Hi,
I bought a house a year ago and am only now getting around to mapping out the circuits (the list in the BP has perhaps 3 out of 30 breakers correct). I’ve got more than a beginner’s knowledge of electrical work, but I can’t seem to work out this problem :
I have recessed lighting in a finished basement, and on the west side, there are two cans on one switch, which is end run. The cans are the type with the junction box to the side of the can. When I use the circuit finder, I get two hits on adjacent (vertically – 22 A & B) breakers. So I turned off those breakers, but the light stays on. Additionally, before I check those two breakers, I get strong reading on the third (14). Turning off all three or any one does nothing.
So, I thought my finder wasn’t working, thus I tried all the breakers – one by one. Nothing. The next step was to start turning off breakers one by one until it turned off. I got through 27 breakers until the light finally turned off. Additionally, it did not involve 22 B (which was the second breaker getting the reading, though that is probably because the 22’s are half-size, so they’re sitting on the same tab on the bus).
I understand that I’ll probably have to do “the breaker-shuffle” to figure out what circuits are powering the lights, but is there a better way?
Also, I am assuming that this is a dangerous situation – is that correct? What are the possibilities? (No, the lights aren’t brighter than they should be, they don’t burn out, and seem to be run correctly – in parallel).
Thanks for any help/advice/clarification !
Replies
The analog tracers for "ringing out" circuits are notoriously poor, and in my experience they are utterly worthless with half-sized breakers. I've almost tossed mine in the trash a few times. This could be root of your problem.
I don't see anything dangerous (yet) in what you describe. What concerns you?
do what ido for tracking down which breaker.
old junker 50A breaker, tied to a good hubbel plug.
also one of those old screw in outlets, the kind you screw into a bulb socket that converts it to a plug.
Plug in my breaker, throw the switch.
go to main panel and see what tripped. works every time.
Probably not an OSHA approved method, but it would work! :^)
Jim
>>>Probably not an OSHA
>>>Probably not an OSHA approved method,
Sure it is.... Occupational Safety & Health by Art!!!
...He's never even heard of the other one, I swear....
What?!?!
You mean buried extension cords supplying power to sheds isn't legal!
I used the green outdoor ones an everthin', man, where'd my shovel get to, I gotta' make some changes......
What about the aerial runs of Romex for overhead service? Oh no.........
:^)
Jim
Uhhhh.....
You say in your title "Lights not on single breaker".
From your description, I fail to see how you have determined the lights are not on a single breaker.
You say you went through 27 breakers to get the lights to turn off. Does this mean that you were going through the panel turning a breaker off - lights still on.
When you got the lights to turn off how many breakers were in the open (tripped) position? Just one or 27?
What happened when you turned the other 26 back on?
It is conceivable that somehow the lights are connected to 2 seperate circuits - if both breakers are on the same phase in the panel, the lights would burn normally at 120v - thus not extra bright, bulbs last as long as normal, etc.
Are you saying you cannot get the lights to turn off by only tripping one breaker?
If so, leave whatever breaker you tripped to make the lights turn off in the open position, call it breaker "X". (mark it with tape)
Turn every other breaker in the box "off". Lights should definitly be off now!
Leaving breaker "X" off. Turn the other breakers "on" one by one - do the lights come on say with breaker "Y"?
If yes, at least you now know the 2 circuits involved. (Mark breaker "Y".)
If no, throw your tester away.
EDIT: If you find a breaker "X and Y" situation, disconnect the black wires from those two breakers and check for continuity between the two disconnected black wires - there should be none, if continuity exists those two circuits are your problem. Start opening boxes which are now dead........pay especially close attention to ganged switch boxes which sometimes contain more than one circuit, an errant wire nut which brings the two circuits together in one of these switch boxes will probably be the culprit.
Good luck,
Jim
Yeah, it's not clear whether you've isolated a problem of two cricuits being crossed or not.
First off, as the others have said, the circuit finder gizmos are sometimes useful but can give false readings in many cases, especially in a crowded breaker panel.
Now, if you were to start with all the breakers off, and leave that 27th one off, would turning on one of the others cause the light to come on? If so, then you have two (or maybe more) circuits crossed, and it is potentially a (mildly) dangerous situation.
You should first attempt to map out everything (as you are apparently doing) and see if there are any other anomalies. When you find crossed circuits, where more than one breaker turns on the circuit, you should leave all but one breaker of that group off for now, just to minimize any hazard.
