I just gave a price for rebuilding two brick chimneys on a slate roof.
Following are the requirements sent to me by the Contractor.
Any of these standard when you sub out work?
I just gave a price for rebuilding two brick chimneys on a slate roof.
Following are the requirements sent to me by the Contractor.
Any of these standard when you sub out work?
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Replies
I have not had anything like that directed towards me.
But, when I work under Grant's contract, I still have to answer to both him, and whomever he is contracting to.
We speak with customers all the time, I get work directed my way from Grants customers, often by him ( 2 jobs as we speak) and the other stuff is either just common sense ( like swearing, and smoking inside a house) or required by law..I.E. ins.
I like the "able to invoice" LOL, damm skippy I can INVOICE..why else would I work?
Looks like that company just wants to weed out the riff raff, and run a fairly tight ship..I don't think it is unreasonable.
I've never had a GC cook up a list like that for me.
I'm not able to do a job without a little swearing!
Wait, was that JUST For YOU? HAHAHAHA...they musta had a warning..(G)
No, really..I never had even given half of that stuff anythought.
What happens if ya yelp out an OH SHID! when ya break a tool? Ya get fired?
Ha! If I'm down to hiring subs that I've got to tell this stuff to, I've got bigger problems than what's on that list<G> Someone's got it in for me, they're planting stories in the press
Whoever it is I wish they'd cut it out but when they will I can only guess.
They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy,
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me.
I can't help it if I'm lucky.
"Ha! If I'm down to hiring subs that I've got to tell this stuff to, I've got bigger problems than what's on that list<G>"That's pretty much where we want to be. Unfortunately you have to weed out the bad from the good. It all comes with time.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I guess really am lucky. I know a lot of subs that I would certainly have to give that list to, and they still wouldn't get it<G>As a sub, I have to work with a lot of other subs that I don't like being around... as a contractor, I don't, and I would only pass that list along as a joke.It always makes me feel good when a client tells me they enjoyed working with the subs. Someone's got it in for me, they're planting stories in the press
Whoever it is I wish they'd cut it out but when they will I can only guess.
They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy,
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me.
I can't help it if I'm lucky.
I see that spelling is not one of the requirements."Where Shu Bee foot coverings inside a clients home".
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Do they make you salute them each morning and wear a Stormtrooper outfit from WWII and goose step to your truck? ;)
OK, sorry that was bad but the "don't talk to the customer" thing is a little bit much and the way the items are written is like a set of rules for kids in detention.
They make sense but could be presented a bit better...Just my .02 cents of course.
Mike,
Those were my thoughts almost exactly. You may not speak!!
I think I'll tell them I'm not clean enough to work for them!
Walter
I think the list is very reasonable.
95% of the list is perfectly acceptable, and should be common sense to any professional contractor. The remainder may come across as a little heavy handed, but I wouldn't be surprised if those requests came about as a direct result of problems they've had in the past.
We've had painters telling our customers about their past relationships and jail stints. We've had an electrician tell our client that he had never installed a septic system like this before and he hopes it works (Keep in mind that this septic system is about a $28k item- not something you want to give the clients a reason to be concerned about). Live through a few instances like these and you may join them in wanting to keep a tight rein on your subs.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I'm with you 100% Jon.... for all the very reasons and examples you gave. I've no doubt this list came about from past bad experiences. It's a bit militant to see it all on paper.... but all of it does make very good business sense and none of it is particularly unreasonable.View Image
Jon,
I'd be scared too if I knew an "electrican" was installing my septic system! ;)
But I know what you mean...
Mike
No, you're right. I should have clarified.The septic guy did the install (that's all he does) but the electrician was scratching his head on the control panel. He's a great guy but can say some bone-headed things from time to time.Kinda like the employee (no longer an employee) who was working on some built-ins for a very particular client. The employee looks a little rough, but is a nice guy. He showed me some of the furniture he had built (his true passion that I was trying to tap in to) so I knew he had the skills to do the quality work.Anyways, his cell phone rang right after I was talking with the client about how good he is. He had a ringtone that was Big & Rich's "Why does everybody want to kick my a**". We both heard the ringtone going off and he went for his phone to hit mute as quickly as he could. Unfortunately, he got to the phone right after the key word and then was able to shut it down. It added the perfect moment of silence for the curse word to resonate in the family room of this client. Great, just great...
