I have a problem that needs a creative solution from the brain trust. If we can figure build bridges in backyards and roof systems on the floor of the house next door, this should be a piece of cake.
Our church’s sanctuary has a sloping ceiling with can lights.
Unfortunately, the cans that the electrical designer specified cannot be changed with the conventional extension pole and bulb-gripper. For most of the 60 or so lights, an electric scissor lift does just fine. Some chairs need to be moved out of the way, but that’s not to big of a deal.
Seven of the lights, however, are not as accessible. There is a platform about 10′ deep by 2′ high along the front wall. Because of the location of the lights and depth of the platform, a scissor lift with the platform extended all the way out will not reach the lights.
We have looked at a few options so far. They make one man electric man lift
but we have no easy means to get a lift weighing a half ton or greater up on the platform, let alone the question of whether the platform will support that kind of point load.
An electric articulating boom lift
would work just fine, except for the $10k plus price tag.
We’ve considered a scaffold tower
but the time to set one up is a downside.
If someone was brave enough, a combination ladder
may do the job, but I sure don’t want to be the one ascending a ladder like that to change a light bulb that is 31′ in the air!
So, are our rational options limited to the articulating lift (high cost of purchase)and the scaffold tower (lots of time to set up), or is there something out there I’m missing?
Replies
Strap a pipe or plank to the platform of the scissor lift (so it sticks out on one side) and raise it up, as close to the light as possible. Then lean an extension ladder against the pipe. You could even strap the ladder to the pipe before raising and let the lift raise it.
You would of course want to be sure that the lift is massive enough to support the ladder (and climber), and make use of any outriggers, etc, the lift may have. Some bags of sand for counterweights on the platform might give an added margin of safety. Chock the wheels.
call the architech and ask him or her - someone should do it.
We thought of a variation on that, but that still requires rental or purchase of a scissor lift. At that point the articulating boom may be more flexible (pardon the pun).
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
How many contractors are in the congregation? Maybe buy one of those lifts and rent it out most of the year!
Why not rent the lift one time, and put the LEDs in ?One shot... done.
Life is what happens when you would rather be finishing your own house.
Maybe half a dozen, it depends on how you define "contractor".
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I would take a serious look at LED light bulbs and see if they would be suitable for your situation.
You would still have to figure out how to change the bulbs, but this would almost be a one time event based on the expected life of an LED bulb.
I second that.http://trinorthlighting.com/Store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=62
LED's are an interesting thought that I had not considered.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I assume these are the lights close to the gable ? How close to the gable are they ? Maybe you could use some stand-off arms on a ladder to get it closer to the lights.
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They're about 4' out. Within the reach of a modified standoff, but how risky is one willing to get?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
4' is probably too much. Within reach for sure, but you have to lean back on the ladder and that's not recommended.
I agree with hiring a specialist and change all your bulbs (to LED's if they have sufficient lumens for your use) at the same time.
Then send the bill to the architec.
You need to fix the none working bulbs when the whole congregation is present. Have the entire congregation, inc choir, stand and raise their hands.........
Everyone knows that many hands make "light" work.
Sorry, .......an old priest I knew did this as a joke once.
A troop of Chinese acrobats? :)
I assume that you are talking about the first row of lights, 5 of which are visible in your picture just in front of the recessed area. Instead of buying an articulating boom lift that would need a large storage area, you might build a sort of soffet or mezzanine extending the "proscenium" outward a ways. Give it tapered pilasters on each side for "visual support" and decorate its face with lines from Scripture or other inspirational text.
The top surface could support a combination ladder of less scary size and be equipped with tie-downs to anchor the feet of the ladder for additional stability.
It could also be used as a mounting place for speakers that would not need to take up floor space on the platform or for spotlights, etc.
Yeah, simply installing a light bar to hold those lights might be the trick. Arrange so it can be lowered with an electric winch.Or, as someone else suggested, just pay an electrical contractor to do the job.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
I guess a lot of churches have this problem from time to time, Jon. We've been lucky so far, with a 6 year old building. Up to now, the lights that have burned out have been relatively accessible. Mine is compounded because the pews are traditional and bolted to the floor. Funny, but your seating looks exactly like the several hundred we had in our old building, before we changed that hall into a gym and built our new sanctuary. I mean identical right down to the fabric.
