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Discussion Forum

LOOKING FOR A BETTER WINDOW

acme2640 | Posted in General Discussion on March 2, 2004 04:54am

I’m a builder in upstate NY and have been using primarily Hurd windows but I’m not totally satisfied with their double hungs. Does anyone have suggestions for a comprably priced all wood window? Has anyone used Bonneville brand? Any opinions about Kolbe and Kolbe or Pozzi windows?
Just looking for possible alternatives.

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  1. Lateapex911 | Mar 02, 2004 05:39am | #1

    From what I've seen, Marvin, Pozzi, and Kolbe & Kolbe are the Audi, BMW, and Mercedes of the market.

    Kolbe seems pretty friendly and able to do custom without raping you. That said, I haven't actually used Kolbe, so I might be all wet there! Looked good at the show though, and they will prefinish their wood and warranty it. I am strongly considering them for the next house I build.

    The other consideration I have is how well the different types of windows in their line work with each other from a design standpoint. Double hungs and casemants, or double hungs and french doors, and so on.  I think that is critical.

    Just MHO, for sure!

    Jake Gulick

    [email protected]

    CarriageHouse Design

    Black Rock, CT

    1. draket | Apr 07, 2004 06:24pm | #9

      Jake,

      Before you rush out and purchase Kolbe & Kolbe's for the next house you build, you might want to consider this:

      I  purchased and installed the Kolbe & Kolbe Ultra Clad Series (wood interior) windows and doors. They now have to be removed and replaced with another brand. They are defective, self destructing, and leaked since day one. Some of the units were custom sized therefore were not clad but had the K-Kron finish. All of these K-Kron units showed signs of splitting, separating, and peeling just months after installation. Some of these units were replaced by Kolbe & Kolbe only to show the same deterioration months later. The French door's thresholds also leak into the home. These windows and doors were repeatedly tested by contractors, expert witnesses, and a team from Kolbe & Kolbe as well. They were repeatedly and unsuccessfully serviced by Kolbe technicians. There is no questioning there poor sill design, if they are defective, or as to whether or not they leak, just the big question of how is a product like this able to reach the marketplace? We also have a small guest cottage where we installed another brand window which was cheaper. These windows have not caused any problems and are still working fine. We did not use this other brand of windows on the main house because they did not have the look we want. I am now researching other window manufactures for the replacements. I am leaning toward Marvin but still looking at others. Kolbe may warranty their product but it's been about three years since these windows and doors were installed and Kolbe still has yet to resolve this problem. They have caused me nothing but constant burden and enormous legal fees. Yes they look great, but I would have to disagree with the Mercedes analogy, I would say Fiat is more fitting.  Kolbe & Kolbe does have a variety of products lines, but I beleive the Ultra series is their newest and most popular line. My opinion is that a company is only as good as their latest product. If you have questions regarding the specifics of these defects, poor design, or leaking issues, feel free to ask.

      Regards,

      Fighter

      Leakywindows.com

      1. HeavyDuty | Apr 07, 2004 09:44pm | #10

        Yes they look great, but I would have to disagree with the Mercedes analogy

        In LATEAPEX911 post, I think he meant the newer Mercedes is analogous to the Kolbe & Kolbe you described. They don't make Mercedes like they used to. 

      2. NPitz | Apr 08, 2004 12:36am | #15

        You are entitled to your opinion, and I'm sure that like any manufacturer Kolbe may occasionally make a lemon. But I went to your web site and I don't see anything other than a picture showing water coming underneath a door. My suggestion is that if you want people to take you seriously, try showing some decent pictures and some supporting information.

        Now don't get all crazy, I don't really want to argue with you about this.

