OK…so here’s my problem…..
I have a 75 gal., gas fired, Lochinvar water heater. I’m trying to remember how old it is. I’m thinking 5 or 6 years….wife and brother (who installed it) feel it’s older than that.
Anyway…..for the past two days (after my wife, daughters and I have showered), I have found water, all around the base of the unit on the basement floor. Not an incredible amount…..just enough to completely surround the base of the unit.
I don’t notice any obvious leaks from body of unit, or the pipes going to or coming from……so I’m assuming that it must be the pressure relief valve.
I have a pressure reduction valve on the main water line into the house which reads 65…..and has since we installed it.
Any ideas what might be causing the leak? Can the pressure relief valve on the heater be broken? Any options I’m overlooking? Ways to test water heaters condition?
I’m at a loss.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Replies
PRVs can "break". Might wanna but a bucket under it for a day or so to isolate the problem and rule out a tank leak.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
I was thinking of that.....no harm can come from the water filling the bucket to above the PRV outlet right? (The pipe that drains the outlet downward, is only a few inches from floor)
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
Sustained flue gas condensation! You're seeing colder inlet temperature, which reduces the capacity and it sounds like you're using up most of the stored heated water. As a result, you end up with a tank full of very cold water. During the combustion process, the hot flue gasses are coming into contact with the cold tank surface and they fall below condensing temps (about 350F). Sustained flue gas condensation will, sometimes, accumulate and be sufficient in volume to exit the tank and be seen on the floor or be found running across the floor. Often mistaken for a leak.
So very true.
roger
Why would that just start happening all of a sudden?
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
I had two 50 gal machines side by side, in parallel. One leaked and the other did not. Wasn't no condensation involved. The water was on the floor, not around the bonnett. Somewhere, somehow, the leak was coming out of the lower area. It slowly leaked for about a year until I recently had both taken out and replaced with a Tagachi.
Bottomline, who cares where the leak is coming from? The unit needs to be replaced. Leave the leak to those whom care.
Bottomline, who cares where the leak is coming from? The unit needs to be replaced. Leave the leak to those whom care.
I care. I should get AT LEAST 10 years out of a water heater, no? This one was sold to me as being "the best of the best", from my local plumbing supplier.
If it were a leak in the tank, wouldn't it be constant?
I have only noticed water in the morning, after showers, and only for the past two days.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
Another thing I noticed about my tanks - which could be an issue...
I've been in the house for 5 years. Just had them taken out. During those 5 years, I had two different plumbers change the incoming lines (so's it was done twice a coupla years apart) due to corrosion. They DID use dielectric couplings both times. Although at removal, they were in fairly good shape.
I figger somehow, some current was flowing thru them.
Point being, perhaps if I had done a necroscopy like Junkhound, I would have found additional corrosion somewhere.
I wonder if the new tankless will have similar corrosion? It does not have contact with the floor, though. And it's electrical hookup is a two line 12 volt from the transformer.
DY473 hit the nail right on the head imo. Cold water + cold air condensing on the cold tank. All three of you are draining it during cold temps. It makes sense to me.
Is your house moisture up these days? That would be another contributing factor.
Does the flue for the gas fired water heater go through the attic all by itself? No furnace in the same flue? Cold air in the attic could be condensing the water out of the flue gasses and it is dripping back down. check the top of the tank where the flue starts.
After all three of you shower go check the water heater and listen for drops of water hissing as they fall past the burner. i think I've heard that before but can't remember when or where.
Edited 1/26/2008 9:52 pm ET by popawheelie
Thanks pop.....I believe we have it figured out.
I was able to determine water was coming from relief valve.
Expansion tank should do the trick.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
No harm will come. I'd guess it's not the PRV anyhooz. Usually when these things start to leak, the drip is continuous.
The condensation suggestion sounds like it might have merit. Things that can cause this to start happening suddenly can relate to flu blockages -- critter, ice, etc. Might warrant a draft check, just to be sure.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
To get the are call the company with the serial # and be shocked how old it really is. Bets time to check for leaks is at a time when its not been used for a while. ie first thing in the morning, if you have wet then and its not from the valve odds on its the tank.
My son's gas water heater developed a real tank leak, only 8 YO.
The side of the outer case was split, DIL thought one of the kids had kicked it, told her that would not cause a leak.
Long story short, replaced it after checking all connections, etc..
Tore it fully down to determine cause of leak.
Turns out it had a defective seam weld on the side of the tank, that obviously had been repaired (at the factory, as was under the rigid foam insulation) by an unskilled welder - corroded a pinhole thru the weld.
Spent less time replacing it than it would have taken to re-weld myself, plus that rigid foam is not easy to get thru or very safe to weld around. Was in a nice location, could back the truck right up to the stand it was on in their garage.