Our Board of Trustees is made up of 9 men, and most of us are self-employed. We have decided that this probably isn't something we want to tackle ourselves, as none of us, nor the church, can afford to get hurt. We've learned that there are lighting contractors that specialize in this work, and they bring their own lifts, ramps, stand-offs, whatever is needed.
I wish I had a name or a link for you - perhaps the electrical supply house might know of the local experts. One thing I would suggest - go ahead and bite the bullet and have all of the overhead lights changed when you do it. One time, in and out, done.
Greg
Greg,I don't remember much about those chairs, only that they came from Canada (I think).Your idea of hiring it out may be a good one. I had not thought about that.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Mounting ladders, etc., to a scissor lift violates OSHA rules, because it's ... dangerous! Your concern over the weight of the lift is also very real.
That 'combination ladder' pictured is unlike any I've ever seen, and looks like a deathtrap. Get to the top, and it'll flip over like a teeter-totter. If you have room to place that ladder ... you have room to place a conventional ladder. I own two distinct 'combination ladders,' and neither works like the one pictured.
Building scaffolding would work. Tedious, but effective.
A boom lift ought to work well ... assuming the floor can support the load. Boom lifts are also available in a towable version. You ought not have any trouble renting them - indeed, it's pretty rare for a contractor to buy one.
Lighting designers are notorious for placing lights where they are inaccessible. Churches are but the most common site of these mistakes; pools and theaters are also common challenges. I expect the problem would go away, the moment we require them to change the bulbs.
You forgot the other option: stacking haybales.
It's a green idea too!
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Perfect. Why didn't I think of that?Milkbones for you!
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
If you use one of those motorized lifts, I'd be concerned about exceeding the capacity of the floor system.
Churches with fixed seating only require a live load of 60 PSF (Going from memory) which isn't a whole lot.
That floor would probably be fine. I designed and built it, IIRC the live & dead load is 150 PSF. It is a very stout floor.Still, there's nothing like a 2k pound lift to let you know that the floor is not *quite* stout enough.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
What kind of floor system is it? 150 PSF is quite a bit.Just curious.........
The morale of an organization is not built from the bottom up; it filters from the top down. [Peter B. Kyne]
2x8 SYP #2 12" OC with spans of about 6'.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
We have a similar situation in our church. The way we change them is to crawl up in the attic, pop out the light housing, and change the bulb from behind. Works fine, it's just a little dirtier in the attic :-)
I would fashion a long stand off on a ladder and prop it against the front gable wall (if that is the location of the problem lights).Our church is similar, but with the lights positioned in the middle of the pew rows. We get a ladder wedged between the seat of one pew and the back of the pew in front and have two guys hold the ladder steady while yours truly (the lightest and "bounciest") climbs the ladder. I'm getting less bouncy as I age, so we have been recruiting for another climber....no luck yet.
Edited 4/10/2008 12:10 pm ET by bp21901
The drop ceiling of the church would make that endeavor more dangerous than the combination ladder, I think. Still, I had thought about that.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
The drop ceiling of the church would make that endeavor more dangerous than the combination ladder, I think.
Sorry - I had missed that in the photograph.
Our church has a drywalled ceiling, with actual framing to crawl around on - not the drop ceiling grid suspended by wires from the roof.
If you have a tree surgeon, steelworker, or other congregation member with experience with climging gear, they could probably attach their rope or cable to the roof and safely move around that way. In other words, suspend themselves from the structural roof rather than the (presumably non-structural) ceiling grid.
In our old church they would take an extension ladder and tie a rope to it. They would tie the rope off to something and send someone up.
I would think the smart thing is to replace the light fixtures with something practical. Lots better in the long run.
Rent the scaffold and wheels. Two men can put it together,change bulbs ,take it down in 20 minutes. Ask if anyone in the congregation has done this. Very simple job even for a couple of rookies.
mike
And, rather then LED lights, how about CFL's? Given your usage they'll
probably last forever...And, while I can't tell from your picture, can you place the scissor
lift close and then use the pole & bulb remover at a slight angle?
