I have a leak in the water pipe that is outside the house. The water company does not repair this because the leak is inward side of the street curb. I assume the leak is close to the house because the first trickle of water (and the standing water that has not dried out) was found only about a foot from the foundation.
Since I don’t have the leak insurance, I planned to do the repair myself. I even reserved a small backhoe. Then today, someone from the water company came to the house to check on the repair progress. During the conversation, he said that the repair can be made without digging.
How is this done? Do the plumbers have special tools for locating and repairing the leak? If this can be done, how reliable is the repair?
Thank you all in advance.
Replies
>>During the conversation, he said that the repair can be made without digging.<<
Uhhhhhh? I'll be watching replies with you.
It would seem to me that if 1) the pipe is underground and 2) you cannot see the leaking section - you would have to dig to gain access.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
In some cases they use old pipe to pull in new copper tubing.
You still need a big hole by the street connection.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I don't have the answer to your question but it sure seems like the water company would be interested in making the repair if the leak were upstream of the meter which it sounds like it is, no?
Most municipal water supply responsibilty stops at the property line regardless of the location of the meter. Someone from the water company that gives out names of plumbers makes me think someone is trying to screw the original post!.....................................
"If all all else fails, read the directions"
Where is the water meter? Here in the south, the water meter is at the street, just at the the property line to street right of way edge, where as one poster here (in RI) showed a water meter in the basement, which I guess is common up north.
What state/area do you live in? Leading up to how deep do you think the pipe is?
Is the "foundation" a crawl space, basement, or what?
If the water supply pipe has sprung a leak "on it's own" what makes you think that if you repair the current leak, another leak won't appear 3' (or whatever) up or down the line from the repair several months later? Is the pipe copper or plastic?
Thank you all for your interest. I live in northern NJ. The meter is in the house (in the basement). There is the water company's shut off by the street curb, and I think all water pipes around here are below frost depth, 3-4 feet. Because of the landscaping, the suspected leak is under about 7-8 feet of dirt, although because of the slope in the landscape I don't have to dig straight under.
Let me explain a little more about the water company's man. I put this post in the first person to make the explanation simple, but all of this is happening at my parents' house. The inspector talked to my mother who did not wholey understand the inspector nor ask the "how repair" questions. Inspector has, instead, gave her a friend's number who I assume is a plumber. At this point, I choose to take the referral on good faith, and I will get other repair estimates based on not having to dig. If the repair can be made with some special tool or precision locator, I want to leave it to the plumber. The total replacement of the pipe (pulling the pipe from the street) is not possible financially, and after this repair is made, I am hoping the water company's insurance will accept the coverage application for any future leaks.
I just wondered how a pipe can be repaired without physically exposing the pipe. Do the plumbers locate the leak with some sensor and then dig straight down with an auger? Is there some kind of compound that, when injected into the pipe, plug up small holes?
Another problem is shutting off the street side valves. If I am digging, I want to shut off both water and gas, during the dig and repair. The pipes were located from the ground by the utility-related company in this state. Both water and gas companies told me they don't have the shut-off service, only on emergencies. The town's building inspector told me to call the fire department who will call the utility companies. This seems like a huge waste of time. At this point it looks like it will be better to look for a plumber, but the labor cost around here and my diy instincts tell me otherwise. The research tells me so far that this repair can be made by a plumber without my parents taking out a second mortgage, and it may cost more for me to rent the backhoe and call for plumber to shut off the service, if plumbers do that.
Anyway, thank you again for any suggestion you can give, and I will post any results. Thank you.
p.s. I just read the last message. Thank you for the details. If this is what the water company is talking about, it looks like a lot of digging is necessary anyway. The pipe is copper, at least what I see in the basement. Also, the supply pipe does not come through the foundation wall, it comes through the slab floor which makes me think the supply pipe was laid under the footing. Maybe to lessen the chance of leaking around the pipe. The supply is one inch copper and the house is 56 years old.
Edited 7/10/2007 10:46 am ET by k1c
We replaced our water supply last year using the method the water department spoke about. Its a very simple concept, but you need the specific tools. The line we replaced was cement lined galvanized pipe that runs about 80ft from the house to the curb shut off, then about 20 ft from that shut off to the main in the street. We replaced the supply with 1" ABS that is used mostly here, the other option is soft copper (I think K or one of the thicker sizes. I don't think you could do a replacement with copper without digging. We are in the suburbs outside boston, so there are no sidewalks and such to deal with.