Usually the insides of the tank are coated with glass, or at least that`s what they call it. Probably baked on porcelain. If that cracks, no amount of welding is going to solve your problem. It`s the `glass`` which prevents all your hot water from going rusty.
roger
Why not turn on some taps ie a shower or two and go and watch the thing, worst case you will be out a tank of hot water. Then isotate it to leak condesation etc. Also one thing to look at is do you have those auto insulating valve nipples that close when no water is running and open when it is, if so maybe the leak is at the out going flex connectors washer. Just a thought, sound good in theory.
Wallyo
EXPANSION TANK!
I am surprised that no one has mentioned it.
You need one with a PRV.
Also a PRV might have failed and allowed the pressure to increase.
For about $10 you can get a pressure gage with peak recording tatletale with a hose screw on fitting.
Connect one of them up and run hot water untill it goes warm.
Then watch the tank and pressure gaguge as it heats up the cold tank.
If the pressure starts out at over 80 psi the PRV needs fixing/adjusting.
If you need an expansion tank the pressure will build to over 150 psi and the excess pressure will be reduced by water dribbling out fo the safety vavle.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Just trying to make sure I'm following you correctly....
You saying the water heater should have an expansion tank for the "pressure relief valve"? Or that I need an expansion tank somewhere because of the "pressure reducing valve" on my incoming main. (The latter being the "PRV" that I am familiar with)
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
When water heats up it expands. Without a PRV or a backfow valve* (checkvalve) the expanding water will backup into the city mains.But the PRV or backflow preventer keeps the water from flowing backwards. And water is basically non-compressable so that as it expands the pressure will build up into the safety vavle releases a little water.And expansion tank is charged with air so that the expanding water can flow into it can compress the air. The pressure does rise, but only a very little amount.Many cities are installing these at the meter or tap and people don't know until they start getting leaks..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill....thanks for the time...and patience. I know just enough about plumbing to be dangerous.
As I understand it, the PRV (pressure reduction valve) on my main does just what it says.....reduces the water pressure coming into the house. It was installed shortly after we purchased the home some 14 yrs. ago. The pressure coming in, had been up around 160 psi(?). It has been around 65 ever since.
Does this valve also act to prevent backflow.....or are you talking about a different valve altogether?
Also, not sure why I would (might) need an expansion tank after 14 yrs. in the house?
Again....thanks for patience.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
The pressure reducing valve effectively prevents backflow. You need the expansion tank.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Cities can install a separate backflow prevent valve.But the PRV also acts as a backflow preventer, although not qualified to act as such when you have a potential contamination condition.The PRV is basically a valve that is automatically open and closed to control the downstream pressure.Start with the downstream pipes empty and turn on the water from the street. The PRV will sense the zero pressure in the pipe and open the vavle. As water flows in the pressure rises until it reaches the setting (50 psi for example). Then the valve closes. With 160 psi on the street side and 50 on the house side. Now if that valve seal is leaking the pressure on the house side will slowly increase to the 160 psi, which is enough to open the WH safety valve. So that might be your problem. Again the gugage will show you what is going on.When water is drawn the house pressure will drop and the valve starts to open. It will open whatever amount is needs to maintain (more or less) the down stream pressure depending on the amount of flow.http://www.watts.com/pro/divisions/watersafety_flowcontrol/learnabout/learnabout_wprv.asphttp://www.watts.com/pro/divisions/watersafety_flowcontrol/learnabout/learnabout_thermexpansion.asp.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks for the info Bill.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
Edited 1/24/2008 4:50 pm ET by JDRHI
OK....I've done a little detective work.
First a little more backround info....the heater only started to leak three days ago. This coincides with the day I repaired a leaky shower faucet. Faucet had been leaking for a while.... a rather steady stream, as opposed to just a drip.
Now.... going on the ideas you've put forth....the water heater is still leaking. Same time everyday, after morning showers. It is coming from the relief valve on the heater.....so we can eliminate, cracked tank, condensation, etc.
The main water line into my house has a guage (the one you suggested purchasing, perhaps?) directly after the PRV (Pressure Reduction Valve).
I have been taking note of its readings at various times during yesterday and today. It looks as though when water is being used intermitently....faucet here, tolet flush there...the pressure is about 55-65 PSI.
Looking at it earlier today, with no one home and water having not been run in a while, the pressure had crept up to about 75 PSI.
I ran the hot water in the tub for a while in an attempt to kick the water heater on to see how long before pressure relief valve on unit opened. It looks as though it doesn't open until unit has been heating for some time....10-15 minutes perhaps.
I also took note of the PRV on the main water line. It had kicked WAY up over 100 PSI (the highest reading on the guage), and is remaining there for about 15 to 20 minutes after water has been shut off, before gradually dropping down.
Does this sound typical? Or is my PRV not working properly? (I didn't think it would allow pressure to get that high at any time)
Change the valve only? Add an expansion tank?
