Just talked to a plumber buddy down south who said he was digging with his trackhoe in a new housing development, going down to beside and just beneath the slab foundation as an entry point for piping.
Said he started seeing plastic come up with his bucket.
Ended up discovering the whole development is built on a recent landfill dump and the trash bags hadn’t even disintegrated yet. $200,000 to $250,000 price range.
Can you guess to depth of the top-fill around those homes?
Front yard is a foot.
be a squealin’ stuck pig
“Live Free,
not Die”
Replies
Years ago I had an EPA grant funded job that was historic-researching industrial land sites.
As an example: 1885 a site had a 100 acre smelting works (back when you could dump whatever you wanted). Plant consists of 50 different buildings, tanks, holding ponds, etc. Plant closes maybe 50 years later. By 60 years later, there's no sign that there had been anything there....except that it already had roads and utilities... which probably made it real attractive to developers. Now its a subdivision with God knows what in the soil.
Or example #2: Creosote plant which back in 1900 was 3 miles outside of town. Had no road access (serviced by railroad spurs stretching from a main line). Maybe 1920's the plant closes. Maybe 1930's, the railroad spurs are pulled up and the buildings demolished. 1960's (or later) and the town has grown up around the site. It is no longer "3 miles outside of town", now its right IN town. People building their houses on the site think its nothing but a farm field. They have no way of knowing that there could be any number of chemicals contaminating the soil.
And there are MANY, MANY such sites out there. Kinda scary.
jt8
The reason so many people never get anywhere in life is because when opportunity knocks, they are out in the backyard looking for four-leaf clovers. -- Walter Percy Chrysler
Ever seen the movie The Two Jakes?
"A hard head makes for a sore a$$."
Bill Graham built an outside arena here on top of an old landfill.The first year of concerts people would lay down on the grass and spark a joint-Poof.
They had install a system to let the methane escape.
Hate to think of a bunch of methane building up underneath my foundation.
Now there's a homegrown energy solution.
Ethel, run down cellar and throw the sump pump into ree-verse.
Now there's a homegrown energy solution.
Ethel, run down cellar and throw the sump pump into ree-verse.
There was a company proposing to harvest the methane from one of the local landfills. They draw it out and burn it to create electricity. Never did hear if the deal was going to go through or not, but I think there are other such facilities in the US.
Heeey, if they can do it in Mad Max, surely they can do it in IL!
jt8
The reason so many people never get anywhere in life is because when opportunity knocks, they are out in the backyard looking for four-leaf clovers. -- Walter Percy Chrysler
Edited 2/19/2005 7:00 pm ET by JohnT8
"There was a company proposing to harvest the methane from one of the local landfills. They draw it out and burn it to create electricity. Never did hear if the deal was going to go through or not, but I think there are other such facilities in the US."
I've worked on the design of a number of those landfill gas projects. In a nutshell, you stick a pipe in the ground, feed the methane to a large generator, and start pumping out electricity. It's more involved than that, of course, but that's generally how it works. Some of them are fairly small, maybe only a couple hundred kW or so, but there are some installations that generate three megawatts or more. Once you make back the equipment costs, it's not a bad deal.
Our local landfill (former) does exactly that. Capped that treasure trove with clay and whatnot and taps the methane off to a generation facility. Been running for quite a few years now. Most of the smaller towns around here (VT) have their closed landfills merely capped and vented off. The economics of scale aren't there for the recovery and reuse. Landfills are basically extinct. Would you believe our trash goes all the way to Syracuse, NY!
Are you sure it goes to Syracuse or a little town a bit further north called Rodman? There's a big DANC landfill started up there in the mid 80's and guess now they're talking about bringing in NYC garbage...
Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, SHOW NO MERCY!!!
Might very well be where you say. My information was in the way of second-hand rumors, and you know they're worth the paper they are printed on. I know that the garbage convoy goes through my little town on the way west to NY about 5 semi-trailers strong. Tarped over securely: I've never smelled its passing.
Funny thing about when I mentioned DANC, it stands for Development Authority, North Country. They master minded this one...imagine the purity of the aquifer up there and building a landfill on top of it, (but it's ok and won't hurt the water supply because they put a poly liner down 1st) Talk about developingHit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, SHOW NO MERCY!!!
There actually quite a few of these setups. They draw methane gas out of the landfill and burn it in large engines running generators. I know of two real close to me and the comany I work for has also worked with and designed ones in other states.(We supply the Cat engines and gensets and some technical advise.)
There was a city in California that ran its garbage trucks on the methane generated in the landfill. Heard about this when I was a "P.A. 641, solid waste planner" in the 70's.
They use landfill methane to generate electricity here....powers a hydroponic tomato factory which yields 100,000 pounds of tomatos per day. Sold under the H2Grow label.
They use landfill methane to generate electricity here....powers a hydroponic tomato factory which yields 100,000 pounds of tomatos per day. Sold under the H2Grow label.
100k sheeze! you sure the tomato fields aren't on a nuclear waste dump site?
jt8
Opportunity doesn't knock. You knock, opportunity answers. -- American Proverb
Methane creation in landfills is a very hot topic in New York state, where the state went through in the late 70s and shut down all the local town dumps. Many of the larger ones in this state are capped with numerous methane venting requirements (and perpetual leachate collection systems). Despite all the fooferaw about reuse of old landfills, most experts will tell you that such reuse should be strictly limited to uses that DO NOT disturb the soil -- parks, green space and other noninvasive uses are generally all that are allowed here. New York state has its share of issues with over-regulation, but in the case of old landfills, perhaps there is no such thing as over-regulation.
