Greetings…. I contracted with a client to remodel a kitchen, after I left a final bill they apparently had some minor electrical problem and called in a friend who was an electrical contractor to repair it and are trying to take the cost out of my final payment. I know this is illegal as: 1. I was not given a chance to recitify the problem. 2. I had a arbitration clause in my contract that any dispute had to go to arbitration.
I am in California and am going to arbitration to get my money but would like to be armed with some specific laws if possible. Anybody ever run into this kind of bulls?’t before?
T.I.A.
Jim
Replies
A lot of customers will play a game like this, figuring (quite rightly) that most contractors won't consider it worth the cost to fight in court for a bill or two. Heard it a hundred times.
Jim, even a minor electrical problem equates to danger of fire to most customers. When were you notified? Before or after they contacted their buddy? This might make a difference in arbitration.
__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I was notified one week before they had their buddy come and after they had used the kitchen for over two weeks.
Jim
Alright, let's get at least your side all the way in the open. What was the problem, how was it rectified and how much?
thanks.__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
okay here's my side.. there is extremely bad relations between the client and me, I had trouble getting paid at every scheduled place. when the cabinets were installed there was a 2 wk. wait for the stone countertops. I fixed it so that they had complete use of the kitchen during this time. after the countertops were installed and we did their final punch list I left them a final bill. six days later I got a letter stating that they were holding back $1000 because one of the breakers popped when they were using the kitchen and they were having a licensed electrician come out and evalate and that any work, weather it was from my work or from work I should have done during remodel, was going to come out of the money that they were holding. the electrician came out one week later, which makes me question the client's fear of fire if they waited so long, and found one minor problem being that the microwave wasn't on a dedicated circuit and some bogus problems like " the refrigerator needs a new circuit" when there was nothing wrong with the one that was there. also I installed plugmode strips under the upper cabinets because the people wanted nothing on the back walls between upper and lower cabinets. I installed gfi outlets in the upper cabinets and ran the plugmodes off the load side of the gfi thereby not having to connect a ground wire due to extremely limited space in the plugmode. the electrician called this out as ungrounded outlets that needed to be replaced. however this is allowed by code. My contract has an arbitration clause that any claims or problems will be settled in arbitration.
So what do you think?
Jim
and one more thing.. the electrician's bill was $950... coinsidence or what???
Jim,
Not to be a stick in your eye about this, but...........
You did electrical work. Are you a licensed electrician? If you are not, you might want to consider a rapid backpeddle in your demands for satisfaction by arbitration.
Most jurisdictions REQUIRE electrical work to be performed by a LICENSED electrical tradesperson or their employees peforming under their license. You might want to check that out for your area. If you have perhaps circumvented some rules (that you may or may not have been aware of) you could be at risk from the authorities should it come to light. Not only that, but the homeowners insurance could deny coverage should there be ever be a problem in the future and you could then be taken for everything you own or will own in the future.
One answer you could present to your customer would be a humble apology for not getting your butt right over to take care of a potentially serious problem and a very quick agreement to foot the bill (out of the retained money) for the actual work of the electrician. A competent electrician should be able to make the fixes you described very readily and for a lot less than $1000. An honest electrician, not in cahoots with the homeowner, would give you an honest price. Code notwithstanding, if a LICENSED electrician (and friend of the owner) says the wiring is wrong - then it IS WRONG. Tough luck buddy. Let us know what the outcome is.
Ralph: "Licensed Electrician" does not equal "God" or "Judge and Jury".
Most jurisdictions? In the five states I've worked in as/for licensed contractors (general, HVAC, and/or engineering), if the electrical work is incidental to a larger project, then the general can do it. As with other contractors. The general can't bid a, for instance, replace-the-distribution-panel job. Only do the work as part of a larger project. Most generals are pretty well up on the common residential applications of the plumbing and electrical codes.
Wiring a hydroelectric dam? A 200-hp, remote-controlled municipal water pump? Yeah, get an electrician. And not just any "licensed electrician" but one that specializes in such work.
But wiring a microwave? Kitchen outlets? Call an electrician? Not in most general contracting jobs.
David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Dave... in RI.. I'd have to agree with Ralph...homeowners can do their own wiring and plumbing as long as it is inspected.. contractors cannot...
it will depend on his jurisdiction... and I bet he's not allowed under California laws and contracting regulations..
as for arbitration.. i have a clause in all of our contracts.. but mostly it is ther to limit the potential damage ... if he is still owed $3000, my bet is even in arbitration he is not going to get the $950... he'll be lucky to get the $2050.....as always..
but hey, whadda i no ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Right Mike. I'd run away from the arbitration if I were him and settle.Excellence is its own reward!
Mike: I don't know about RI (I've never worked in a state smaller than some glaciers), thanks for the info. Definitely okay in CA as of 6 years ago. Maybe not in some particular cities.
David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Dave..... actually RI is smaller than the city limits of Denver....
it does have twice the population of Alaska , though... and a larger population than 8 other states.. it is the most densely populated state in the United States..
and most of it is woods and ocean....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Actually, that distinction falls to New Jersey, with 1134 people per sq mile as compared to RI's 1003 per mile.
In Mass - electrical, plumbing and gas required to be done by licensed (sp) person.bobl Volo Non Voleo Joe's cheat sheet
I don't mean to bust your bubble but not grounding the Plugmold is a clear violation in both the NEC and all codes I am aware of. The Exception extends only to existing installations that do not have ground conductor. Your Plugmold, being a new installation, must be properly grounded.
While a judgement call and not specifically required by the code putting the refrigerator and any freezers on seperate circuits as a value added touch that many people will pay more for. Unless there is some reason not to I do it as a matter of course.