Again....thanks for everything.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
Add an expansion tank. The leaky shower was acting as a relief valve.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
That's what I'm thinking.
Where in line does the expansion tank go? Where main enters house....somewhere further along?
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
Anywhere on the cold water line, after the pressure reducing valve. It needs to be several feet from the water heater so that hot water doesn't back up into it and shorten the life of the bladder.The thing is about the size and form factor of a freon cannister, if you've seen one of those -- kinda propane tank shape but only about a gallon or two capacity. They're available with "vampire" fittings so they can be installed on copper without soldering.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
I would do both. Sounds to me as if your PRV (pressure Reduction valve) isn't functioning quite right as it is , plus the expansion tank will balance the system pressure out as the tank temp/pressure climbs. 110 lbs. is a lot of pressure on the whole system , not just the tank. Eventually the pressure relief valve will fail or get some crud caught in it that will keep it from closing if it has to keep opening and closing.
Edited 1/25/2008 12:43 pm by dovetail97128
No real evidence that the reducer valve is malfunctioning, based on the (somewhat muddled) description. If you have high pressure while a faucet is set to a slight trickle then that would indicate a malfunction.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
My experience with pressure regulating valves is limited. However those that I have installed for residences here run at about 55-60 psi. His gauge shows 50-55 while during a normal days activities, then climbs to 75 , then to 110. That seems excessive to me.
If I am understanding his system correctly that means his entire system is being pushed to 110 psi. That is excessive for most homes. Unless he has a back flow preventer valve right at the hot water heater cold inlet then pressure reading on the incoming side of the system would be a reading of both hot and cold water sides of the system if I am not mistaken in my understanding of the situation. I may well be misunderstanding the set up though.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
No backflow preventer at all.
Pressure reduction valve as main enters house.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
In sequence: Incoming line, Reduction valve, pressure gauge , "T" in cold incoming to feed cold side of system and feed H.W. heater inlet side. If that is the order of items then the pressure gauge is in fact reading the whole system and I believe 110 lbs. to be excessive even for short periods of time for a residence. Puts undue and unnecessary strain on every valve in the system, especially automatic valves as in the D.Washer and clothes washer. Holler out to plumbbill he would have a much more experienced view of it than I ..
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Puts undue and unnecessary strain on every valve in the system....that's my biggest fear.
Holler out to plumbbill....not a bad idea.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
The rise in presser to over 100 PSI happens ONLY when the WH is is heating a large quanity of cold water causing it to expand.That is why he needs an expansion tank.A PRV would not only fail when WH is running and work normally other times..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I am not disagreeing that the expansion tank is needed. I suggested both items be done. I am saying that if his gauge reads 75 psi and is located on the incoming cold line then his whole system is reaching that pressure. I am more than happy to be entirely wrong with my suppositions.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Yes, the whole systemm is reaching that pressure.The water heater is also a non-directional device. When it heats up and expands the water then the pressure in the all of the lines rise.The PRV might be leaking slightly. But I also gave a reason several message back as to my the pressure might be rising to 75 psi. That is cold water is run and the water in the pipes are warming up to room temp.Won't really know for sure unitl he installs the exapansion tank.A leaking PRV valve would show a slow rise, but steady rise in pressure over minutes or 10's of minutes) and keep rising until it reaches the main pressure or safety opens. But he is not reporting it.The big rise is after the WH starts heating a large quantiy of cold water..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Understood.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
One thing that just popped into my mind was the thermostat malfuncioning. I haven't lived with gas HW for years but have had electric with bad thermostats that didn't shut off when reaching the set limit. Symptom was the Relief valve openingn for short periods after the tank had heated up. Could this be possible in his case?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Yes, it is possible.But he still need an expansion tank.The other part of the mystery is that just before this he had a small leak in the shower, which can releave small excess pressures. and he did not not have the safety releasing.If the thermostat was sticking he it would not have stopped at just a few dropped, but with the tank full of over heated water there would be lots of supper heated water comming out of the safety..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I am following your logic. Makes sense.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
A pressure reducing valve is effectively a check valve. When the water in the water heater expands, there is no place for it to go, so the pressure increases. The reducing valve can't let the water flow back the other way because that would be to a higher pressure, and besides the high pressure on the house side is forcing the valve closed.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Dan, I understand the problem. I have personal experience with a pressure reducing valve malfunctioning and leaking . I ended up with 90psi in a house as result of such a problem. gauge would show 55psi or so when water had just been run, a short time later the gauge would show an increase. Later yet it would top off at line pressure in the main (90psi) . Fix was to dig up the valve which was located just behind the meter at the street. I may not be correct , and I have said so , but I do understand what can happen with a leaking reduction valve.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
But until you see that happen with the water heater turned off you've no evidence of a valve malfunction.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
I do not understand what point you are trying got make. I think the OP has enough info to start looking for the exact problem now after looking at the possibilities. Whether I was right or wrong doesn't matter to me, as long as he can find what is wrong with his system. I followed the logic explaining why it was more likely to other issues besides the reduction valve and concur. What is interesting to me is that my pressure relief valve is factory set to open at 150 psi./ 200 deg. far. An average setting I believe. If his is set approximately the same how come it is opening ?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Be interested in plumbbills take on the situation if you care to share .