JohnT8
That company was Caterpillar and yes they do still sell diesel engines that have been converted to run on methane and generate electricity.. many communities use them and places Like San Diego generate as much as 15% of their electricity from methane at the dumps..
There were some deveopemt problems with spark plugs at first but that's been solved now.
Sewerage treatment plants also use methane engines to power some of their pumps. IIRC, the one here buys about 1/3 of its power from the DWP, and generates the other 2/3 internally.
-- J.S.
RFDTV had a special on months ago talking about composting and related topics. IIRC, one group was taking dairy cow crap and processing it to extract methane. I think they said the process for extracting the methane not only produced electricity, but also the processed crap was fairly odor free and could then be sold as fertilizer.
Probably the same Cat equipment involved. Both ideas seem to be good ones, even if the margin is small.
Anything which takes us one step closer to renewable resources is worth something.
jt8
"Someone's sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago." --Warren Buffett
Like Frenchy said, there are a number of landfills around the country generating electricity from the methane produced. My electrical engineering firm has worked with Caterpillar on many of those jobs; for instance, we did a landfill project in southern California a few years back that's putting out 4 megawatts of power. Some landfills don't make enough methane for it to be practical to set up an expensive generator system, so they simply flare off what methane they do have just to get rid of it. I personally haven't run across any wastewater treatment plants generating power, although I know they're out there. There are a few farms around here generating power from the methane, but they are on a smaller scale; I believe for the most part they generate enough power to run a lot of their own equipment but not enough to sell it back to the utility.On sort of a side note - I do a lot of design work on wastewater treatment plants, and I'm seeing more and more often where new (and expensive) housing developments are butted right up against the treatment plant property. I wonder if the new homeowners really know what's in those nice ponds they can see from their back deck. :-)
"That company was Caterpillar and yes they do still sell diesel engines that have been converted to run on methane and generate electricity.. many communities use them and places Like San Diego generate as much as 15% of their electricity from methane at the dumps..
There were some deveopemt problems with spark plugs at first but that's been solved now."
I'm hoping that was before somebody realized diesles don't got spark plugs?
:)
Ever seen the movie The Two Jakes?
Was that the movie where they had oil/methane or some such shooting up in the toilets? I believe the Erin Brockovitch movie was based on a real event.
Also, there was a town in MO and one in TX that got bought by the EPA. They bought the WHOLE towns due to toxic stuff.
And we had a town about 20 miles away that had a big lawsuit stemming from a coal gasification plant that had dumped various chemicals which resulted (100 years later?) in kids getting rare neuro diseases.
The ones we know about are just the tip of the iceburg. If you are really paranoid about where your family is living, you could take a gander at the old Sanborn Fire Insurance maps (on microfilm at various libraries). They were created (and go back into the late 1800's) by the fire insurance companies as they created policies to cover various businesses.
But just cuz you don't see anything on your property doesn't mean there was never anything dumped there. Don't know how much ground testing costs, but that is probably the only peace of mind you can buy.
jt8
The reason so many people never get anywhere in life is because when opportunity knocks, they are out in the backyard looking for four-leaf clovers. -- Walter Percy Chrysler
You mentioned the town in MO that got shut down- I don't know the full story, (I could be way off) but I believe the towns name was Times Beach; but I also believe some roads outside of my small town were affected also. Some guy from a waste oil company sprayed dioxin-contaminated oil to keep dust down on the dirt roads in the area. There's a HUGE metal building in my area (MO) that was built and sealed up to contain some of the waste that was around here.
I love the title of this post (lovely modern homes). Seems like an oxymoron to me. In my opinion most of these Lovely modern homes belong in a landfill.
Kipherr
"In my opinion most of these Lovely modern homes belong in a landfill."--Posted by KIPHERRheh, that is pretty funny now that you point it out______________________________________________
--> measure once / scribble several lines / spend some time figuring out wich scribble / cut the wrong line / get mad
Or in the Love Canal.
Confucius (a local soils engineer is actually named Confucius!) say:
“Cut corners on soil samples; You may end up in quicksand”
Can you picture a year later when they decide to plant a tree in the front yard?"Live Free, not Die"
Around Kelowna in B.C. a developer bought this chunk of land and started to build only thing was the local vets had been burying dead animals on it for years. The dogs, cats etc. were still in plastic bags so when they excavated nothing was really rotted just well preserved. What a mess.
Another on going criminal case is the Pig Farm near Vancouver. This fellow had a pig farm and also ran a illegal night club out of his house. A very rough crowd patronized the place. About 30 missing women have been traced to the area and all what is left of them is what came out of a wood chipper. Whole raft loads of forensic students have been pouring over the land for the last 2-3 years. They think he fed parts of the women to his pigs, the guy is currently on trial for his serial killing.
Anyway this Pig Farm is smack in the middle of a new sub division of very nice houses. Every time they show the farm on TV in the back ground, a stone's throw away, are these new houses. Imagine looking out your living room window to see acres of field sown with human bone chips?