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Sounds like they've been burnt before.
If you don't know them and they don't know you it's better to have it up front rather than find out later you have violated their rules.
It's not an unreasonable list, just insulting when presented in this way.
Add 20% to original bid & press on.
Joe H
PS: How many times have you seen a sub show up with some help that makes you think "Lock my tool box"?
<Add 20% to original bid & press on.>
Double it. Nobody else can do what Slateman does anyway, so he should get a premium for being insulted (even if the list is reasonable, they need to frame it better).
=====Zippy=====
Zippy and everyone,
Thanks for the feedback all.
I guess when you see it written down like that it appears slightly heavy handed.
I often talk with a GC's client- cause they want reassurance sometimes from the one who's actually doing the work, but I know which lines not to cross too.
Around these parts folks know my skill level and honesty- so I guess I took a little offense.
Walter
Sounds like they want you to play Sargeant Shultz to their Colonel Klink.
I agree that there's nothing wrong with the requests, but how's most of it gonna be enforced?
I'd counter it with a similar list requiring the owners to stay far enough away from the site so they can't hear any cursing and to not ask your help any questions like "how 'bout painting some windows for me on the side".
View Image
http://grantlogan.net/
"he ot the placed closed down whyyy thhhattt nnooo gooodddd" - sancho
Edited 8/22/2007 7:42 pm ET by seeyou
Looks mostly reasonable, we have a sub-contractor agreement that we make new subs sign which has much of the same information in it.
Most of it's common sense. I'd take a small issue with NEVER talking to the homeowners, however I understand what they're getting at.
As for swearing, well, in a perfect world.... but it's going to happen, keep it to a min. and realize Damn It! is a little different then Fck it!
If anything, it tells me they're a professional company trying to maintain a professional work environment that protects their interest as well as the customers.
All in all, not bad.
There's the fine matter of picking your fights. There's also the matter of enforcement.
Let's face it .... the worst that can happen is that he decide not to use you anymore ... he still gets to pay for work you've done. This is a good time to review YOUR contracts and commitments with him.
Apart from the list being anally obvious, and suggesting he has an attitude problem (You're a professional contractor, like him ... not an employee or his representative in any way) ... the list suggests he's accustomed with having a bunch of eight-balls as 'subs.' Do you want to share a job with folks who need to be told how to be adults?
That was very well thought out and articulated.
Kinda whatmy gut was trying to say, but not putting it into words as you just have.
Thanks, Walter
The part about not talking to the HO sounds pretty shakey to me. What will the HO think if they ask a question and you respond with "Sorry, but I can't talk to you"?
What is the employee of the sub supposed to do if the home owner starts talking to him about the work he is doing right now: Look away and pretend he is from a different planet and doesn't understand him?Martin
What is the employee of the sub supposed to do if the home owner starts talking to him about the work he is doing right now: Look away and pretend he is from a different planet and doesn't understand him?
He's supposed to hand him a card which says: "I'm contracturally obligated to refrain from communicating with you verbally. Would you mind if I text my reply to your question on your cell?"
Edit: reminds me a business card I had in jr high: "The man who hands you this card is an air raid warden. Lie flat on your back and do exactly as he says."Now that I think of it, that could be rephrased to..."is from Homeland Security." ;-)
Edited 8/23/2007 6:15 pm ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
>> What is the employee of the sub supposed to do if the home owner starts talking to him ...
He's supposed to say, No hablo ingles.
Faced with that list, I'd ask what this means:
My response would be, 'I don't know where shu bee foot coverings are inside a clients home; maybe you should ask the client, since I'm not allowed to speak to them'.
Hey, you! Where shu bee foot coverings? I left them over there. Who moved my cheese?
walter,
I don't do any work as a subcontracter---------- however-- i think i would be pretty seriously offended if somebody handed me a list like that.