What you do is dig the hole at the curb shut off and expose the water line. Shut off the water and cut the pipe on the house side. Then go into the house where the line enters and undo the fittings. Slide a cable line down the existing water line until your at the end. On the end of the cable on the house side you need to have a special fitting. It basically resembles a socket in shape but its solid and stepped off on one end. There are about 8 little bolts that hold the two halves tight to the cable. On the stepped off end there are a few holes. You slide the abs piping onto the end (its basically like a 1" roll of pex, soft and somewhat flexible). Then you put two framing nails through the piping and the spud to attach them. That end is now ready to be pulled.
On the shut off side where you dug the hole, you attach a scissor puller. This puller grabs on to cable and holds tighter the more you pull. It is a similar concept to this, but you need one that grabs on to cable. http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_334731_334731
You attach that to the cable then the bucket of a backhoe and start pulling. The spud attachment at the end of the cable grabs the existing pipe and starts pulling it through the hole. As it slides through the ground, you need someone feeding the abs tubing through behind it. The tubing just follows the path of the old pipe until it reaches the hole you dug. It will work well if you have a fairly straight run and you do not have bad fill around it.
The spud and the scissor puller are the only things you need in addition to the backhoe. You might be able to borrow them from the town, otherwise you might be out of luck since they are fairly unique for this purpose. I should have taken a few pictures when we did it but I just wanted the water back on. If I have a chance, I do a web search and see if I can find the two items that you need.
I have never heard of ABS used for supply lines. Nor any that does not come as ridgit sticks.Was it a PE (polyethalane)? Or maybe PEX..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Yeah, I talked to the supply house that has the monopoly on all the water meters and materials for all the towns around here. Its 1" polyethylene tubing. I know I've heard them call it ABS too. But its like pex, not at all like the ABS for waste lines.The company that all the material comes from is approved by the towns and they are pretty much the only ones that have any of the materials around here. All the towns have agreements with the company and approve of certain meters, materials, etc. It's http://www.tisales.com That might help out some.
If it really is polyethylene don't install it. The water works industry has spent a billion plus dollars getting it out of the systems, because it fails after about ten to twenty years, (the water district I worked for spent over $500,000 replacing poly service laterals with copper).
Also, the fact that the leak is surfacing in a given location does not necessarily mean that the leak is there. Water can follow pipe bedding for along ways before it comes up. We once had water coming out of the valve can for a 15-inch valve. We figured the valve was leaking, and dug it up to repair/replace it. Well it was fine but the water was pouring out of the pipe backfill on one side of it. So, we started digging up the main. Chasing the leak up the middle of the road and cutting up the pavement. We went up the road seven hundred feet, came to an 8-inch line that "tee"ed off and followed it for a couple of hundred feet until we got to a 2-inch service, and followed it up to the meter, and found our leak.
My parents have decided to go with the referred plumber. I have some confidence in him also, although when I first heard about this referral, I also was alarmed. For one thing, he said that such underground repairs are not done with solders. There is some sort of fitting that repairs the pin hole, and at least by phone description it is not common clamp with rubber washer. I plan to be present during the whole work and the plumber is willing to sign contract and only be paid when the repair is finished. Only thing that really worries me is that he wants to dig about 7-8 feet down with couple of laborers, and he expects to finish in one or maybe two afternoons. He also has his own wrench (there is a name for this which I forgot) to shut off the water at the street.
I am hoping the referral was made with some confidence and good faith, and because I know at least that digging should go carefully and will be able to confirm the repair by eye (I renovated my house but never had to think about the buried pipe), I feel good enough about the plumber. He is also aware of how the trench should be refilled.
After this repair is made, they will sign up for the insurance, which is called Leak Guard.
Thank you again for your responses.
I also found this link. I should have done a search earlier, it would have saved me from describing it to everyone. This link has the picture and the two tools that I mentioned you need to pull the line. The spud we used was a little different but did the same thing.http://www.hammerheadmole.com/products/waterline_slitters.htm