Around Kelowna in B.C. a developer bought this chunk of land and started to build only thing was the local vets had been burying dead animals on it for years. The dogs, cats etc. were still in plastic bags so when they excavated nothing was really rotted just well preserved. What a mess.
Wasn't real smart to put them in plastic bags, otherwise they probably would have composted to nearly nothing after a few years.
Saw a composting show on RFDTV where some folks compost dead critters. Frickin compost pile ate up a whole steer in like 4-6 months...except for a couple of the bigger bones. jt8
The reason so many people never get anywhere in life is because when opportunity knocks, they are out in the backyard looking for four-leaf clovers. -- Walter Percy Chrysler
So whats going ot happen when someone digs to put their pool in? Wouldn't the homeowner be able to get out of the purchased home or be compensated or something?
This thread is starting to sound like Poltergeist
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Have you seen my baseball?"
Got me, all I know is I wouldn't want to be involved in it.
He said after he got done digging the line the place looked like a war zone.
So what he did was put all the debri in a pile and left.
be not my job"Live Free, not Die"
Just called the plumber for an update and said he was told the builder was to have the exposed trashed hauled away and new dirt fill bought in to be placed in the trench.
Then just keep on, business as usual.
Plumber mentioned he'd found out that there are other developements in the area that are built on trash sites also.
be in bankruptcy in 5 years and living high on the hog in the Keys."Live Free, not Die"
Guy I built a house here for has parents in upstate NY. He grew up with an ever-expanding septic "system" of retired cars. Piped window to window. Seems his dad wouldn't spend but $50 (usually Fiats) and when they died, add to the septic (which never had a problem).
Finally public sewer came by and they hooked in. Feigned great surprise when the backhoe guy started pulling out cars in his trenching. They got hauled off a short distance to where somebody else needed fill.
To keep up the family tradition I added half an Oldsmobile behind a retaining wall at his new place (not part of his septic). Told him about it at his house-warming party. Thought he'd die laughing- couldn't wait to get his dad on the phone. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
All,
Well here in Milwaukee (not where I live, but close) the city condemns a lot of buildings. Basically knocks them down into the basement of the foundation, covers them up with fill, and nine times out of ten, the next door neighbor buys the covered up "lot" for $1.00. (adds to backyard space or for parking).
Now these are still considered "buildable" lots LOL. So any fool who buys one later LOL LOL LOL......
Jon
An update.
Just got off the phone with the plumber buddy in Okie and I had to ask he had anything more on the housing developement built on the trash dump.
He said he hadn't had anything to do with it but he'd been talking with another plumber who was working at one of the sites.
Seems they needed another ten foot of digging done in a yard so they could tie in a sewer and had a neighboring plumber who had his equipment on site come over to dig the trench longer.
He said the guy started digging and they came up with a bunch of syringes and medical waste being pulled up.
This seems so unbelievable to me. So you've got post-tension cables holding a slab foundation together while floating on trashbags.
Who says the pirate days were over.
be ahoy matey I'd like ta tie yas to the mast and stuffs trash in ye mouth till ya turns blue and suffocates
Hey rez...where in Okie is this place?? Got a buddythats in process of buying a place here but says something is strange about the site.....he can't put his finger on it though......If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Don't know for sure. Maybe out towards Indian Springs way.
Old city maps might show dump locations and then see where the new developements are now at.
The plumber told me there were other sites in Tulsa that were doing the same thing.
Thanks for the info...he's buying in the OKC metro and I was curious......never heard of Indian Springs and Tulsa's too far away........however..........thanks again.....If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
I was just going to say that down there they don't dig 4 foot down like around here so a 2 foot deep hole might tell you a lot.
It very well could indeed!!! I know if I were going to stay here and planned on building, I'd have a site survey done just based on some issues I've encountered and I'd be right there when the test pits were dug, I'm not relying on anyones say so down here. You wouldn't believe......................If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
I'm going to e-mail you...you got an address I can send a message to????If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Click on my name and an email selection will show.
BTW
Were you the Oklahoma licenseplate at the fest?
Nope...I wasn't there...my trucks got NY plates on it......If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
North of the expressway off 61rst near 193rd there abouts.
Funny I talked to him the other day and he told me more about the place and I stumble on this post just now.
Rez
You responding to posts from Aug of 2005 now! And the guy hasnt been on here since 10/05.
Doug
Edited 11/25/2007 9:41 pm ET by DougU
Hey, ya gotta cover everything.
Rez...ever hear of using post tension concrete for a basket ball court slab?? Ask me how!!!!!If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Is that the cables inside of a tube liner?
Spaghetti? The secret is in the sauce!
Hunts with garlic.
thats the stuff...my understanding of this method is that it relies on the footprint of a structure above it to keep the cables from springing like an arrestor cable in the event of the concrete cracking....lemme see....80,000 pounds of tension against 4000 pound mix, and then the concrete cracks...I think I'll play basketball somewhere else......
Going to research this issue some more this weekend.....I think the whole thing spells disaster........maybe it's just my complaining nature though......If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Don't know much about it except there are real horror stories involving those foundation slabs where someone forgot to go back and adjust the tension in time.
be twanging a cement guitar
Spaghetti? The secret is in the sauce!