        Edited 4/7/2004 5:38 pm ET by Nick Pitz

        1. draket | Apr 08, 2004 02:20am | #17

          Nick,

          Don't worry, I won't get crazy on you. I can post dozens of pictures of leaking windows and doors but that won't help or convince anyone of the reason why they are actually leaking. It's not a matter of a company producing an occasional lemon, or my opinion. It is a matter of fact. There are nearly 50 Kolbe & Kolbe units installed in this home. The installation methods exceeded  the manufactures installation instructions. These windows and doors have been tested (documented isolation tests) by contractors, attorneys, expert construction witnesses, as well as Kolbe and their team of experts, insurance people, and lawyers. The windows leaked when they were new, they leaked when they were tested, and they continue to leak 3 years later, even after many months of unsuccessful field fixes performed by Kolbe & Kolbe service technicians. Not just one or two, they all suffer from the same defects. This just scratches the surface, there are many other problems in addition to the leaks that are just as detrimental. The Leakywindows web site has extensive information to support all of these facts but temporarily is not accessible to the general public because we are heading towards trial and we could  possibly be entering a time of negotiations on a possible settlement. The site is not there just to convince you or anyone else that these windows are defective and leak, rather to help people who have purchased these products understand what has been discovered (Kolbe will never do that), and possibly help them make the best decision in getting there situation resolved. And of course, to let Kolbe know that I'm not going away. I have lived with this hell for three years now while this home sits there unfinished. I have put more time and money into this battle than some spend on an entire home. I am probably more knowledgeable of the problems associated with these products than anyone outside of the company itself, but you won't get this information from Kolbe or it's distributors. They have and will continue to try and sweep this under the carpet. These products have been proven to be defective, self destructing, and leak. I have enough information and facts on this to bore you to death. If you are interested in these facts, or just a summery, let me know and I will be happy to send you more information.

          Best regards & intentions,

          Fighter AKA Gordon

          1. NPitz | Apr 08, 2004 02:24am | #18

            Fair enough. I wish you luck resolving your problems. All I can say is that I've never experienced those problems with K&K products, including their Ultra series. When your case is finished and you can post the info you have on your site, I'll take a look.

          2. billyg | Apr 10, 2004 07:27pm | #21

            Fighter,

            I have seen your posts all over the internet for more than a year, but I have never seen any facts or pictures on your website.  Perhaps you are a disgruntled ex-employee.  No one should take you seriously until you come up with some credible info.

            At lest post some photos.

            You say you are in litigation?  Where (what court) did you file your suit, and when?  It should be public information.

            Billy

            Edited 4/10/2004 12:29 pm ET by Billy

          3. draket | Apr 10, 2004 10:32pm | #23

            Billy,

            I don't find it that important to convince people who might doubt my intentions, however I feel it is extremely important to help prevent other consumers from going through what we have in regards to  Kolbe & Kolbe. My goal is to provide other possible victims with some information on how to better resolve their situation (we have a lot mileage concerning this case), and  at the same time, possibly learn from others with similar circumstances.  If you have read my posts for over a year like you say, then you would understand why the Leakywindows web site is currently not  available. If you are a consumer of these products, or if you are contemplating purchasing them, I may be able to offer you information that could help you, but I'm not here to argue with you.

            You say this should all be public information. Don't you think it should be the manufacturer of a defective product providing the information to the public rather than it be the responsibility of the victim? If you feel like the information regarding any litigation should be public, I'm not certain but I believe it all is, you just have to look it up. You can start here:

            Superior Court of the State of California for the County of Santa Clara.

            I believe this conversation adds nothing to this forum so if you have any more comments or questions please feel free to email me directly at [email protected]

            Regards,

            Fighter aka Gordon

          4. sphaugh | Apr 10, 2004 09:17pm | #22

            curious: how does the water get under the sill of that door? if it penetrates the sill assembly somehow, why doesn't your Flashing get it back out?

          5. draket | Apr 10, 2004 11:24pm | #24

            SPHAUGH,

            Below is what is described and advertised for the Kolbe & Kolbe sills. You will find this in their brochures as well as on their web site.

            Classique inswing patio doors include bronze-anodized aluminum Waterguard TM exterior sill as standard. These sills self-drain, to prevent water seepage into the home.

            There were nine pairs of French doors installed. They leaked.  A Kolbe & Kolbe service technician tested these for leaks. The waterguard sill is designed to catch any water before it can drive or weep under the doors. It is then designed to channel the water through the inside of the sill to the front and drain through the weepholes to the outside. This sill should act like a reservoir if the weep-holes are temporarily plugged up. In order to test them, the technician plugged the weepholes and added water to the thresholds/sills by removing the inspection plate on top. They should hold the water. Every unit leaked and would not hold water. Several field fixes by the technician  were attempted and the sills continue to leak. On a solid wood threshold or others types, some may make it a  practice to install a safety pan under the threshold in case it fails, but with the sales pitch on the "Waterguard" and how it prevents "water seepage into the home", only standard flashing methods such as those described in the Kolbe installation instructions were used. Since these sills which should act like a reservoir are made with I believe 5 separate parts pressed together, they left a lot of room for failure, especially because the weep holes on the front are higher than the bottom of the sill which means there will always be standing water inside the sill. Had we then known they were a poor design and defective we would have certainly installed pans underneath them.