The same applies, possibly more so, for the microwave. Many of these beasts draw 1800+ watts. Even if the microwave initially installed is a smaller one you never know when the HOs will upgrade. On upscale houses or as a added option I run 10/2 for a dedicated circuit all the way to the box. This allows them to upgrade to a combination microwave/ convection oven, all the rage with some yuppies, without rewiring.
As for the $900. I don't know. I will say that avoiding problems while the walls are open is cheaper than correcting problems when the finish surfaces are in place. There is often a premium added to clean up after the fact.
Find a friendly electrician that will consult on such jobs in the future. For a fraction of the cost, in both money and reputation, an electrician could have handled the problems.
Whether you are allowed to do electrical work is coverd by your local and state laws. You've heard both sides of that one here. I always run dedicated circuits for microwaves and refrigerators. It doesn't make much sense not to. I think you gave the customers reasons to be concerned based on what you've said.
But 950 does sound exhorbitant for it. That's enough to rewire half the kitchen, unless there were special access problems.
Bite the bullet and apologize. Walk away from the money on this one and apply the loss to your education budget.Excellence is its own reward!
"Bite the bullet and apologize. Walk away from the money on this one and apply the loss to your education budget."
You have my vote and I consider the lesson cheap.
schellingm I'm right there with you and piffin - cheap education - take em flowers and a good bottle and apologise to them for any problems that might have arisen and run away as fast as you can.
And Jim - next time do all of your work like you were working on your mom and dads house.
It looks to me like we have started Piffins court of contractors law. Of cousre so far we have heard only one side of the story, and already the jury seems a little divided, if you all had to ask me. As is usual with this sort of conflict it seems that there was/ is blame enough to go around. If it is the worse that you ever take it, you will have done well, in my opinion. Best lesson of all, is you probably need better legal advice than what is offered from contractor/tradesmen for free on the website. Very interesting conversation though, and PLEASE let us know what happens, especially if you go through with the arbitration. My two cents, get the other two grand, and chalk it up to education.
DAN
Jim, some questions:
1. Was the minor electrical problem something that you were responsible for? You say you were not given a chance to make it right, would you have taken care of it as part of the original job?
2. Is the amount in dispute reasonable, or are they trying to take advantage of the situation to screw you out of your money?
3. Is the amount in question really worth the time it will cost you? Who pays for the arbitrator's time? There is no guarantee the arbitrator is going to agree with you, or award you the entire amount. What if you lose and are out twice as much?
This sort of crap sucks, win or lose it sucks. Joe H
Jim, I don't know about where you live, but in virginia our trades pull their prmits. If any outside company does work on a current project who is not on the permit, it's considered illegal.
Jim, I agree with a number of the posters about the need to be sure the job is done properly but did want to add my two cents on other issues. As a lawyer, though not licensed in California, I often get involved in similar homeowner/ contractor disputes. While an arbitrator may be sympathetic to a claim that the electrician overcharged - don't count on it being reduced by much because the homeowner paid it and that is all that counts. One tactic that has been successful, is to argue that you weren't responsible for all of the repair costs. For example if you bid the job on a cost plus - and didn't bill for dedicated circuits, the customer would have to pay extra for the dedicated circuit so you shouldn't be responsible for the whole cost of that upgrade/ repair. Even if you bid it on a fixed bid- you are not responsible for the cost of installing dedicated circuits to each appliance unless that is 1) required by code or 2) the standard in your industry in that area or 3) the contract. As to the opportunity to fix, I agree that a one week notice is enough and the homeowners had a right to go elsewhere. As to arbitrators, they generally like a compromise result - unless the facts are overwhelming. In your case- it is quite likely the arbitrator will uphold at least some of the deduction from your bill - though maybe not as much as the homeowner wants. You and the homeowner and the electrician will waste way more time and energy then the amount in dispute. My advise is to review the electrician's bill - if you see anything that looks like an upgrade over your contract - talk to the homeowner and try to agree on a compromise.
Leave a bill?
As in: I'm finished, you've played me for a sucker through the whole job and now I'll just leave this bill here hoping you'll pay it like a nice person.....no rush, I'll eat noodles........
Finish the work, collect the balance..........that day. Questions, warranties, defects, come back the same day to rectify the problem.
What is so tough about this idea?
The one point that may be in your favor is if the friendly neighborhood electrician is not licensed or, even better, not even a contractor. In that case the $950 would be highly negotiable.
If this is the case get your own electrician to check the job so that his signature covers the adequacy of the job. That way the insurance company is happy and even though you eat some of the costs nobody get screwed in court. HOs should be happy getting thing looked at professionally, you get protection by way of the electrical contractor and the bill gets, in the main, paid.
A General can do electrical as part of a general contract in California. The only trades that he *must* subcontract are C-16 (Fire Protection), C-57 (Well Drilling), and of course asbestos removal. In the past, things like Electrical, Plumbing and HVAC had to be subcontracted to the appropriately licensed specialty contractor. I don't recall when that requirement was dropped from the B & P Code.
As a California Contractor and Panelest on an association that has a contract to arbitrate License Board cases, I would advise you to withdraw your demand to arbitrate. I would consider 1 week too long a period to wait with a life - safety issue like electrical wiring. You did not respond immediatley and the owner appears to have acted reasonably in waiting 1 week and then having a professional repair the potentially dangerous problem. You may find that the owner is going to come up with a lot of other items at arbitration by cross complaining against you.
I'm in California. What type of contractors license do you carry. Simple question, and I'll have a simple answer for you.
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927
I hold a B-1 with a Home Improvement one
Jim
That license is not an electrical one. I'd take the hit. You are wrong on this.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927