Hunts with garlic.
"my understanding of this method is that it relies on the footprint of a structure above it to keep the cables from springing like an arrestor cable in the event of the concrete cracking...."
Not so....the weight above the slab generally doesn't have any effect. Any beam....think of a slab as a very wide, very shallow beam...is in compression at the top side & in tension at the bottom side. the Post Tension cable holds the concrete in the bottom half together againt the tension trying to spread it apart...on the top. since concrete is very strong on compression, no cables required....
Now, if you happen to cut one of those puppies, like for instance when core drilling to relocate a drain, you better not be standing at the edge of the slab, cause the cut end will take you head off as it comes out of the hole....
Funny part is, we nicked on yesterday...a good core man looks for the smurf from the black plastic casing, even when the x-ray film shows him he's in the right place...the cable was just below the top surface of the slab, where it isn't doing a bit of good....sort of like mesh that ends up at the bottom of a pour...
Thanks for the input...had a sort of busy weekend and didn't get the chance to review. Will try and do research tonight........thanks again....If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
""my understanding of this method is that it relies on the footprint of a structure above it to keep the cables from springing like an arrestor cable in the event of the concrete cracking...."
Not so....the weight above the slab generally doesn't have any effect. Any beam....think of a slab as a very wide, very shallow beam...is in compression at the top side & in tension at the bottom side. the Post Tension cable holds the concrete in the bottom half together againt the tension trying to spread it apart...on the top. since concrete is very strong on compression, no cables required...."Yes, if you tension up that very long, very shallow beam without the weight of the house on it what keeps the beam (slab) from buckeling up like an accorden?
well for one , the comprssive strenth of the concrete....hey, I'm not claiming to be an engineer here, just trying to give the simple explanation of beams tension/compression properties, and the concept of post tension......
The pirate days aren't over everywhere, obviously.
Lemme see, pour concrete on 1 ft of fill thats over top of an old landfill, no wonder concrete cracks....post tensioned concrete?? Not that I've seen down here on residential construction, some commercial stuff maybe. Hell, they don't even use mesh or rebar in crete for residential down here, at least out of the half dozen residential contractors I've seen working in the area.
Hope with all the work they're doing on I-40 in the OKC area they're doing a better job of engineering.......If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Happens a lot round here in Florida. A legacy of Florida being a rural state, outside a few cities, before WW2 and AC. Folks back then just took their trash out to the back woods and, if you were highly civilized, burned and buried the remainder, still do in some areas. The uncouth sorts just dropped it on the ground outside of the line of sight, mostly.When Florida grew a bit, but before things got settled enough for NIMBY to set in, industries, the military and road contractors did much the same. The solution to pollution was dilution and it is made all the more acceptable if you throw a few inches of dirt over it so no eyes are offended.Problem is people bought into the whole fun in the sun routine and the 'buying swampland in Florida' joke got old and lost traction. Especially that now we figured out how to do mother nature one better and convert useless habitats to profitable tract housing. Now owning a hundred acres of swamp is a bragging point. Birds, crabs, and fish breeding stocks don't buy houses so they don't get a vote. By the time they do the builders will have moved on. I suppose humanity will pay that bill collectively at least those who can't afford to move to Mars will.People want houses, lots of houses, builders want money, lots of money. That the house get built on trash or hazardous waste dumps or swamp bottom that washes away when it rains or sand dunes that drift after the vegetation is destroyed and the wind blows gets overlooked. The promise of happy leisure in Florida and a $200,000 house that you can get a $400,000 loan on, aren't rising housing prices, values?, grand?, is the ultimate happy drug. It numbs the brain and induces irrationality. Or is it the heavy metals and industrial wastes leaching into the drinking water? Maybe the fumes from the rotting garbage. Maybe its the interesting tilt the houses assume as the slab cracks, leaks and settles that induces the irrational state. Quick, sell it to the nearest sucker awash in his first 'rising value', 'you can't lose' high.IMHO as long as we keep looking at the symptoms and think they are the cause we will never get a handle on what is going on. Without recognizing the problem we will never even attempt a solution. A bill is being recorded, line by line, item by item it grows. We don't know when but eventually the bill will come due. But we live in a toilet society. Those who produce the most waste. Those who sit on the shiny white pot are not the same folks who live where the effluent comes out. Work the handle and down it goes. Out of sigh, out of mind. It is such a shock when it resurfaces under a home. A foreshadowing of what is to come on a much larger scale.
Funny you should say that.
I few years back I was living out of state and still periodically working here on my 'cottage in the north'. bwaa!
I get back here to learn that sometime a hunter had discovered some 55gallon drums in an old gravelpit in the neighborhood and reported it somewhere.
So EPA arrives to do testing only to discover, besides the deteriorating above ground drums, a large number that had been buried. Needless to say all spewing there contents out onto the soil.
I've a brook that runs behind my place on it's way to Lake Erie, that same waterway 1/2 to 3/4 mile from behind the chem site on it's way to the bottom of the basin so the EPA had drilled test wells at numerous places along the way to monitor how far the chemicals had spread.
I don't recall what the chemicals leeching are as I'm trying to put the thing out of my mind, but there were some nasties in there.