            Regards

          6. gdavis62 | Apr 11, 2004 12:05am | #25

            Are your K&Ks leaking when you "test" them with water?

            Do they leak when it rains?  Every window and door?  Every time it rains?

            Was pan flashing installed under every unit?  For an example of pan flashing, go to the website for a product called Jamsillguard.

            Have you performed your same "test" on other windows?  Installed in the same openings as the "defective" K&Ks?

            Have you tried your "test" on windows of other manufacture at your neighbors' houses?

            Is your home in an extreme weather exposure location?

            Take a look at what they did for the windows and doors on a house built on a windy beach on the Atlantic, home of nor'easters, hurricanes, and other foul wet weather.  The article appeared in FH a few years ago, something about "building for the elements."

            Have you enjoined the contractor who installed these windows and doors in your lawsuits?  If you haven't, why not?

            You seem to think this is entirely a K&K problem.  Some of us, like me, who have not experienced problems like yours with this window product line, might disagree.

            The great majority of water leak problems associated with windows and doors comes from installation, not the product's design or faulty manufacture.

            The best example of this is the continuing EIFS flap in the Carolinas, where houses sprung leaks all up and down both states.  Homeowners and builders alike went for the deep pockets of folks like Sto, Parex, and Dryvit, claiming faulty "product" for their losses.

            But why would products like that, used successfully for many years on commercial projects all over the US, and on residential and commercial projects in Europe, suddenly fail all over NC and SC?  Easy answer, I think.  The GCs and their installation subs hadn't a clue as to how to design for and build with this stuff.

            Good luck suing K&K.

          7. draket | Apr 11, 2004 03:14am | #26

            Bob,

            I guess you did'nt read some of my other posts so if this is repetitive to anyone, please escuse me. The product line I am referring to is the Ultra Series casement windows and inswing patio doors. They are a fairly new line (about 3-4 years) they were purchased shortly after they came on the market. They are occasionally exposed to heavy rains associated with strong winds which under these conditions they leaked profousely.  But they also leak with medium rains and light winds.  Though we do have some weather, I would not consider this area an extreme weather location. There is another brand of windows on the guest house with the same orientation and they do not leak.

            Besides tests performed by mother nature and a team of construction experts hired by my attornies, the tests performed were by an expert team hired by Kolbe & Kolbe, their insurance carrier, and their attornies. They performed several tests using isolation techniques. They tested for flashing and installation failure and they found no problems. They also tested the windows and doors themselves for leaks through isolation methods. Every unit tested leaked. Remember, this is Kolbe testing, not me.

             

            There were nearly 50 window and door units installed on this project. They all suffer from one problem or another which I have discussed. This is K&K's problem. They know this, but they are not going to tell you about it. You wrote:"You seem to think this is entirely a K&K problem.  Some of us, like me, who have not experienced problems like yours with this window product line, might disagree." I'm assuming then that you have purchased and installed this product so you must be familiar with it. Some of these units installed in homes may never see any exposure to wind and rain. Some only minimal, that does not mean they are not defective and would not leak. If anyone here does use this product line, it would benifit those to be opened minded and further research what problems may exist. I can understand skepticism, but before coming to a conclusion that it's just another lousy install, you might want to take a closer look. I'll give you one. This alone should be enough to attract the attention of any architect, builder, or contractor who understands the basic fudamentals of designing anything exposed to moisture. Take a closer look at the bottom sill design of the Ultra casement window and how the sash (which is exposed wood on the bottom) sits in relation to this sill. Now imagine some rain hitting that sash where water is able to get under and behind it. Better yet, do a water test and see what happens. I'm sure what is fundamentally wrong will be more than obvious to you.

            I am fully aware of the endless cases where shotty installation has caused problems with windows. I assure you, this is not one of them.

            Regards

          8. remodelerdw | Apr 11, 2004 03:43am | #27

            One of my better clients is a production homebuilder who has imho probably the nicest product in my local market.  I do the sitework for them, and they don't cut corners on stupid stuff like the jacklegs do.  I see their homes finished and they do a quality job.