Edited 4/10/2008 3:45 pm ET by Brooks
You know, I've been using CFL's just about since they first became available, and I must say that I haven't seen the long life they had promised. Certainly longer than regular filament bulbs but not immortal by any means.The funny thing was that when the first couple went bad, I kind of just chalked it up to a new design or a bad batch and ignored it, but when it happened again and again, I started to write on the base of the bulb the date I installed it and where I got it from.There seems to be no correlation between price and length of life. The cheepo five-packs from HD made in China seem no better or worse than the more expensive ones from my electrical supply place.Sooooo . . . at least from my experience with CFL's I think it would be a better bet to look into the LED technology for the church situation.
I've had the same experience with CFL's -- they may or may not out last incandescents. The one thing that seems to be a factor is ventilation. Although they produce less heat than incandescents, they're very much more vulnerable to damage from it. Given that these are in cans, you're dead right that CFL's would be a mistake. Especially given that there'll be a congregation or audience in the room, a light that flickers can be even worse than one that's merely burned out.
-- J.S.
cannot be changed with the conventional extension pole and bulb-gripper.
i assume this is because the bulbs and their bases are installed perpendicular to the ceiling plane and not in a plumb position ?
why don't you make a modified bulb gripper that can grab on an angle ?
carpenter in transition
I'd go with the scaffold tower, but instead of just changing the bulbs, swap out the cans for ones that do work with the pole and gripper. Time consuming, but a long term fix.
-- J.S.
What is the ceiling? sheet rock on what centers?
Not to be to stupid but why is a extension ladder out of the question?
If it's not I'll give you the floating end plate with carpet to lay against the angle of the ceiling Idea. I'm thinking it's a wall at a angel so it can support a ladder and not cause the ceiling any damage. A wall just holds the ladder, the ladder does all the work. Why is this not the same ? other then a slight angle
Am I missing something?
Good Point. I've leaned an extension ladder against a sloped ceiling many times. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
The problem, if I understand correctly, is this: The lights over the platform can't be reached with anything reasonable that can stand on the main floor; nothing sufficiently beefy can be maneuvered onto the platform; and anything that can be maneuvered onto the platform is too iffy at that height.
Sounds like what you need is a Tallescope. This is basically a robust aluminum extension ladder, mounted straight up in the center of a rectangular rolling base with adjustable outriggers, with an aluminum and/or fiberglass bucket at the top. The ladder folds down to enable it to fit through a normal doorway for storage. In use two or three competent people can manage the thing, including getting it up onto a two foot platform. It is all human powered, no electrics or hydraulics.
You can see photos at http://www.tallescope.co.uk/. The virtue of the Tallescope for your situation is that the wheels at the four corners can be independently raised and lowered, so that you can, for example, have two "feet" on the platform and two "feet" on the main floor, thus positioning the bucket right under the lights, even if they are awkwardly close to the edge of the platform. Or, depending on the exact geometry of the situation, have all four "feet" on the platform. With the outriggers extended and everything properly locked (check twice!) it is quite solid even in a straddle configuration.
Twenty-five years ago I was a stagehand and spent a great deal of time in these things. They were a normal part of stage work in the US. Writing this message, I Googled around for them and found only a UK source for new ones. I don't know why no US source appeared. However, I did see at least one hit for Craigslist, so I guess they are out there. It sounds like you will need to find the biggest model for the heights you are dealing with.
It's possible that the same unit would work for the other lights in your sanctuary. The big ones can raise up high enough to straddle a row of seats, so if the row spacing matches the base dimension (no guarantees!), you could just cruise along without removing any seats. The adjustable height feet can compensate for any slope in the sanctuary floor.
Hope this helps
John Ewing
The solution is obvious.
Build a new church.
Just another idea...................
