This is kind of complicated so I hope I describe this well. My wife and I purchased a log home that had been built in the 70’s and had to be moved out of an avalanche zone in 2003. The hose is a ranch style that is 24′ wide and about 65′ long. There is a large crawl space with a center support beam runnigng the length of the house. The floor joists consist of 2x10x12s on 16″ centers running from outside wall to the center beam. The floor joists do not run out over the mud sill, but instead were nailed to 2x10s that run along a short “pony wall” that goes from the mud sill up to the logs. The outside log walls are supported by this “pony wall” and the floor joists hang off the inside of this wall. Several issues exist. First, the outer ends of the joists were end nailed to the 2x10s on the pony wall, presumably before the wall was completed, and now the joists are pulling out of nails and sagging down. I believe that can be fixed by adding a ledger for the joists to sit on? Second, in some areas, the joists are not long enough to reach the outer walls and the ends are simpling hanging in space, I believe they were cut short when the house was moved. Obviously those joists should be replaced with longer ones that reach the outer walls. Third, many of the joists have been severly notched to accomadate plumbing, some of which does’nt exist anymore, and the result is several cracked or broken joists and severe sagging of the floor in areas. Again, it seems like replacing joists is the correct thing to do. Here is where things get complicated. The previous owner installed under floor radiant heating and drilled 2″ holes within an inch of the end of each joist to allowing the pex lines to pass through. In some spots six lines run together. In addition, all of the electrical runs clothes line style under the joists. I can probably move the electrical enough to slide a sister joist up against an old one or even to replace one all together. The problem really is the pex lines. The only solution I’ve come up with is drill matching holes in the new joists and then knock out the extra between the hole and the end of the joist so a notch is formed that will slide over the bundles of pex. I know you can notch the ends of joists on the top or bottom corners but can you put a knotch in the center of the end? Is there another solution I am not seeing. This is going to be big project so I’d really like to do this right and in such a way that there is no question about the structural integrity. One last comment, we live in Alaska, the construction season is short and I work full time so I really want to avoid having to take all the pex heating down and rerun it after repairing the joists.
Thanks for listening to my ramble
Replies
A photo or two would help us all with understanding the details, as would using the enter key to make some white space and separate paragraphs, but you did fairly well with the text.
yes, your best bet is to use sisters and end notch in the middle if the butts.
Use a hydraulic jack to lift each joist where they are sagging and then add joist hangers. Where the PEX is too close for that, just extend the end notch further into the joist.
The ones that have other notching making them split and sag, or the ones that are too short will need to be sistered AND have hangers attached, so you may need some double hangers. I doubt that you will need to remove many of the existing.
It's too bad the idiot that built this didn't know how to nail joists. End nailing ain't it.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
There are some advantages to doing it the way Piffin suggests, one of which is you only need one or two jacks or Lally columns.
Here's another aproach you might want to consider, however.
After sliding in sister pieces next to any cracked joists--notched for the Pex as Piffin said, and don't nail the sisters to the old joists yet--assemble two built-up beams in place under the joists, one about a foot or so from each end. You can toe-nail them up to the bottom of the joists that are hanging the lowest; for now all they gotta do is stay there.
Now rent or buy some Lally columns, set one every 6 feet under the built-up beams, and start jacking a turn or so at a time on each jack, going in cross-rotation like you would tighten the lug nuts on a wheel.
When your floor is flat, squirt some PL premium between the cracked joists and the sister pieces and screw them together with #14x2½" in a zig-zag pattern every 12". Then lag bolt a ledger to the pony wall under the joist ends. Make sure the ledger is thick enough to give the joists a good 1½" of bearing surface.
If you misdoubt there will be more movement in this supporting structure, leave the Lally columns and beams in place and adjust things seasonally or as needed. Otherwise, remove them once the ledgers are in place.
The built-up beams don't need to be bigger than tripled 2x6s if you place a jack post about every six feet. If you don't want to use that many jacks, go up to 2x8s and space your jacks at 8 or 9 feet.
This method has the advantage of allowing you to jack up the floor more or less evenly, instead of jacking one end of one joist at a time, which, depending on how much rise you need, could start cracking things upstairs.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
this may help you in getting responses - white space is your friend - good luck -
>>"This is kind of complicated so I hope I describe this well.
My wife and I purchased a log home that had been built in the 70's and had to be moved out of an avalanche zone in 2003. The hose is a ranch style that is 24' wide and about 65' long.