They drilled the wells something like 5 or 6 years back and nothing more is ever said save an occasional letter to the editor from someone inquiring about the 55 gallon drums still sitting exposed in the old weed and brush laden landfill.
At least some plants can still grow nearby.
Guys, don't get me started. I'm jaded and in a bad mood this morning. Friggin' poison ivy on the legs suck.
be a shade of jade
as Buddha said to the hotdog vendor .... "make me one with everything"
rez
Guys, don't get me started. I'm jaded and in a bad mood this morning. Friggin' poison ivy on the legs suck.
You have my deepest sympathy! Man I haven't had that for a few years now but I remember it makes you feel like cutting your leg off.
It'll all be gone it a couple weeks!
couple weeks.
Thanks Doug, I really need to be reminded of my future. bwaa!
be wishing the government would mandate all toxic waste must kill poison ivy
as Buddha said to the hotdog vendor .... "make me one with everything"
Re: "I'm jaded and in a bad mood this morning. Friggin' poison ivy on the legs suck."Diphenhydramine, Benedril is a brand name, has worked for me to take the edge off the itch. It is a widely used and relatively safe, OTC, anti-histamine. Also acts as a sleeping pill. Not a bad thing when the real cure for what ails you is time.If it gets too bad get in touch with a doctor. They can prescribe prednisone or other strong steroidals that are the heavy artillery for the itch, swelling and weeping, both kinds.You probably know this but I'll post it for any that don't. Wear long sleeve shirts and long pants in any are that could have poison ivy. Don't count on your ability to spot it. Had a friend who was a horticulture major who was well familiar with poison ivy. Came back from his camping trip covered with the stuff. As he put it:'poison ivy has a highly variable configuration that can look very much like many other plants. And the stuff in the mountains of Georgia doesn't look much like the stuff in Florida. At least until your in the middle of it.' Or something along those lines.Don't forget to wash any clothes, gloves, tools or boots separately from the normal stuff. Also wash the dogs. Dogs, or so I read, are immune to poison ivy but the oil gets on their fur and so onto you. For days after. So Fido gets a bath.Poison ivy is a big issue for utility linemen. They have been issuing a cream that is applied prior to exposure: Ivy Block. http://www.ivyblock.com/ivyblock.phpGood stuff. Available online or at better drug stores. I keep a bottle on the truck. Not cheap but I only treat my forearms, wrists and hands so a bottle last a long time. A scrub with soap and water after I think I might have been exposed is wise and I do it, mostly. I keep an old canvas laundry bag in the truck to stuff the exposed cloths into. Also helps to remind me wash them separately. When I was trenching in a underground feeder through the woods we went smack through a huge patch of poison ivy. Using the ditch witch we hit rocks. largish round ones that had to be pulled out by hand. So there in the middle of the patch of poison ivy we had to lay on our bellies and reach down through the severed roots dripping with thick white blobs of sap. Such concentrated exposure can require the exposed clothing to be washed several times to get it all off. Even though everyone wore work gloves and long sleeves almost everyone, including a few claiming they were immune to it, got some rash. Thankfully only small patches.Boss was good about it. He, actually his wife, set up a screened wash area and provided spare cloths to those less prepared. Everyone took a turn getting naked, sprayed with detergent from a five gallon pump up sprayer scrub and rinse. She took the clothes of the guys without access to a washing machine and returned them a couple of days later clean and folded. I think this procedure saved him a lot of trouble. And likely a few workman's comp claims for disabling exposure. A really bad case can put you in the hospital.Good folks. Always looked out for their crews.
I can deal with the itch. Morning comes and coffeed up til I'm in go mode then I'm not aware of the itch as it just becomes a sensation.
Just so it doesn't spread. I clean it with mineral spirits to cut the oils then pop the blisters and bleach it. Must have a thing for pain.
be pained
as Buddha said to the hotdog vendor .... "make me one with everything"
Wash with Ivory soap and do so throughout the day.
If that dont work try a dip in hot acid!
Oh, forget about sleep
If it really becomes necessary I can always bring out the big gun and start brewing up the ol' jewel weed tea.
Nasty tasting stuff but will get the job done.
as Buddha said to the hotdog vendor .... "make me one with everything"
Fels Naptha soap works really well to stop the spread. The best stuff though is Tecnu. I feel for ya!!
Recently read a paper on poison ivy that said that research had shown that once the initial rash was washed the contents of the blisters contained none of the oil that caused the rash. That the idea that the fluid in the blisters caused further rashes was a wives tale.That what people were seeing was usually exposure to contaminated clothing, tools or other materials. Same article pointed out that pets and things like boots were a frequent source of spread long after the initial contact.A doctor recommended simple zinc oxide ointment as being good for the sores. Seemed to work about as well as anything else. I would apply it frequently. Seemed to prevent the usual scab, crack and weep cycle that is frustratingly slow in finishing. The open wounds also being subject to infection that further slows their progress. I suspect it mostly kept the scabs moist and flexible so they didn't crack. The zinc may slightly speed healing and has some antibacterial and antifungal properties.Once the oil is removed I would avoid anything that irritate the tissues. I would avoid the bleach as it likely irritates the skin and slows the healing unless diluted heavily.Any way you handle it I hope it heals quickly for you. Poison ivy is hateful stuff. A real PITA.