I went to a small college. Our auditorum had pews with a high ceiling. What the maintance people did was attach four ropes from the top of an extension ladder two on each side) and four men at the end of the ropes. One guy climbs the ladder and replaces the light
Hahahahahahahaha! I know one job that I wouldn't do on that five man crew..... Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
gotta wonder how the picked the climber, by weight or by length of employment
Barry E-Remodeler
Yes...good question! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
The amount of post mortum pledge.
reminds me of a piece on the radio 2? years ago. ("As It Happens", CBC) bout a church, an old one , in England, who now had to comply with EU safety standards to change lightbulbs way-way up. In past years, it was some brave soul with a very very high extension ladder and a much trusted assistant at bottom. Total cost, just a few pounds, and not much time spent. EU safety rules were gonna cost the church some crazy amount (900 pounds?) to erect scaffolding, etc....
Best of luck, eh.
rod
You beat me to it.
In the fire academy, we had to do a drill called a .....yup...cathedral raise. 40' extension ladder maxxed out with 4 ropes. The purpose of the drill was to build teamwork and confidence, but it has practical origins. It actually is how a sprinkler head would be "chocked" shut in the case of an accidental trip of a sprinkler head. Honestly....it's not that scary, and it sure would cost a lot less than a (fill-in-your-favorite-lift=here.)
Bing
PS It's actually a ball for the guy at the top,if ya like heights. :)
Hey, It didn't seem all that bad. They had the drill down. The auditiorium had pews so the men would wedge themselves with in the pews. It was always fun to watch. The ladder climber went up maybe 25'.
TRAMPOLINE!
I think after sevice onje day they should all line up and make a pyramid, you know like cheerleaders do!!!!!!
What 's the thought on just using a ladder?
Here's a off the shelf accessory that would do the job for you. Just use it on the other end.
View ImageFrom this site http://www.squeegees.net/lad+acc.htm
How do you propose using an extension ladder on a drop ceiling that is 29' off the ground. Maybe there are ways, but I'm to chicken to experiment.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
On that first post I made I asked? is it sheet rock, but that explains it. Thanks.
Now back to the drawing board.
after looking at your choices I think the tower scaffold would have been your best choice but the max height is 23'
the things don't really take that long to set up something that high would take about 15 minutes, provided you already have a couple tall ladders to stand on while you put it together
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I'm leaning towards the tower scaffold as well. An electric articulating boom lift would be great, but I don't think it's feasible for such low frequency use.Scaffoldmart.com has a 26' tower for ~$1600 including shipping.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I would hire out the scaffold erection.
If you own the equipment, you are subject to all of the OSHA regulations and fines. A professional scaffold company will erect a compliant scaffold system for you.
No stuff to store, either.
They do it all the time, and most likely, most church members do not.
Yes, it will be more expensive than owning your own scaffold, but the risks are somewhat lower.
If the church insists on owning the scaffolding, at least get a few members scaffold certified to ensure the proper setup, and it may help with insurance premiums... you are going to have the proper coverage in place for these endeavors, right????
Maybe the insurance underwriter won't allow the church to own their scaffolding... something to check into.
Just review the plans and specs next time :)
Look into Bil-jax's Contur line of pipe staging. A bit more pricey, but far more flexible, easier to use, and store.
I keep a 35' tower, 3 pics, safety ladders, two other Baker racks, and two Shopmates under what first looks like a workbench. A closer look shows it's a 3' high 3' x 10' tower with a pic as the work surface. In my basement.
It's a piece of cake to set up and take down. The adjustable feet - wheels, whatever - allow setting up on slopes, stairs, anything irregular. Or simply roll the tower about as needed.
My stuff cost about $4K.
Pipe scaffolding is the cat's meow. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
No kidding. As an HO, I found it compelling to own. I have no access problems at all anymore. And storage is actually a benefit.
sounds similar to Safways stuff
http://www.safway.com/Products/Systems.asp
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.. . . . . . . .
I knew with enough hunting I'd find some thing that would work for you.
But say those prayers before not after the assent.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=103320.11
Yeah...
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I think that would require prayer before, during, and after the job!
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
After much space examination(my head) I could live with your shown http://www.toptower.co.uk/fibreglass_combination_ladder.htm and a good group of sand bag ballast.
Check to see if you have any base jumpers in the church. I hear they have a high tolerance to splatting.
Inspector Gadget arms.