There is a large crawl space with a center support beam runnigng the length of the house. The floor joists consist of 2x10x12s on 16" centers running from outside wall to the center beam. The floor joists do not run out over the mud sill, but instead were nailed to 2x10s that run along a short "pony wall" that goes from the mud sill up to the logs. The outside log walls are supported by this "pony wall" and the floor joists hang off the inside of this wall.
Several issues exist. First, the outer ends of the joists were end nailed to the 2x10s on the pony wall, presumably before the wall was completed, and now the joists are pulling out of nails and sagging down. I believe that can be fixed by adding a ledger for the joists to sit on?
Second, in some areas, the joists are not long enough to reach the outer walls and the ends are simpling hanging in space, I believe they were cut short when the house was moved. Obviously those joists should be replaced with longer ones that reach the outer walls.
Third, many of the joists have been severly notched to accomadate plumbing, some of which does'nt exist anymore, and the result is several cracked or broken joists and severe sagging of the floor in areas. Again, it seems like replacing joists is the correct thing to do.
Here is where things get complicated. The previous owner installed under floor radiant heating and drilled 2" holes within an inch of the end of each joist to allowing the pex lines to pass through. In some spots six lines run together. In addition, all of the electrical runs clothes line style under the joists. I can probably move the electrical enough to slide a sister joist up against an old one or even to replace one all together. The problem really is the pex lines. The only solution I've come up with is drill matching holes in the new joists and then knock out the extra between the hole and the end of the joist so a notch is formed that will slide over the bundles of pex. I know you can notch the ends of joists on the top or bottom corners but can you put a knotch in the center of the end? Is there another solution I am not seeing.
This is going to be big project so I'd really like to do this right and in such a way that there is no question about the structural integrity. One last comment, we live in Alaska, the construction season is short and I work full time so I really want to avoid having to take all the pex heating down and rerun it after repairing the joists."
A couple of things I need to clarification on.
Do I need to sister the joists that are too short on both sides? Creating a 6x10?
Is having the sistered joists that are too short supported by the longer 2x10 enough, or do I have to somehow tie the short joist to the ledger(in some cases they're three inches from the outside wall)?
How tall should the ledger be? Is 2x6 enough?
This is a great site, thanks again for all the input.
You only need to sister one joist same size as existing to each.not sure what you mean about the ledger size. I thought you already have a ledger. Maybe terminology is off here - any way you can get us a photo of what is there?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I took a couple of photos but I can't get them to upload...
"Sorry, an error has occurred (ID: 105-299-66535) Please try your request again."
I will try to figure out what's wrong and see if I can upload it latter.
after you select the photo and hit the upload button, you need to wait long enough to see the name of it in the attachment box, then go to the next one.i'm off to dinner and drinks nowmananna
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"the outer ends of the joists were end nailed to the 2x10s on the pony wall, presumably before the wall was completed, and now the joists are pulling out of nails and sagging down. I believe that can be fixed by adding a ledger for the joists to sit on?"is this 'pulling out of nails' something that has happened and is now stabilized or is there an unstable situation that needs addressed?"Is having the sistered joists that are too short supported by the longer 2x10 enough, or do I have to somehow tie the short joist to the ledger(in some cases they're three inches from the outside wall)?"if I understand the situation correctly, I don't see why it would be necessary to attach the original joist to the new ledger - the sistered piece will serve - "there's enough for everyone"
Thanks everyone for the replies.
I wish I could get the photos to upload.
There isn't actually anything under the outer ends of the floor joists, they're just nailed to what we might call the rim joist, fom the outside in. In this case the rim joist on the inside of the mudsill so the joists are only held inplace by nails, which are pulling lose allowing the end of the joist to slip down the face of the rim joist.
In some cases the joist are not long enough to touch the rim joist, they're just kind of hangin from the sub floor.
I will keep working on the photo probem.
you may be having size issues with the photos - there's a limit to how large a photo may be attached - your photo program probably has a function to reduce resolution and size - "there's enough for everyone"
Let's see if this works...
Let me try .
Life is Good
Dude!
It looks to me as though there used to be joist hangers there. No - they were squash blocks, you still have some in one photo showing. Something must have been butchered when the house got moved. That would explain some of the neds pulling away too.
Jacking up to snug that 1/4" and adding joist hangers with toenails will take care of most of this.but where that big old notch is scalloped out - since other joists intersect that one, it is effectively a beam, and should probably be tripled or even replaced with a double LVL. Would need to have all the particulars of load and span to determine which.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!