Well hey, thank's for the data. Can't say I understand the 'none of' but those folks probably studied it more complete with proper tools.
Two days I'd been cleaning the patch on the left knee with spirits, prick open then bleach. Shorts only never covered. Going ok then I sleep and realize I'm in fetal position and left knee is touching right knee.
Next day the arrival of a patch on the right knee at that place of contact. Maybe it's just a false symptom from going mental.
Course when it rains it pours and yesterday something bit me on the other side of the right knee. I look down and see a half dollar size swelling like a giant mosquito bite.
The swelling leaves but then I end up walking with a limp so I'm thinking the poison went into the muscle.Must have been a wasp or hornet.
Gee, I wonder how exciting it can get today. Glad there's no rattler's or brown recluse up this way.
be 'course there was that time in the 70s trying to surf in Cal. How in the hell a seasnake with a broken neck got in my swimtrunks I'll never know.
as Buddha said to the hotdog vendor .... "make me one with everything"
Recently read a paper on poison ivy that said that research had shown that once the initial rash was washed the contents of the blisters contained none of the oil that caused the rash. That the idea that the fluid in the blisters caused further rashes was a wives tale.
rez
I know that this is no comfort to you but that's the way that I have always understood it. It was explained to me by a physician. The liquid inside the blisters is not going to cause a spread of the poison ivy. The only thing that can spread it is more of the oil from the plant.
I completly clean or destroy anything that might have came in contact with the ivy plant.
Sometimes you will get more patches because the reaction time differs from place to place. Also you might be coming in contact with some of the oil, perhaps on your shoes or a belt or some thing that you didn't think to clean.
Oh, maybe I should revise my estimated time for it to be over for an additional week or two! Sorry
Doug
Condolences to you.
I am pretty allergic to this stuff and get it almost annually. Once got a bad case of poison sumac that had blisters the size of quarters, kept me home for a week, and that was after the doctor visit. When I finally went in to the office, the boss came in and sent me home. Seems the secretaries got sick looking at me. They put papers on my desk to review or sign, and the yech from the blisters on my arms was getting everything wet.
One thing that I have found helpful. If I see a small patch of Poison ivy breaking out with a few blisters, I take a handful of kosher salt and rub it over the area, break the blisters open. It doesn't hurt, actually feels good sometimes. Generally once the blisters are open, they scab over and heal up. (Don't know that I would have the daring to try this on a big patch, might just stick with popping them one at a time.) I am not a doctor and have never seen this in any medical text, just know it works for me.
My reading on the ooze is the same as the other guys, it don't spread anything. That's just the body's reaction (white cells etc.) to the dermatitis.
Good luck to you. Don
Well I've got to express gratitude to you, 4lorn and doug for sharing the skinny on ivy rash. Wash clothes well.
I do recall getting some from the dog before. This damnable stuff is ugly.
Thanks to all.
be now if I can just get the truth about teflon on frying pans
as Buddha said to the hotdog vendor .... "make me one with everything"
be now if I can just get the truth about teflon on frying pans
I've heard that stuff causes a skin rash not unlike Poison Ivy!!!
Here I am sitting so depressed.
All my life believing a lie about poison ivy.That it can spread on yer skin by itself. Always being paranoid about it touching something.
All that wasted effort on being so worrisome over the freakin' stuff.
If I'd known all I ever had to do was tough it out instead of being so attentive to detail things would have been so much easier.
Hate when that happens.
Believed another lie.
Makes me wonder what else.
be lyin' in weight
as Buddha said to the hotdog vendor .... "make me one with everything"
off gassing from cooking with it will make yur parrot sick or dead...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I am on my way to hell.
Yesterday, deciding to break down and scratch the itches, I did.
Today new outbreaks. ^#$%#*
I'm headin' for the jewelweed tea.
Nice knowin' y'all.
be Jimmy Dickens: I'm just a simple guyBut there's one thing sure as shootin'I hate those folks that think that they'reSo doggone high fa lutinI'd be the same in HollywoodOr right in my own kitchenI believe in fussin' when you're madAnd scratchin' when you're itchin'.
as Buddha said to the hotdog vendor .... "make me one with everything"
Sorry to hear your not through the outbreak stage and into the hideous, well less hideous than the mixed weepy ones, but painless scabby stage. Have you ever considered drinking heavily? A friend claimed that a few puffs on a joint every four hours or so helped the itching, I suspect he slept through the worse of it.Did you give the zinc oxide ointment a try. Worked pretty well for me. I found that diphenhydramine and washcloth run under very hot water, don't burning yourself, worked pretty well for controlling the itch. The heat overwhelms the nerves, for a time. I found it is great for those times I couldn't get the itch off my mind and was getting flustered. Helped to break the cycle. Long enough to roll one and pour a double.A couple of friends have gone the MD route and found that the steroids worked wonders very quickly. Mostly just takes out the itch but it also reduces the swelling which may speed healing. Best, quick and cheap, place for the medical help for simple stuff, IMHO, is any of the Urgent Care walk-in clinics. These are like ER lite. Walk in and see a doctor in ten minutes, get the script and out in a couple more. Costs around $50. Might be a bit more now. Still a bargain compared to the $300 minimum at an ER. The family doctor might be as cost effective but who has a real family doctor any more?On the up side:
"Poison ivy does have its good points:• It feeds wild birds and animals who eat it without ill effects.