            However, out in NC they screwed someone's home up pretty bad apparently, and he rightfully has taken a vendetta on them over the last couple of years similar to fighter's with K&K.  And it's justified in this guy's case, they screwed up and then tried to avoid fixing the problem.  The list was long, the litigation extensive, and the website updated frequently.

            If I bought a new production home, it would be from them.  If I was the guy in NC, I'd be posting hate-mail everywhere about them.  So there's no right answer....

            remodeler

  2. User avater
    Sphere | Mar 02, 2004 04:08pm | #2

    I have used K&K in the past and never had anything bad to say about them..they were on time , correct, easy to deal with..all in all great products and service. The HO's never squeaked back with a complaint..

    View Image

    Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

    Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations. 

  3. wivell | Mar 02, 2004 04:21pm | #3

    Ace,

    I installed K&K 7 years ago in my house and have had no problems - much cheaper than a comparable Anderson product also.

    My uncle is a builder in PA and has installed them for 15 + years with no problems.

    Scott

    1. Adrian | Mar 02, 2004 04:31pm | #4

      Depends how high end you want to go....I toured the Loewen plant a few weeks ago; exceptional product. They are the windows I'd put in my house if I could afford them.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S

  4. BowBear | Mar 02, 2004 11:55pm | #5

    I re-did my place with Loewen. Excellent product. Great after sale service.

    An ex-boat builder treading water!
    1. Caleb | Mar 03, 2004 12:14am | #6

      Let me third the recommendation for Loewen. I used their triple pane windows throughout my house and couldn't be more satisfied.

      1. woodroe | Mar 03, 2004 02:52am | #7

        Loewen are great windows. Made with Doug. fir. A bit pricey but very well engineered.

        I've had some workmanship probs. with Kolbe and Kolbe, (they did fix it though.) I don't think you can go wrong with Marvin. I'm told Marvin peo. refer to K&K as "Copy and Copy"

    2. HeavyDuty | Apr 07, 2004 09:46pm | #11

      Bob, I am in the market for some replacement windows. Who did you get to install your Loewen?

      1. BowBear | Apr 07, 2004 11:55pm | #12

        I did it myself, with instructions from their Mississauga office.

        Bob B.An ex-boat builder treading water!

        1. HeavyDuty | Apr 08, 2004 12:43am | #16

          So you bought them direct from Loewen? Who did the measurements?

          1. BowBear | Apr 08, 2004 04:29pm | #19

            I did. I've installed an number of Loewen units. Four sliding glass doors as replacements, two of which were installed in 1996 or 97, and two in 2002. Three years ago I put in an approx 5'X 4' fixed and a side casement as a pair. Then last year three casements, one double one single and two custom transom windows approx 30" by 6' - all in new construction.

            The rough openings are easy enough to prepare. The shimming and use of foam to seal the edges makes it simple enough.

            With all the advice in past breaktime threads it was easy enough to do, although some of the slides and scaffolding I used to get the big windows up to the second floor, were downright medieval looking with slides and cars, blocks and tackle and winches (it comes from my boat background) and I'm not sure I would like Piffin or some of the others to see. Still it worked.

            I've been very happy with the Loewen product and their service.

            I am chuffed that the older installations have had no problems and hope the the recent installations are the same.An ex-boat builder treading water!

          2. HeavyDuty | Apr 09, 2004 04:03am | #20

            Thanks, Bob.

  5. Hooker | Mar 03, 2004 04:20am | #8

    I have sold and installed several Marvin packages.  A couple years ago I was able to tour their plant in Warroad, Minn. and was very impressed with the quality.  Another thing to consider in the offshoot brand of Marvin called Integrity.  They offer the same quality, but limit the choices and options you can choose from.  For this they can drop the prices a tad for a still high quality window.  Marvin has my vote above others in my area (Upper Midwest) as the top window around.

    Hook

  6. xMikeSmith | Apr 07, 2004 11:57pm | #13

    Pozzi sucks..  Kolbe & Kolbe is a class act

    also don't overlook Andersen.. and if you need custom.. try Andersen's KML line

    Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

  7. NPitz | Apr 08, 2004 12:24am | #14

    I use Kolbe & Kolbe on almost all my projects and have never had a problem. I think they make an excellent product. My second choice would be Marvin.

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