ME?-personally?------ I would politely decline the work.
the assumption is----- that the GC feels you are a dirtbag who he needs to spell these things out for---which tells you who he is used to dealing with----------------
so--not likeing the GC's attitude-- i would find life too short to deal with him and decline the work
Best wishes, Stephen
Stephen,
I know the list is given to all his subs-they're not singling me out,but it's still a little bit offensive.
Since I'm probably one of only a couple of guys around to do a perfect job for them on this project I'd have thought that they would be more responsive.
This is my first job for them- and it may not come to pass, for a totally different reason than what you've put forth.
Walter
I completely understand where you guys that are a bit annoyed by the GC's demands are coming from. Maybe it's cause I've experienced some of the things that this GC likely has or maybe because I'm a paper-pushing jerk (or both) but I think the message the GC is trying to communicate is just getting lost in translation.
When I walk in a store that has a "No shirts, No shoes, No service" sign, I'm not offended. Why? Because I never have a problem showing the general public enough decency to clothe myself properly so they don't lose their lunch. I realize that the store manager may have a problem with some and that's how he's dealing with it. It doesn't really affect me so I don't let it worry me.
I suspect this GC is just wanting to have a written policy, so when the helper of sub X launches on a four letter word tirade, the GC can deal with the complaints by pointing to the written policy the sub had already agreed upon and telling him "you know better, this will not be allowed".
Maybe the GC thinks that by sending a memo that he doesn't have to show up on the job and manage like a competent GC does. There could be many other good reasons why not to work for him. But I can see it going both ways.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,
I also can see both sides of this issue- having worked on larger projects with less than savory subs at times.
Since only the chimneys are being rebuilt and reflashed into the roof I don't assume any of the GC's people will be around.
Seems silly then when the HO asks me how things are going that I should have to tell them to call the GC.
I would think that would set off more warning signs to the Ho than if I just answered them.
Walter
I have no basis for this opinion, so I could very likely be completely wrong.But I bet this GC does not want you to act like a mute when the HO directly addresses you, I think he justs wants to avoid the kind of situation that could get him in to trouble.As I said, that's no more than just my opinion, maybe the GC really does not want you to breathe a word to the clients even if it's a cordial "good afternoon".Walter, your probably the only guy who has met this GC. What do you think he means? Is he good intentioned and maybe not quite as careful as he should be when typing up this list (IE, "please be respectful in your communications to the client if they are necessary" instead of "don't talk to them")? Or is he a control-freak?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon, the fact that you are having to explain the nuances of what the GC's intentions probably were is proof enough to me of why written rules like this exist. Common sense seems to be a rare commodity these days.
On one hand the GC feels he needs to write this stuff down because he's probably already been burned once or twice by some loose-lipped idiot.
On the other hand, he's got smart-azzed morons who take the rules at face value and think that it means they can't reply back when a homeowner says "good morning" or something.
LOL... what's a guy to do? Keep fightin the good fight Jon... you've got your head around this the right way. Amazing how far a little common sense will go. If that set of rules is "offensive" then we've got some thin-skinned dudes around here. It's just business, after all.View Image
It's a bit harshly worded, esp the bit about not talking to the customers. But we have a builder in our neighborhood who posts a list of requirements similar to this on a three foot by four foot sign at the entrance to every construction site where you can see it from the road. I had to drive past it every day on my way to work at one job and it gave me the heeby jeebys every time.
Terry Wardell has a really good sign that has a similar list posted on his job sites very discretely that gets the point across with levity and humor given the addition of the "no fighting or dancing" rule. If done right a policy like this can let people know that you are serious about running a clean ship. Done hamfisted like the letter you received it just makes you look like a control freak.
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
seems like they're afraid their salesmanship might come around and bite them in the butt...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
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Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Thanks to everyone for their input.
When you work predominately for the HO and not under a GC you use your own discresion (sp) about how you deal with them.
I can see when a GC has told them a scenario and a price( mine plus their markup) that they don't want the kitty released from the burlap -so they potentially look like they've overcharged.
I've worked for lots of GC's here and had never been e-mailed a list such as this- hence my questions. Sorry if I've offended anyone in the process.
Walter
those are the same things we require.. we just don't write it down
and we don't get so picky about the rest
( ShuBees, smoking, TALKING to clients ? )