• It holds the earth very well against erosion near the ocean.
• Native Americans had medical uses for it.And we probably don't know enough about it to know what is it's true value for nature or for man."
On the down side:"According to study about global warming at Cornell, "weedy vines like kudzu, honeysuckle and poison ivy could increase by as much as 70 percent with higher concentrations of carbon dioxide, the main greenhouse gas that’s driving global warming. Among the plants expected to do particularly well in an environment rich in carbon dioxide is ragweed."From: http://www.poison-ivy.org/html/faq.htmIf you want to see that there are others in the same boat, some might be worse off, check out: http://www.poison-ivy.org/rash/index.htmIt gives you a buffer page before the horrors. The first one is one of the worse. Some small and simple, but still undoubtedly itchy and annoying, some far worse than anything I ever had. Some are smallish but in really unfortunate places, like the back of the knee.Hang in there. Hope you get scabby and crusty real soon. LOL. Let us know how it is going.
http://landscaping.about.com/od/weedsdiseases/a/cure_poison_ivy.htm
Well, Just got done picking the jewelweed, boiled down a batch for tea, and got out the old archaic piece of american ingenuity 'the Juicerator' and as I first smelled the pungent odors of juiced nature, memories from way back it in the days of youth flooded over me.
Recalled the carrot juice and other raw vegetable juicefasts and the insolent rage of youthful intelligence that first caused me to attempt a garden picked, stalk and all, mug of fresh produced pure onion juice which made it about half way down my throat as I headed outside stopping short as I chucked it up on the screen door.
The gawd awful tasting tea will circulate and the pure extract will be applied directly.
I have the first cup of tea before me and I'm having a hard time bringing myself to drink it.
In the event any show disapproval of having a poisonivy thread in 'general discussion', this ivy was bought to me courtesy of the Farmhouse From Hell.
edited to add I ain't hit a doob since '78 so that's out of the question but the tea can be done alright with cold cider as a chaser.
be thinking I should have added some hamburger to these beans
as Buddha said to the hotdog vendor .... "make me one with everything"
Edited 8/28/2005 2:42 pm ET by rez
Hmm. Always heard of the jewel weed being applied topically. One source, I went online to refresh my memory of poison ivy related information, recommends alcohol to remove the oil from the poison ivy. He recommended washing the exposed areas in it but I suppose running a little inside might also be beneficial. To the mind if not the body.I wouldn't worry much about the thread drifting into poison ivy or it not being appropriate to a builder's forum. At most it might be good to start another thread. Poison Ivy is a major issue in the building trades. Anyone who works or plays outdoors anywhere in the continental US, other than the desert SW, is at risk for poison ivy. The stuff is everywhere. I have seen people prepping foundation pours get it even when there wasn't anything green for a hundred feet. Come to find out there was a large patch of poison ivy and the bulldozer just sheared off the foliage. The stalks and root, oozing with sap, were left sticking up.The other point is that while people who don't work outdoors may still think poison ivy is a kid's thing and a minor one at that anyone who has had it in any but the most minor case as an adult or seen others in a crew get it knows it can be debilitating. Loss of sleep and concentration would wear anyone down. Better men than I have resorted to a week long drunk to avoid the suffering. I think that a discussion of poison ivy, with an eye toward the informative side, is entirely appropriate to a building forum.
Well I got to thinkin'.
Ever get to thinkin'?
No brainer was washing the clothes. But the boots completely went right by me.
Time them boats got the alcohol rinse and a good soap down. Bet they are the villain.
As a side note the amazing thing. Jewelweed tea with a pure cider chaser comes out with a vague taste similar to spearmint.
be double your pleasure double your fun...
as Buddha said to the hotdog vendor .... "make me one with everything"
Edited 8/28/2005 7:28 pm ET by rez
Re: "Jewelweed tea with a pure cider chaser comes out with a vague taste similar to spearmint."Good thing to know. I don't drink or smoke funny cigarettes any more but I bet if you were to mix that with some bourbon you might be able to make a decent mint julep. Trick to making a decent mint julep out of poor ingredients is to mix in more bourbon.Two or four tall ones of those and your rash might seem much more tolerable.
rez
I completely clean or destroy anything that might have came in contact with the ivy plant
This is what I said back in post # 74, You gotta follow directions better!
Feeling bad for ya man.
Doug
Clean everything is a good goal to shoot for but it can get mighty hard. Everyone, at a subconscious level, thinks their boots, and a lot of other things, are automatically self cleaning. Real men don't worry about mud and crud. They go stomping on through it to get the job done.The persistent oil from a poison ivy plant is more like radioactive contamination. You mostly can't see or smell it. You don't know anything has been contaminated until a rash breaks out after you touch it and even then it can be delayed by ten days. A completely different mindset from normal when we walk around thinking we are tough enough to suck it up.Ideally all clothing, tools and materials would get bundled off and be decontaminated once ivy was seen. Good practice for a chemical attack I guess. But who has the time. Also a half dozen overweight, Neanderthal looking guys getting naked is sure to disturb the neighbors. Many civilized folks get freaked out by a little 'plumbers crack'. Things start looking like a naked biker rally and the SWAT team is likely to get invited.We all just do the best we can and hope determination and enthusiasm will make the good things happen. Mostly it works. But unfortunately that means that sometimes we get caught short. Boots and other details get forgotten. Who knows maybe Rez's boots are not the source of contamination. Could be something as seemingly innocuous as the truck upholstery. If the clothing get heavily contaminated and the driver doesn't remove them the seat cover could be contaminated. Then every time someone gets in the seat and has exposed skin they are at risk of picking some of it up. The oils can be active for well over a year.Contaminated tools, clothing or hands could transfer to the steering wheel, stick or armrest. And from there virtually anywhere.