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Because the pressure gets up that high, briefly, before the valve opens and drops it down to, say 100. The valve is intentionally made slow-closing, so it will "belch" rather than weeping.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
That makes sense , Thanks.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
You're misunderstanding the problem.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
(somewhat muddled) description
I heard that!
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
That sounds EXACTLY like a lack of expansion tank problem.In the past the leaking shower provided the "escape path". It allowed the excess pressure from the water expansion to bleed off.Now that you fixed that there is no place for pressure to bleed off because it is completely closed.BTW, I have head that there was an old fix for this. It used a special toilet fill valve. And if the pressure built up the valve opened and leaked water in to the bowl via the little refill tube. But I have never seen one and don't know if they are still made or not."Looking at it earlier today, with no one home and water having not been run in a while, the pressure had crept up to about 75 PSI."You might have a leaking PRV, but that small of change is probably just do to thermo expansion. Even if you just run cold water you have replaced the water in the lines with maybe 50*F water and that will warm up to room temp over time."Or is my PRV not working properly? (I didn't think it would allow pressure to get that high at any time)"The PRV has no control over the downstream pressure. All it can do is to shut off water from the main.If you are getting backpressure from water in the tank expanding then it has no way to "get rid" fo that pressure..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Great....one more thing to add to my list of things to do around here.
Thanks for everything Bill.....and everyone else.
You guys are the best. No wonder I spend so much time here!
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
Put a bucket under the pressure relief valve, or push a little bread into the valve outlet to detect water coming out.
If it is the relief valve, most likely you're experiencing the "normal" problem that occurs with a pressure reducing or backflow valve, and you need to have an expansion tank installed.
If it's not the relief valve, and the water isn't maybe leaking from somewhere else, then your water heater is toast.
The possibility of condensation is one I forget. Kind of unlikely, as the water in the heater must be stone cold for it to happen, but worth considering.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
No opinion, but just a case study: A similar thing happened to me; I got away with ignoring it for about 2 years, then the water became too much and I had to replace it. It was a leak in the tank itself. Hard water can cause corrosion; that's what I suspected [my tank was about 10 yo].
OK as requested I read 47 posts----- well I did just glance over some ;-)
You have an expansion problem.
The shower you fixed was relieving the pressure build up of thermal expansion as others have stated.
The expansion tank needs to be be on the cold side & after any check valves that may be on the system.
Sounds like you don't have a circ so that placement is not an issue.
Relief valves once "popped" generally don't seal very well, I would suggest getting a new one---- Temp & pressure relief.
ST-5 is the size you're looking for http://www.amtrol.com/pdf/TXT%20Brochure%209003-032.pdf
OOPS.
I woke up this morning & found that I didn't post this------ Got distracted by the DW ;-)
In search of a new tagline, don't worry I'm sure I'll find one that will bother somebody.
;-þThanks for posting your answer.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Relief valves once "popped" generally don't seal very well, I would suggest getting a new one---- Temp & pressure relief.
I was thinking along the same line. The valve may be weak or not seating well. I had a similiar problem and tried to reseat it by popping it myself and seemed to work for a while but ended up replacing the valve and all was ok after that.
“Some people wonder all their lives if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem.” Reagan....
Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor. -Truman Capote
I recently saw Rich,the plumber on Ask This Old House, diagnose and correct this same problem, i.e. a leaking tank caused by pressure build-up. As here, the culprit was a PRV or backflow prevent valve (can't remember which) and the cure was an expansion tank. As usual, he had a "cutaway" to show how the tank works. Great plumbing minds think alike.
Thanks brotha....ran into my neighbor.....also a plumber..... this afternoon, and he confirms what youse guys are saying.
He actually helped install the PRV on the house back when we bought. Said he thought about recomending the expansion tank then, but doesn't do much residential work, and didn't think they were all too common.
Once again....thanks to everyone!
This thread oughtta get the wife off my back about spending so much time on here! LOL
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
There is another option besides the expansion tank. It's a toilet fill valve that will "leak" at pressures over about 100PSI, bleading off the pressure from the expansion (or a flaky pressure regulator). Don't have a brand/model for the valve, though.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Yeah....I think Bill mentioned something like that. I don't know why....but that just sounds kinda hokey.
I'll go the expansion tank route.
Thanks again for all your input Dan.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements