Looking to open our house up a bit by removing a wall that separates the family room and dining room. Please let me know what I’m up against and what some options might be.
Pics 1 & 2 show the interior wall to be removed
Pic 3, 4 & 5 show the vertical support and roof framing
Pic 6 was taken looking at the opposite end of the house and shows the only other vertical support
I can provide additional pictures if that would help.
Thanks
Ryan
<!—-><!—-><!—->
** Trying to figure out why my pics wont post **
Edited 2/15/2009 10:46 pm ET by ThinKerf
Replies
How many floors? Whats the wall holding up? Basically your options would be a beam either exposed (below the ceiling) or installed above the ceiling on the same plane as the joists.
The latter is a little more tricky as you must cut all the joists and fit the beam in place.
Finally you will have to establish a load path on the two bearing points (either end of the beam) down to the foundation.
Its not too hard but i'd need more info to give you a definitive answer.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Thanks for the reply.
Single story house and the pics show the rest. I cna't figure out why my photos wont upload but hopefully soon I can get them posted.
Some will argue this point but the way I see it. The wall is bearing in the sense that the joists break above it, but the load on the joists is lateral. The joists are trying to keep the roof from spreading and pulling the wall out.
You may want to have an engineer check it out. You may be able to (basically) make your rafters and joists into site built trusses. I mean adding a post to "hang" the joists from the ridge.
You would really need to consult an engineer for that but we've done it temporarily on a house that we needed to remove all the walls from.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Pics are up.
Does that wall run parallel to the ceiling joists or do the ceiling joists rest on it? If the wall is parallel to the ceiling joists, you might be able to just get rid of it with no further thought.
Yes, the wall runs parallel with the joists. I just need to make sure that the vertical beam can go unsupported, or maybe I can tie it into one of the crossbeams.
due to photofile size I only looked at three opf these, but in the third I saw enough.In the attic put more collar ties in so that there is one on every rafter instead off every other one. Be sure they are all well fastened and not just tacked with a couple 8d nailsFind out what the supports under the strongbacks are supported on. Maybe add a couple more of them - these are the slightly angled stubs.9/10 times that vertical support under the ridge board is only there as a temporary to hold it straight while the framing gets stitched together and could then be pulled out, but is just as easily left behind
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
If adding more collar ties should I just do it in the area were I'm removing the wall, say an additional 3 collar ties, or should I be doing this along the entire length?
I would do the whole thing.not the typical reasoning and not time to detail why right now.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
See attached quick sketch designed to help you understand what walls are load bearing in a simple single story stick framed gable style roof house.
Another thing that I'm not sure was mentioned, is that if there is a basement or crawl space and you go under the house, you will see support beams and/or piers that support any load bearing walls all the way down to the concrete footers.
Edited 2/16/2009 8:59 am ET by Matt
Small modification to pci...
Using your template I've shown a rough view of my interior walls. I've listed all walls perpendicular to the ceiling joists as load bearing but that's just a guess without going under the house. Picture 7 just shows the termination of the vertical support.
View Image
Edited 2/16/2009 12:15 pm ET by ThinKerf
Which walls or walls are discussing removing. Can you show that in your drawing?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Sorry about that. In the drawing above it's the green wall, which is picture 1 & 2 in the OP.
what are teh legs under those strongbacks supported on?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The strongbacks seem to tie in/be supported on the top of the wall.
That could be a problem. You really do need somebody on site to investigate all the related and various items surronding this.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It looks like the only thing bearing on this wall is the legs supporting the strongback. Is there any way to support the strongback without transfering the weight to the concrete piers? I was just hoping I could transfer the weight to the outside wall and beef up the rafters and joists.
View Image
Thanks for everyone's input.
Edited 2/16/2009 6:44 pm ET by ThinKerf
As Piffin said, that vertical 2x4 under the ridge board is almost certainly just a temporary support that was used during construction and not removed after the framing was complete. The diagional pieces are a bit of a question though.
What's the span of the roof, (how wide is the house), are those 2x6 rafters? What's the rafter spacing, and what's your design load where you live? (ie: 15lbs dead load, 40 lbs live load?)Steve
Edited 2/17/2009 6:26 am by mmoogie
It looked like 2x4 rafters 24" OC to me
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
embedding a photo that large is an unkind thing to do.Yes there are ways to deal with that point load but you really need somebody on site to analyse all the many and various elements and possibilities.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
So would a good GC onsite be helpful or will they also defer to a structural engineer?
Personally I would defer to an engineer on this one. I can see a lot of possibilities.
Most involving a beam spanning several or more joists laid above the joists... but an engineer will be able to calculate it all , something I can't do and wouldn't risk, let the licensed pro handle it.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Engineer best but even a darn good well experienced framing carp can do.there are just so many ways this COLD be done that trying to give you the best from here is just not wise.And experience has shown that when we try to do this with in the limits of what we see photographed, 9/10 times some key important item is left out, not on purpose but just too hard to completely demonstrate the whole situation.I have to crawl around with a tape measure and poke at a couple things here and there, then stand and scratch my chin for a while....
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Had a similar situation a couple years ago. In this case the strut on the strongback transferred roof load to the top of the wall. Using an engineering tech at my lumber supplier it was determined the strut supported a small square footage of the roof plane; the solution was to install a flush beam in the ceiling. The flush beam was 2 x microlam . Hopefully this will help
Might also be able to turn the section of strongback itself into a beamm capable of carrying the load around that wall. Would rpobably need to reach from gable end to the next supporting wall. Wouldn't be too hard to calculate the load.Steve
Can you walk me through this a little further?
I'll be curious to see what the engineer recommends. Let us know.Steve
The framer/GC took a look at things and said a 4"x12" header over piers would support the load. Apparently many people with this floorplan tear the wall out and this is how he said they have handled dozens of these. Time to bone up on a header installation.
>> The framer/GC took a look at things and said a 4"x12" header over piers would support the load. << Care to expand on that a bit? Where do the piers go?
The span is roughly 16' and I need to make sure the posts transferring the weight down the walls are over foundation piers.
gotcha...
Update
Called a Structural Engineer, who came recommended, and walked through my issues. He does this often enough and said that if the attic can be accessed easily it normally runs about $500 for the evaluation, options and a letter stating his findings. Additionally I have a friend who framed houses for about 10 yrs before becomming a GC. I spoke to him last night and he is going to stop buy and let me know what he thinks of the situation. He felt confident that he could arrive at the same conclusion and options as the SE. I'll see what he thinks and go from there.
You are in California, where they have some of the strictest structural requirements in the nation, due to the seismic issues. Recommendations that would be perfectly valid elsewhere could well fail to meet code there. Things, that may have been perfectly acceptable a year ago, may not be today.
The Building Department may well require the Engineered documents to issue you a permit. So, be sure to check with them.
I know what my inclination is; but, I am not a licensed Engineer in California, so I will keep quiet.