theres been another post about a unit using r22 and how it’s going to become obsolete before long.so i got to get up to speed on this ,i thought it was like 2020 before anything happened. anybody making a direct replacement like they did for r12?
i’m just trying to position myself on this deal,i fell asleep when the r12 deal happened and it cost me a bunch of dollars. i have rentals and all of them use r22 plus i have stockpiled 8 new central air units all using 22 ,so i’m going to be married to this stuff for a long time.
also should i gather up some r22 acoils or will the new coils work??? thanks larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there’s not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Replies
Ya should get your epa freon licesnse and stock up on R22 (or fund your service folks on extended service contract to stock up, you can also buy R22 if you are buying it only for resale, as in sell/trade it to your tech in 2015), if you have that much cost exposure (e.g personal hedge fund).
Bought a 30# jug last month for $236, a year ago it was $150 for 50#. 2020 is a last ditch date (zero production), production quotas already being cut back, no new equipment allowed after 2010 IIRC.
R410 coils work just fine for R22, they are for higher pressure. R410 still higher cost than R22.
There is a bozo on ebay hawking 'R22a' as a replacement for R22 - BEWARE, that is propane! Obviously, dont use that for anything indoors. Propane does work good as a refrigerant, ya just dont ever want an indoor leak with liability exposure.
i went and paid my money for the test,got all the books etc.
holy krap ! how was i suppose to learn all that mubo jumbo. so there went a 100. i knew some guys that took it when they first started testing,they didn't know anything,had a instructor go thru the test with them so you could write the answers as he went thru it. pretty much a farce then.
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
You need to get rid of that Grainger account and get a good AC supplier ;->
I just checked my price @ Johnstone $183/30lbs R22.
I made 2 purchases this year-- around March @$135 and a couple of months later @ $175. So the price is marching on. But try buying steel ( or other commodity metal) and see how much the price is soaring.
Gone are the days of "Blow & Go"--- start blowing the charge while you go get a beer. Purging linesets and blowing out condensate traps using freon. And chilling your beer with freon... just because you can and it was cheap
I finally bought a recovery unit a couple of years ago, since then I've been very miserly with my usage.
Also my new installations are always done with maintenance and longevity in mind. Double filter housings, access doors to clean A coils etc.
One other issue with 410A and r22 swapout of equipment is the comp. oils. 410A units use P.O.E. oils that are not compatible with the mineral oils used in r22 systems. So all componets need to be changed-including linesets- depending on your faith in system flushing.
An ounce of prevention is definitely worth a pound of cure (or freon)
Yo Fren'
Ray
You are wasting time and money stockpiling equipment.
The coils (R22 and R410A) will interchange, but metering devices will not.
A drop-in replacement for R22 may exist at some point in the future.
Look up "r22 phase out" on the web and start reading.
I've still got an almost full jug of R12 which I hope will be worth something................to someone.
roger
i had a full r12 and sold it to a guy for 225 a while back. if you know some guys that play with 60-80's cars they will usally be interested in some. i just fired my motorhome up 2 weeks ago and it may need charged,sure glad i sold mine.lolif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
about 45$ a pound...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
It's worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
R12 was "worth" a lot more before things like Hot Shot came out... and until the manufacturers worked out the kinks on the 134A conversions...
Attrition has taken out a lot of cars and appliances, too.
Same thing will happen with R22 and the things that use it over time.
Assuming, of course, that the world as we know it today doesn't change.
The phaseout timeline also effects things like parts availability.
Eventually, OEM's will stop making things like replacement compressors for small R22 systems. That will leave the remanufactured market.
Residential compressors are hermetic (welded steel can) and quite difficult to reman and be cost competitive with a new unit.
Replacing a residential compressor only and replacing the whole condensing unit is just about a wash cost wise unless you can do it yourself. Just about any major repair involving removal and replacement of refrigerant approaches the cost of system replacement at the residential level... then you have new + old stuff.
Parts for large or critical commercial systems will continue to be available for a long time- much longer than residential stuff.
Residential indoor coils are thin to cut costs during manufacture and to improve heat transfer. Poor indoor air quality erodes the copper (formicary corrosion).
Old and cheap builder grade units (10 SEER) do not perform well when connected to new 13 SEER minimum components... and those that mismatch 13 SEER equipment on old existing linesets that are too small because they are too cheap to replace it for a proper job just compound efficiency losses and shortened equipment life.
Yeah, it will still cool, but energy use goes up... so you need a supply of matching parts for your condensers... maybe you don't care about that though- typical landlord mentality around here.
I'm not paying the bills and I want it hacked in cheap- but I still want a warranty.
Doing work for landlords sucks.
Eventually, your stockpiled residential R22 equipment will be worthless, just like stashes of R12... unless you find someone that needs what you have stashed away.
