The framers were using staples to put on my Tyvek, and tearing completely through on so many that I asked them to switch to cap nails. So, they did. Now, I see that they have used the cap nails around every window opening, exactly where the window flange will be. It seems like a lot of lumps for a window flange to seal over. Should this be corrected?
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yes. That will make the windows not seal well..I would make sure the tyvek is wrapped INTO the opening a bit, and remove the caps at the flange area..staple there.
Unlesss your not puttin the windows in for quite a while..then wait till then.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
yup
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
I'd have them tape over all those staple tears, too. Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Dumb dumb dumb! The framers were told not to do the cap nails on the flange, and lo and behold, they put up two more walls today the exact same way. Someone must have got to them late today because there are signs they attempted to remove them--huge tears, twisted nails still stuck and just hammered over bent, etc. I was so mad I took them all out myself, the CORRECT way. I will be there many times a day from now on. These yahoos were supposed to do the window flashing, but screw that. They don't care to do a good job, so I will do it myself. I'm not compromising the long term future of my house because of the framers. Ever vigilant!
Next time you have a suggestion to make to your workers, try starting the conversation off with some baked goods.
Where's your contractor?
Best of luck on the rest of your project.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I agree with trying the nice apraoch first. If your repeted attempts to get them to do it right fail, then FIRE them. You are paying them so they should do what you ask. If they give you attitude then you are in for a lot more hedaches down the road(even after the house is built). Granted, letting them go will stall things a bit. But I have ben on jobs were we had to correct someone elses shody work and it costs everybody involved.
the best two things for button caps..
1 a nice solid punch 3/16 dia.
2 a newly sharpend flatbar
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Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Well, they are all out. There are small tears at every spot, but I tried to keep that to a minimum, and there should be caulk, window flange, and the correct flashing over the top of any tears. I decided to do the flashing myself as I no longer trust these guys to do it right.
Another Tyvek question or two--At one point where two outside walls join at 90 degrees(for a room that sticks out the back of the house), the Tyvek was not pulled out and lays behind the joint where the two walls meet. The other wall has sufficient Tyvek left out to come around the corner and be taped. When I think of all the "think like water" talk, I see water getting behind one piece and going right into the wall. What do you think? Also, on a large opening for a 2 window/door to deck combo, the Tyvek stops right at the edge and isn't folded around the opening like on the windows. Shouldn't it be done exactly like a window?
I normally don't use the stuff..I'm the tarpaper kinda guy.
As to the insid corner detail..I don't have a problem with that way..tyvek is not a real water barrier IMHO.
as to a door opening, I would wrap inside just like a window..but again..I don't use the stuff.
BUT..messing up an area for sealing a nail flange is a no-no with either material.
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Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
You are right. Tarpaper or Vycor should be used at windows, trim and other points of potential water penetration because Tyvek is not intended as a water barrier. It is there to stop the wind from blowing through the walls.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I DID ask them to use cap nails, but common sense seems to have eluded them. They install windows all the time, the windows have flanges, the flanges do NOT come with indents for round green caps--was I asking too much?
I am using the Tyvek brand of flashing material(FlexWrap or somesuch). We are siding with brick.
I am being picky I am sure, but I have one chance to do it right, and I am going to have it done right. Building these days is not cheap. Why settle for a substandard job?
"The framers were using staples to put on my Tyvek, and tearing completely through on so many that I asked them to switch to cap nails. So, they did. Now, I see that they have used the cap nails around every window opening, exactly where the window flange will be. It seems like a lot of lumps for a window flange to seal over. Should this be corrected?"
This was your original post. In this post you presented yourself as a regular joe who saw something that looked odd and was asking us builderfolk if it was wrong. Innocent enough, right?
I DID ask them to use cap nails, but common sense seems to have eluded them. They install windows all the time, the windows have flanges, the flanges do NOT come with indents for round green caps--was I asking too much?"
Now here we are a few posts later and your true colors are showing. You seem to have learned more in a half dozen posts than your framers have in their entire careers. Good for you! Don't get me wrong, you are correct in knowing that capnails have no business around window openings however I'm betting that your attitude has something to do with your framing crew's "blind following of orders" in your capnail prescription.
Personally I install Tyvek (when it's speced and not my choice) with a hammer tacker all the time and have never, not once, seen the hammer tacker damage the Tyvek. Unless your boys were swinging for the bleachers or trying to tack with a toenail swing I can't imagine how they could have been tearing the Tyvek. Ever try to rip a piece of that crap in half? I'm going to guess that they used staples and after they had half the place built you told them you wanted capnails. You wanted capnails, you got capnails. Is it possible that your boys were using staples in the beginning for exactly the same reason you don't like caps around your windows now?
Hey maybe I'm dead wrong.....but try being on the same team with the framers for awhile. No doubt, it's your money and things should be built the way you want them to be..........but as they say......you get more bees with honey...... Pulling your cat's paw out after the fellas go home and to "show 'em how it's done" is surely going to cause you more aggravation than it will ever cause the framers. In fact, I'll bet they are getting a good chuckle out of it every morning.
Infuriating huh?
No need to get fiesty with me....just trying to help.
Oooooooooh, did he get fiesty with you too? If there is this much anger spilling over this early in the game... well, there's still a lot of house to build. Mt Vesuvius might have to make room on that page of history by time this place is built.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Actually, the "fiesty" part was pre-emptive! Just getting a vibe of where this thing is headed, you know?
