In the current thread about the getting working with the builder/designer and getting a second bid I have the feeling that the builder is not listening to the client.
I maybe be completely off. But first he said that he was clear that he might want to get other bids or even act as the GC. But apparently the builder went ahead with the design without getting an understand of responsibility or commitment.
Then he posted that the first pass elevation design was completly off.
As I said I could be completely off, just got a feeling about it.
In the Bob Vila forum someone asked this.
“The builder that we were interviewing just told me that people do not put cabinets to the ceiling when the ceiling is 10′. he said leave 2 ft.
Well, what I wanted to do is have 42″ cabinets but I wanted to put another lighted glass front cabinet on top of that to go to the ceiling (all the way around the kitchen) . The kitchen is small but pretty open. Is there any reason why cabinets should not go up to the top? I realize that I will need a ladder to get up there, but since we are downsizing so much I wanted that to be like a china closet above the cabinets. Help…. he is saying people just don’t do that.”
I responded that the open space above the cabinets is wasted space and dirty (I know I have had paint the walls above a couple). And that she understood the downsides (cost and access). But that I did not see any reason not to put cabinets there if that was what she wanted. And also suggested that she talk to some high end kitchen showrooms and see what they would say about it.
She responded that she was looking for a new builder because he was not willing to do what she wanted.
Not that I am saying that a builder should just automatically build whatever a client wanted. But there was nothing unsafe, unethical, cause premature failure of the structure, etc in putting in cabinets to the ceiling.
Also listening to the client does not mean that you have to do what they are asking for.
If you listen for the REASON behind their request there are other solutions. For example there might be an area that a builtin china cabinet could be used that would otherwise be wasted space.
Edited 10/21/2006 3:19 pm by BillHartmann
Replies
Successful remodeling companies live off of "listening" to the client. You won't go far in this business (or shouldn't go far) without it. And I agree that oftentimes the client should listen to the voice of experience. The happy medium between the two should make for a perfect job.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Once again, listening is a lost art. Asking questions is also a lost art. Explaining why you're asking the questions and what the answers indicate is a lost art.
However, just asking what the client wants and they basicially telling them what they really want (meaning to build a monument to yourself and an opportunity to get featured in a magazine) is unprofessional. I despise the professional in my field that think they walk on water and are allowed to talk down to clients.
Listening, asking questions, and understanding, that's the key.
Too bad you can't get people to use these keys in the everyday world..............a little more often.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
It's not hard to find examples of cabinets, even good looking cabinets, going to 10' in a small kitchen, but it is more expensive. Often contractors don't have proper allowances for cabinets and when the owner wants to change them it becomes a sticking point since the contractor doesn't want to pick up the extra cost and the client's interpretation of the contract doesn't exclude 42" tall upper cabinets.
Maybe it just wouldn't look right. An established contractor has little to gain by building a strange or odd-looking house.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
80374.3 in reply to 80374.1
It's not hard to find examples of cabinets, even good looking cabinets, going to 10' in a small kitchen, but it is more expensive. Often contractors don't have proper allowances for cabinets and when the owner wants to change them it becomes a sticking point since the contractor doesn't want to pick up the extra cost and the client's interpretation of the contract doesn't exclude 42" tall upper cabinets.
I'd say the builder is just plain lazy. He wants to build the same ole vanilla ice cream cone that he has been churning out. He know exactly what that costs and where to get the cone and the ice cream.
He can't be bothered doing the legwork to discover how much it will cost him to build a banana split or where to buy the parts.
Eric[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
There's a good chance you're right.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Listening
in general seems to be a forgotten skill in our society.
listening
is a large part of what I am often recommended for.
I
Listen
not only to what they are saying, but ask pertinent questions and observe their reactions to get to what they really want.
The biggest communications hurdle for me in remodeling is to liosten to BOTH the husband and wife. They often have divergent goals with a project. Designing and building something they BOTH enjoy and are satisfied with, even proud of, is where I get my real satisfaction in this work.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
You are right- the problem is not just with GCs and architects- it's hard to find a good listener at all these days, and it's hard to be one- society has expectations that we should all be tuned in to so many channels of communication.
One job I'm working on right now, 6 of us (architects, home owners, carpenters) have a meeting every monday morning. It usually lasts 2-3 hours, time spent going over details relevant to the next few weeks. It always feels like a huge time commitment just to agree on methods and materials, but it's almost the only way in this situation: transforming very specific architectural ideas into an engineered, liveable structure.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Bill,
You are right. Listening to the customer is a key.
In my prior profession, I got real good at it, and everyone was happy. But in the construction stuff, not always so. Still learning. One example, I did a roofing/siding window job for a friend last year and she always asks me what I think about her place. In the end, my views were not the same as hers - or those of her husband. One example, they had a big bay window they wanted out because it fogged. I pretty much automatically went for an Anderson. The replacement was constructed differently from what they had and the horizontal lines around the bay didn't match. That bothered the husband, and I didn't lilke it either. But the wife said to me (after the fact) that she also thought the inside of the window would be prefinished vinyl or whatever, like the old one, so they didn't have to paint it. I had no clue. I was looking for a bay that wasn't fogged that fit the hole. My focus was on construction and r-values. Gotta ask people what they want. Can't assume.
Fortunately, most of my work is on my own stuff, so I know what I want - usually...
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
I've worked on three projects this year with doubled-up wall cabinets to use the space above standard wall cabinets. Some folks like the look...practical or not...give 'em what they want.
