areas? I have been fighting an insidious leak off
   and on. I have managed to stop it for a while only to see it work its
   way in again. This is a flat roof over a garage. It seems like the leak
   is through the sliding glass doors or the porous stucco walls around the
   roof rather than from the roof itself. I can flood the roof up to the
   threshold like a bath tub and see no leaks after many hours. The
   leak starts only when there are high winds and the rain blasts against
   the doors and the south-facing wall for a day or so. So it is very
   hard to detect it by spraying water in the area. Since it is a slow to
   get started it is hard to detect where it is. Any clues on how to go about
   locating the source of the leak would be appreciated.
   Thanks.