Come on now guys. Let me share the reason for feisty. They had only put up a single garage wall when I saw the staples. And yes, they had torn completely through, one whole row, top to bottom, and various spots elesewhere. They also used literally thousands of small staples(office stapler size) to "keep the Tyvek in place". Whether air barrier, vapor barrier, or water barrier, the material does not need to be perforated with thousands of tiny holes. Isn't that common sense as well? My request for cap nails went from builder to foreman to framer(head framer is only one who speaks English which sometimes limits communication). So far so good. Both builder and foreman go out to site that day, and neither sees cap nails at nailing flange location in the walls that were put up(about half the first floor). So, when I come out, I see them and call the builder. He says they will correct the problem and the rest will be done correctly. I come out the next day, the rest of the first floor walls are in, and every single window opening has cap nails on the window flange area. Not only that, they regressed on the detail of cutting a flap over the window opening, and cap nailed all them as well. Isn't that feisty-worthy?
I posted here, I call our local Tyvek rep("cap nails are best practice"), and spoke with Anderson--so yes, I can learn a lot in a short time. I can learn that this is not correct by any stretch. I saw the "fellas" attempt to correct their mistake on one window. It wasn't pretty. So if they get a chuckle out of what I do on the weekends or every afternoon, so be it. When my builder never hires them again, they won't chuckle so much. They seem to do a decent job with wood, but suck at the other details. I'm adaptable--if someone doesn't want to do a decent job for me, I'll do it myself.
I do very much appreciate input from experienced people. Learning how to do it right is the name of the game. I apologize if my anger at the situation seeps out in my posts.
Well, it sounds like your frustration is justified. I stand corrected. However, I'd be more upset with your GC than anyone else.
It is his responsibility to see to it that your requests are met. I was under the impression that you were GCing your own job and hired the framers, then gave them your orders directly.
As a guy who serves as both GC and framer on jobs (sometimes both at once) I would be absolutely horrified if a homeowner found it necessary to correct work that I (my subs are a direct representation of me) had already been told to remedy. That assumes that I had been given a reasonable amount of time to remedy things.
If you brought a detail like this to my attention, it would be the first thing I'd be looking for on my next site visit. The fact that both the GC and the lead framer missed this, after it being called to their attention the day before, is a red flag.
I am willing to bet on this......your GC isn't done with those framers! Bad english + poor communication = cheap labor. Seems the GC may be the one chuckling.
The problem as you report it in this post is with a lack of leadership by the foreman on the job. it doesn't sound like they have a knowledgeable crew leader. That is the builder's concern. You should be more angry at him that anyone else, but there is no need to be that way with myself or anyone else here who is trying to be of assistance to you. Even when dealing with the builder, you will get farther by being balanced and reasonable.
I recently had a problem with my lumberyard. It was about tenth in a series of errors actually and I had already mentioned the problem to the manager of the store. This time was likje the straw that broke the camel's back. It was ruining a tight scedule and costing money because somebody didn't bother to read a tiocket and they just shipped me whatever was handy - which wouldn't work.
I was so mad I could hardly talk straight so I waitied until I had my own self in control and called the owner. His sec told me he had a line of people waiting outside his door and he was late for a meeting so she gave me his voice mail. I calmly told him that we had a serious problem to discuss and that i would wait to cool off some more and write him a letter when I got home so he would be aware of things and find a way to rectify them before losing a relationship or any business.
I had barely hung up and turned around when he called me back. I repeated what the girl had said about his schedule and asked if he had time to talk since it would take awhile. He said, "If you have a problem, I have all the time you need."
So I calmly and plainly told him what I was experiencing and that I was not picking any one person to complain about but that the continuation of the same problem oft repeated indicated a sereious systemic problem that was undoubtedly affecting other of his customers too. ( I discovered later that week that this was true) I left it to him to figure out how to deal with it.
Since then, when I call, or when I walk into the yard, somebody is always anxious to make sure that I feel special, and to be specific enough to be sure there are no errors on deliveries.
I went to the top, I was calm and reasonned, and I respected him enough to let him solve the problem. Had I tried to solve it for him, I would have condemned myself to forever fixing the screwups of his minnions. That is where you have put yourself. They have the message that they don't need to do it right, since you will fix things for them. They have the message that they can't be trusted to do it right, so why try? You have interrupted the chain of authority, so how can it operate correctly in the future?
I know you want a good job, but you are only setting yopur self up for a lot more anger and frustration by trying to do it all yourself. try to reduce the anger and improve the communications.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I wasn't picking on you. I was agreeing with Sphere. Apparantly you agree with us both. But since you are taping those joints, I don't understand why you are soo upset by tears in the tyvek there.
I noticed that someone earlier suggested that if these jerks are refusing to follow your instructions, you should fire them. Since you don't follow that advice, get used to gripping about their performance, because by accepting it, you certify it. The easy solution is to say, when the tyvek job gets done right, I'll pay your bill. That will introduce them to your common sense.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
No offense, but I wouldn't get too wound up over tiny tears in your tyvek....cuz unless you're planning on glueing your siding to your house you're gonna have plenty more.
Tyvek isn't all it's cracked up to be even when installed to manufacturer's specs. I'll take felt anyday of the week. If you really want insurance around your windows, then use Grace or similar ice and water shield.
I've taken alot of siding (of all kinds) off of homes with Tyvek. ALL show signs of water penetration on the sheathing.
Also, do yourself a favor and wait until the framers are gone before you go running around on weekends showing them how to do their jobs. Not saying your framers are either competent or incompetent....can't tell from here, but YOU told them to use cap nails right? They used cap nails.........
Careful what you ask for........you just might get it!