You would be better off investing that cash you blew on condensers and replacing or repairing systems as they break... unless you can do it yourself.
If you can't buy R22 yourself, the price spike will negate any "savings" trying to install those stashed systems or to repair leaks. It will be just like R12 and cars- the refrigerant cost will push people to replace old equipment... convert to something else... or forgo repairs. Your stashed equipment will protect you against manufacturer/raw material price increases- but that only makes sense if you can fully support that soon to be obsolete equipment.
Much smarter to stockpile R-410A equipment using the above reasoning.
Right now, R-410A is about the same price as R-22.
But what do I know...
Edited 8/1/2008 6:43 am ET by danski0224
Larry, I'll ask my a/c guy about this stuff next time I see him
hows the air thing going,they say were headed to 104 mon..... larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
I've had a lot going on the past week and I'm trying to rememberMy A/C guy was supposed to come over friday of last week and he didn't show up and didn't call I got under the house and found I guess what you would call a loose connection of ductwork.So I stopped the air leak and things are working a little better.If it gets up to 104 on Monday my A/C will run non stop and the house will "cool off" to about 80 degrees (hopefully)I got a bid for $2,600 for a new trane furnaceI'm kind of thinking about that.I just don't have time to mess with it right now
It's 103 todayI set my thermostat on 75 and the a/c runs non stop The house cools off to 80 degreesThe cold air coming from the register is 60 degrees in the morning and it increases to 65 degrees mid afternoon when it gets the hottest part of the day.Does it sound like the a/c is okay and maybe I just need a little more insulation in the attic?By the way I did check the A coil and it's clean as a whistle.I cleaned it a little bit but it was not dirty when I opened it up.It was not dirty when I checked it five years ago when I got hereI was told the a coil would not get dirty if the furnace filters are changed on a regular basis
Since all is clean and good airflow;
Ya dont want to hear this, but if the bigger line going into the outside unit is not cold to the touch or have at least a little ice on it if it is humid, ya probably need a shot of freon.
PS: how big of a house and how big of a unit? If undersized at 103F, maybe OK.
Was in Tempe AZ once when it was 127F outside, drove the near new rental car in low all the time to keep the engine running fast enough to get the inside of car down to 90F.
Edited 8/4/2008 7:07 pm ET by junkhound
It's a 1250 ft house and a two and a half ton a/c unitThe large copper line going into the outside a/c is ice cold.Brrrrr
You are probably at your balance point at 103F unless the house is super well insulated with no sun coming in thru the windows.
It's not well insulated.I put a new roof on last summer and tore off a gravel roof and a lot of debris fell inside the attic and probably smashed what little insulation I had to begin with.It's a 3 - 12 roof and impossible to get in the attic because it's so small.but I think I'm going to try blowing in insulationI have cut the ceiling out of a closet in the middle of the house and may be able to stand on a ladder and shoot the insulation across the attic.Thanks for your input. I'm getting frustrated and even considering buying a 300 dollar window air at home teacup
your dropping 20 degrees over the coil,i don't think thats to bad,maybe someone will answer just what the spec should be. seems like in cars you shot for 30 degree but you have no long duct work.
in therory if your house was dead tight,with r value to the moon that air would freeze you out,becuase once it has the house at 70 coming across the coil would be 50 ish.
i think i would throw some insulation up there and see if it would bump it a little. call jordan insulation for around .40 a foot they will blow in 6".it's so hot up there in the summer if you get up there you'll have a heat stroke.
if you want a 110 unit for your bedroom or something give me a holler,i have one i keep around just in case a rental goes down i can at least cool the bedroom,your welcome to use it. larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Thanks for the offer of loaning me your a/c Larry.I'll see how things go
This was posted in another forum about the phase out of R22
"HCFC-22 is also referred to as R-22 or by one of its trade names, Freon¯ 22. It is a popular refrigerant that is commonly used in a variety of refrigeration and air-conditioning equipment. Starting January 1, 2010, the production and import of HCFC-22 for newly manufactured equipment will stop in the United States. The production/import limit will be set at a level that is suitable for servicing existing equipment.
Between 2010 and 2020, HCFC-22 and HCFC-142b will be produced or imported for the exclusive purpose of servicing existing equipment. As of January 1, 2015, as part of the phaseout of all HCFCs, the sale and use of HCFC-22 will be banned except for transformation or servicing refrigeration and air-conditioning applications. EPA will not permit newly manufactured HCFC-22 to be used for charging new equipment. Starting January 1, 2020, the production and import of HCFC-22 will be banned entirely in the United States. Once this happens, only recycled/reclaimed or stockpiled quantities of HCFC-22 will be available for servicing existing equipment."
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.