Then you need to figure out where the circuit is crossed. How easy this is to do is highly variable, depending on the age of the house, whether many of the wires run in unfinished areas (like a crawl space or unfinished basement), and how much homeowner hacking there may have been in the past.
By the way, how old is this house, and how much has it been modified/remodeled/hacked over the years?
Hi and thanks for the replies!
Sorry that it was unclear. I thought that "So, I thought my finder wasn't working, thus I tried all the breakers - one by one. Nothing." would indicate that the lights couldn't possibly be on only one breaker. Anyway :
The lights only went off when I had the "first" 27 breakers open all at the same time. (Too bad I didn't think of only turning one back on at a time to find the other(s) when I had the occasion.)
Like quoted above, previous to turning off the 27 breakers at the same time, I toggled every single breaker individually. I even tried combinations of the breakers that the finder didn't "like," but to no avail. I know that the finders can be finicky, but they generally get me near to where I want to be. I don't rely on them as the solution.
Sounds like I'll have to go through the other breaker to find out where the problem is. (Though shorting the circuits would be fun, too...) I'll give it a go to see what that yields - thanks for helping me think it out! I'll let you know if there is anything else odd.
Otherwise, would I be correct in assuming that if the lights are on more than one breaker, then - for example - if I turned off only one of those breakers to work on a circuit, I could still risk a shock if someone were to turn on the lights? Besides that, are there any others risks? (Although generally I find that the greatest risks when there is homeowner work is that they don't pay any attention to making good connections - just put the wires in the wire nut an' twist!)
As for the house, it's a 1920's bungalow that has had too many home-owner improvements done to it. The panel is not very neat (wires pretty messy inside - though not dangerous, just obviously not well done; the plywood back does not extend above the box, so the wires coming into the box are not neat, etc). Some of the work was done by contractors - though probably not overly competent ones, but other things were clearly done by the homeowner. The basement is completely finished, however, so there are no visible wires.
Thanks again for all your help.
Additional Risk
If a circuit is fed by two breakers, you can get the total of both breakers amperages before they trip causing a potentially serious overload. If, for instance, both breakers are 20 amp breakers, you likely will not trip either breaker until both exceed 20 amps for a total of 40 amps for the circuit.
>>>Otherwise, would I be
>>>Otherwise, would I be correct in assuming that if the lights are on more than one breaker, then - for example - if I turned off only one of those breakers to work on a circuit, I could still risk a shock if someone were to turn on the lights? Besides that, are there any others risks? (Although generally I find that the greatest risks when there is homeowner work is that they don't pay any attention to making good connections - just put the wires in the wire nut an' twist!)
Just to be safe, get one of those non-contact voltage detectors ("Volt Tick") and stick inside the light socket or near one of the hot conductors once the first breaker is off. These testers used to be a bit pricey, but I see that they've come way down in price. They're indispensible IMO.
With a 1920s house it was probably originally 120V-only K&T with fuses on both legs. When a sparky wanted to wire a new light he'd just find two individual wires that were opposite sides of the line and put the fixture between -- no real concept of individual circuits.
When these were upgraded to 240V, and again when breaker panels were installed, lots of fudging occurred to get things to keep working. So there's no telling how an individual "circuit" is wired. Unless yoiu KNOW that the circuit is new romex all the way back to the panel, you should assume that it's part of some Frankencircuit.
Yeah, I've got a hot stick. It would still be a problem if the light were toggled while I was working, though, if it were coming through on the neutral - right?
Certainly, especially if it were wired as a switch leg (although you're supposed to put black tape on the neutral to indicate that it can heat up).
Tell everyone in the house to leave switches alone, or put tape over them just to be safe (the switch that is.... oh, what the heck, tape up the people too......)
I'd tape up the cat too.
Just because.
I'd tape up the cat too
ah had a fair amount of tape on the seat of my old cat, but most of the other parts wuz wired up wit 'balun ware' vs. taped up.
sold ole 'D2' way back when his brother got into the movies - ya prolly know dat faymus brudder, r2d2?
I call my cat by this more elequint sobriquet -- - "you sob d2, you magneto got condensation in you again , aint you, you %$#&&%# " - an then sold dat cat during the warm summer when it werent sheddin'!..
Change the seat to a milk crate. Dont need to tape it up, and yer butt don't get wet if you use it after a rain.
>>>I call my cat by this more
>>>I call my cat by this more elequint sobriquet -- - "you sob d2, you magneto got condensation in you again
OMG... Art... you off your meds agin?
;-0
LOLOL.....