The oils can be active for well over a year.
That's scarry!
I have a sever allergy to poison ivy, haven't had it for several years now. Any time I think I come in contact with it I head for the shower immediately. All clothing into the wash and the shoes get washed with soapy water.
I had no idea that the oil could be active for such a long period.
Remember once having it all over my legs, BIL is an ER doc(translation, free medical help), he gave me some hormone pills, if I remember right you took 7 first day, 6 the second day,..........
BIL said that the rash still had to run its course but the hormones would reduce the severity. I don't know if the pills helped or not, it was pure misery.
Man that is some of the worst stuff to get, at least for me.
Doug
Thanks a lot guys.
Ya'll got me looking over my shoulder now.
be will I be dead before morning?
as Buddha said to the hotdog vendor .... "make me one with everything"
A bottle of 'Old Granddad' should get you though the night. Sometimes life is all about just getting through the night.
can I have your EZ cutting guide thingamajig.
You wont need it!
No, but you can have my Bud.
New outbreaks.Damn man, I've never had it this bad before.
as Buddha said to the hotdog vendor .... "make me one with everything"
Edited 8/29/2005 7:36 am ET by rez
You better go see a doc. not that psychologist you been seeing either, a real medical doc.
Go to a doc only for extremes like bad broken bones.
be psyched out
as Buddha said to the hotdog vendor .... "make me one with everything"
I found my own cure. You're not gonna like it, but it works. Ivory soap or what they call 'brown soap', a stiff nylon scrub brush or a fine brass bristled brush, and running warm water.
Run the water (it can almost be hot) over the blisters and when the skin gets warm and the oil is loose in the blisters take the brush and break the blisters and scrub that f&#@ing ivy with the brush & soap constantly keeping it under the water till you bleed and everything is raw. Take a wash cloth and wash the entire area hard with the soap and water. Pat dry and dress the wound.
It can be painful and there will be quite the rash scar for a few days, but the ivy oil will be gone and so will that infernal itching which is a huge relief.
If the ivy gets just horrible, go see the doc. There are shots you can get for it.
So I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume water for the houses is not from a well...
Well... Man, I hope not. Can't imagine want the old pump would drag up, lol.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
Another update.
The folks that had bought the new house built on the floating slab over the trash dump has a forsale sign in the front yard.
be around around the mulberry bush
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
...which reminds me. A friend was digging a garden bed in a newish subdivision and -thunk- hit the edge of an inground pool just below the surface that nobody told them about. The newer lots are so small that the old pool is in four backyards.
Builder and previous owners can't really argue that historical records didn't include the pool.
The GC on a major residential development ran into the same sort of problem. It seems the site was long ago an unofficial dump, which the phase I EPA report failed to mention. Once the excavators started digging foundations & basements at a certain part of the site, they discovered that the "bearing soil" consisted of rusted cars, refrigerators, metal drums of god knows what, chunks of sidewalk, and yes, plastic bags of garbage. The site required major environmental remediation before that area could be built out.
That's what contingency funds are for, I guess.
Just sink some piers down about 100' and you should be OK ;)
jt8
The reason so many people never get anywhere in life is because when opportunity knocks, they are out in the backyard looking for four-leaf clovers. -- Walter Percy Chrysler
What's that stickin' to the auger? Dioxin sludge from that barrel we just drilled through?
Hey, made our depth!
Just sink some piers down
Hammered pilings, or drilled piers <g>?
Don't know if I'd want to have to explain to the pier drillers what happened to the auger, let alone the belling tool . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
It doesn't surprise me in the least. I'm in a community that use to be a large pond or small lake. I cannot imagine a proper geologic site survey was conducted and almost every home already built has had water infiltration in the basements and some of the more recent builds (which are also the most expensive in the neighborhood) have actually flooded because of water run-off.
I didn't realize what the site was as I found their aerial photographs about a year after I had closed. The images were dayed around 1990 and my home was built either late 1999 or early 2000, after the area was drained. Paid $250K for my home and they are (according to the sign I checked this morning) hitting $400K.
So, does the builder grade effectively? Does the builder put effective storm and or french drains arounf those properties that butt up against the neighborhood's perimeter? No, and no. Neighbor across the street from me has mud for a back yard a week after it rained. Good friend down the street has a new neighbor with a basement that flooded with rainwater to the tune of knee-high waters in his basement three times.
Two years ago the local news channels were having a field day on the ethics in planned developments that a) the counties were authorizing, and b) fly-by-night builders were engaged in.
Came across this lovely site in North Carolina. If they're using cars, etc. to hold up a riverbank can you imagine what's buried elsewhere? Youch! Sure would pay to have a site investigation done before you put a shovel in the ground.
Kevin