The guy I work with doesn't like to listen to the customers. He sort of tells them what he's going to do, as if it's his house. Sometimes I try to interject little comments to make what he says less harsh, but I am only his helper. On one job he was so "we'll do it this way" that the lady told us to stop everything and they'd have to think about it. I had known the husband most of my life, so I called and met with them and talked things through, (the husband had even called me earlier and said he didn't know what to do because my boss wasn't listening and told them how he was going to do it and they finally agreed just to get him out of the house so to speak. I told them my position and that I'd rather they tell him directly what they wanted and then if he refused to do it, I would see what I could do.) then they met with my boss and talked it through with him and came up with a good plan. I think if I had not intervened they may have just told us to forget the whole thing and kicked us out of their house!
When I worked for a framer, several times homeowners came to me (I guess I'm just approachable or something!) and asked about the plans. Then I would go and tell the boss. (OPne time the guy said he wanted a window where there hadn't been on on the plans, so the boss agreed to puyt one in--don't know, but imagine there was an additional charge. Usually after I told the boss what the homeowner had said, the boss would then talk to the homeowner directly and agree to do whatever it was (except the time the woman decided she wanted one eyebrow dormer where we had just finished framing in two doghouse dormers (in a truss roof, IIRC). That time the boss said we could certainly do what she wanted and it would cost an additional $10,000. She decided to keep what was there. We did, however, move one window three times on that job! (and the mason tore the chimney back down to the roofline and rebuilt it to her new specifications!). Her bringing us cookies went a long way towards us viewing her with a little more patience!
I agree Bill. Listening is a very lucrative skill!
The builder might be listening but then there still has to be some form of compliance. All too often the builders don't think they need to comply.
We're currently working with a client that talked to several builders that wouldn't accomodate his wishes. He wanted someone that would provide him with a shell; foundation to the roof and the builders insisted that they wanted the whole enchilada. These builders are currently sitting around twiddling their thumbs.
We also knocked a long time framing crew out of a sub because the carpenter wouldn't listen to the superintendent and set the prehung exterior doors correctly. The superintendent was furious that he had to reset a door (late on a friday afternoon) to install some construction door knobs (locks) and when he discussed the matter with the carpenter, the carpenter got defensive!?!!! We're in a market that is currently chewing carpenters up and this guy won't even agree to set a door properly?!!!?!!!
Thank goodness for bad listeners!
blue
Our Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
"The builder might be listening but then there still has to be some form of compliance. All too often the builders don't think they need to comply."Absolutely true.But true listening is not just hearing the words. But finding out what the client really wants and why.For example on the shell you might have found that other areas that could use help on and are willing to pay for such as recommending and coordianting other subs.Or it might have been that they really did not want really want to DIY the remainder of the home. But had some a bad experience with another builder that did not listen to them and installed whatever cabinets, located receptacles, etc disreguarding the clients wants. And if they where convinced that the builder was LISTENING and FOLLOW ING then they would have gone with a turnkey job.I am not saying that any fo that was true in this case.Just wanted to make the point that true listening is not just hearing the words, but finding out what is behind them.In the past I designed control system for water distribution systems. I would often get specs that had a lot of "When this happens do so and so". There would be dozens of those and the head would spin trying to follow them.But after working then and asking questions I find that what they wanted was series of different size pumps that could be run in different combinations depending on the water demands.
I think that not only is listening a forgotten skill but so is asking questions and getting to know your client. In my experience I try to get my clients to understand that anything that they say during our meeitngs is important in the design process, even they don't think it is. The project should be designed around the client. What's wrong with where they live now, what do their present spaces lack, how do they have to compromise now to get by with what they think they would prefer to have or how they would prefer to use spaces in their home? What room is their favorite now? How do they relax now, how do they entertain now? Answere to these kind of questions in the early stages of project design tend to better tailor the project to reflect the client. The goal should be to design an home environment reflective of the client's vision.
There is also some delicate diplomatic guidance by the architect or builder is educating the client and in the design process. I tend to explain how things work, what I have seen in the past and what clients have requested, what clients have commented, and what code permits you to do. Just remember to document the client's decisions as these things may come full circle and you may wind up installing what you suggested in the first place after they see how akward some things may be. Hey, I've had some clients suggest some really goofey things which wound up working fine. I've also see the opposite and rarely do I tell them, see I told you so. They do have feelings.
As a homeowner currently building a house, I run into this quite a bit. I tell my project manager (who happens to be my father-in-law) that after two years' research and reading, I've settled on having something done a certain way, and all I get is flak.
I&WS on the sidewalls: "You don't need that. It's expensive, and no one does it anyway."
Step flashing on the roof: "No one does that anymore - they just have the Mexicans (a majority of the roofing crews around here are) put long runs of flashing metal along the sidewalls.
Waterproofing the full-foundation covered porch so that moisture doesn't get into our basement: "You don't need that. Pour concrete and caulk it real good where it meets the house, and it'll never leak."
PEX water supply lines: "No one uses that around here." "The plumber said the crimpers cost $800 [!]"
I even got flak for flashing the windows with Vycor.
And so on. My reaction, of course, is - I don't give a rat's azz what "everybody else" does. Of course production/tract-house builders don't do stuff like that, as it takes a lot of time and a bit of money, and it's a corner they can cut that most folks won't notice or care about.
Unfortunately I've encountered the same attitude with some of the other trades I've been dealing with - the attitude that because I've not been building houses for thirty-squirty years, I don't know how I want my own home built.
I can understand if a builder is hesitant to try new and untried methods & materials if they have to stand behind them, but it seems like there's an awful lot of sheer inertia and pig-headedness afield. And I just don't understand it. You'd thinik people would understand that learning and doing things they don't usually do is a way to broaden one's marketability and profitability.
*sigh*
Jason
Jason, you should fire your GC
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
I was thinking that too!